Howard should be dropped

dirkey_wynne

I know people were saying I was a bit harsh earlier when I criticised Timmy H, but he's just getting worse and worse. Now I know Silvestre was also to blame for that goal, but if Howard could just have held on to a relatively easy catch none of it would have happened. They both need to be dropped, and I'm hoping Silv will be when Rio gets back. But as for Howard, that's 4 goals I've counted this season for which he has been directly responsible. Norwich, Chelsea, Dinamo and now Bolton. It was atrocious.

PHB

I think hes a really good keeper in every area but his handling
The goal was slyvestres fault, with Howard failing to fix his mistake.
Slyvestre knows there is no way he can be dropped, that is until rio and brown are back.

I figure Fergie will drop him just to get some competition going.

dirkey_wynne

Well Brown is back, and had a good game at the w/end. I think he's as good a defender as Rio if he stays injury free. The goal was a mistake by both of them. Silv was more at fault admittedly - his first header up into the air was atrocious, and then he should have just either booted it clear, or let Howard regain possession as he scrambled to it. But Howards attempt to catch it in the first place was just not good enough, and as I say 4 goals now that he is directly at fault for - that's not good enough for a team like Utd. Even Bosnich didn't perform that badly.

The Muppet

dirkey_wynne wrote:

Well Brown is back, and had a good game at the w/end. I think he's as good a defender as Rio if he stays injury free. The goal was a mistake by both of them. Silv was more at fault admittedly - his first header up into the air was atrocious, and then he should have just either booted it clear, or let Howard regain possession as he scrambled to it. But Howards attempt to catch it in the first place was just not good enough, and as I say 4 goals now that he is directly at fault for - that's not good enough for a team like Utd. Even Bosnich didn't perform that badly.

Yep fergie should drop him after his mistake and shatter his confidence completely? Who should he put in goal then?

dirkey_wynne

The Muppet wrote:

Yep fergie should drop him after his mistake and shatter his confidence completely? Who should he put in goal then?

Do I really care about his confidence? I want someone competent, not confident in goal. Ricardo was never really given much of a chance, and had a good season out on loan last year. I don't think he's a long term solution, but for now I doubt he'd cost us as many goals as Howard has. Seriously 4 this season. In how many games? That's not good enough. 4 bad mistakes from a keeper costing you goals all year is bad enough, but at this early stage of the season?!

The Muppet

You do realise that confidence is very important to a goalkeeper. Do you not you think Fergie sees all the keepers in training and plays the one he considers to be the best? How many times have you seen Ricardo play?

Big Nelly

Carroll is better keeper than Howard! wasnt it last season that whenever Carroll played they didnt lose a game! not sure about Ricardo!!

dirkey_wynne

The Muppet wrote:

You do realise that confidence is very important to a goalkeeper. Do you not you think Fergie sees all the keepers in training and plays the one he considers to be the best? How many times have you seen Ricardo play?

I do realise confidence is important. But he's getting his game at the moment, regularly, and he's costing us goals. I haven't seen Ricardo play all that often, but I'd like to see him given his chance. And I know that Fergie sees them play, but I also know Fergie can also make mistakes. Like playing P. Nev. Playing Kleberson on the wing. Not signing someone to challenge Giggs. I just think Howard is not doing the business so a spell out of the side is needed - whether it would shatter his confidence or not!

talla

Unfortunately I remember Ricardo from the season before last and every single time he seemed to play he gave away a peno. Carrol is just as prone to mistakes as Howard. While I agree with most of what you say, I don't know how you can blame Howard for the Norwish goal. It was O'shea that went on his arse and carroll was beaten by a shot which he would have been very lucky to save.

dirkey_wynne

talla wrote:

Unfortunately I remember Ricardo from the season before last and every single time he seemed to play he gave away a peno. Carrol is just as prone to mistakes as Howard. While I agree with most of what you say, I don't know how you can blame Howard for the Norwish goal. It was O'shea that went on his arse and carroll was beaten by a shot which he would have been very lucky to save.

If you watch the Norwich goal again the shot was powerful but virtually straight at him. I'd expect a top class keeper to save that. Carroll does make a lot of mistakes, but if you check out his stats you'd be surprised how many clean sheets he's kept. As for Ricardo if I recall correctly he gave away a penalty on his debut, which he then went on to save, and I don't remember him giving away any more than that.

The Muppet

dirkey_wynne wrote:

I do realise confidence is important. But he's getting his game at the moment, regularly, and he's costing us goals. I haven't seen Ricardo play all that often, but I'd like to see him given his chance. And I know that Fergie sees them play, but I also know Fergie can also make mistakes. Like playing P. Nev. Playing Kleberson on the wing. Not signing someone to challenge Giggs. I just think Howard is not doing the business so a spell out of the side is needed - whether it would shatter his confidence or not!

He has also made some fantastic saves in recent matches His confidence is definitely suffering from playing behind a makeshift defence. Silvester should have cleared the ball on saturday when Howard dropped it so he was also at fault.I agree Utd defence is not what it should be but blaming it on Howard is wide of the mark IMO and I think dropping him would do lasting damage to his united career . I believe in the long term he has what it takes to be a top class keeper I may be wrong but if Fergie drops him now and shatters his confidence we may never find out or worse still find out when he is playing for one of our competitors.

dirkey_wynne

The Muppet wrote:

He has also made some fantastic saves in recent matches His confidence is definitely suffering from playing behind a makeshift defence. Silvester should have cleared the ball on saturday when Howard dropped it so he was also at fault.I agree Utd defence is not what it should be but blaming it on Howard is wide of the mark IMO and I think dropping him would do lasting damage to his united career . I believe in the long term he has what it takes to be a top class keeper I may be wrong but if Fergie drops him now and shatters his confidence we may never find out or worse still find out when he is playing for one of our competitors.

I agree about Silvestre - as you'll see from the first post. And I totally agree that Howards confidence is low, playing behind a defence which isn't doing the business. But if you look at the Chelsea and Norwich games in particular - only once each did those teams truly breach the Utd defence. And they scored on both occasions - goals for which Howard was at fault. If he is the type of player who deserves to be at Utd, dropping him should spur him on, not destroy him. We need players with character, who respond when the chips are down. Fair enough he has made some good saves lately, but what's the point of making good saves if you're making elementary errors? God knows Barthez used to pull off some outstanding saves - he used to make saves he had no right to (something Howard doesn't do imho). But it was the errors that cost him his Utd career.

dirkey_wynne

By the way, the following is a quote from Fergie, taken from www.manutd.com which I believe they got from MUTV after the game. I myself agree Silv was massively at fault - and had an appalling game, but even Fergie knows....

Sir Alex Ferguson wrote:

Disappointed With The Ref
"The referee made some major decisions today and I'll be having a chat with the referee's observer in the week and making my views known to him. Bolton got a break with their first goal because I didn't think it was a foul by Phil Neville in the first place and I wasn't sure whether Nolan might have been offside when Okocha took the initial shot. And then for their second goal, I thought we should have had a free-kick, not them. Nevertheless, Tim should have dealt with it better."

talla

dirkey_wynne wrote:

If you watch the Norwich goal again the shot was powerful but virtually straight at him. I'd expect a top class keeper to save that. Carroll does make a lot of mistakes, but if you check out his stats you'd be surprised how many clean sheets he's kept. As for Ricardo if I recall correctly he gave away a penalty on his debut, which he then went on to save, and I don't remember him giving away any more than that.

Yes and Howard would keep a lot of clean sheets if he played behind a decent defence. I don't think any of Uniteds keepers stand out from each other. By the way, Ricardo also gave away a penno against Macaibi Haifa when the match was played in Cyprus. Also gave away a penno against blackburn within minutes of coming on as a half time substitute in 2003(was at that match) and Im nearly sure theres another time I saw him taking down a player to give away a penno. The 2002/2003 season before Howard was signed, Fergie dropped Barthez after a couple of his howlers and gave Carroll his chance for the rest of the season. Carroll produced his own set of howlers that were just as bad if not worse than Barthez. Thats why Fergie went out and signed Howard.

The Muppet

dirkey_wynne wrote:

By the way, the following is a quote from Fergie, taken from www.manutd.com which I believe they got from MUTV after the game. I myself agree Silv was massively at fault - and had an appalling game, but even Fergie knows....

i

Fergie is wrong on the first two Nolan was onside and I didn,t see any foul on the second goal. On his third point I am not arguing that Howard was not at fault for the second goal he clearly was, I just don't think we have a better keeper to call on at the moment and think dropping Howard at this time could be counter productive.

dirkey_wynne

talla wrote:

Yes and Howard would keep a lot of clean sheets if he played behind a decent defence. I don't think any of Uniteds keepers stand out from each other. By the way, Ricardo also gave away a penno against Macaibi Haifa when the match was played in Cyprus. Also gave away a penno against blackburn within minutes of coming on as a half time substitute in 2003(was at that match) and Im nearly sure theres another time I saw him taking down a player to give away a penno. The 2002/2003 season before Howard was signed, Fergie dropped Barthez after a couple of his howlers and gave Carroll his chance for the rest of the season. Carroll produced his own set of howlers that were just as bad if not worse than Barthez. Thats why Fergie went out and signed Howard.

But did Carroll not keep clean sheets regularly while playing for Utd, behind Utd's defence? I'm not his greatest fan either, not by a long shot. I know he contributed some howlers, but Howards howlers now number 4 in how many games this year?? 8. That's just not good enough.

dirkey_wynne

The Muppet wrote:

i

Fergie is wrong on the first two Nolan was onside and I didn,t see any foul on the second goal. On his third point I am not arguing that Howard was not at fault for the second goal he clearly was, I just don't think we have a better keeper to call on at the moment and think dropping Howard at this time could be counter productive.

I see your point. What's Steele like? Gone on loan to Coventry I see, but an underage England keeper. I am of the opinion a drop may give Howard a boot up the a*se, and hopefully wouldn't destroy his confidence.As for Fergie being wrong, he said "I wasn't sure whether Nolan might have been offside" so that's not wrong - he's said he wasn't sure. As for it not being a foul for the first goal, I've watched the replay many times and it certainly wasn't a foul. Not sure what foul he's talking about for the 2nd goal though.

PHB

Steele is good, I've seen him play a couple of times, but for a goalie hes very young, it would be liek playing a 16 year old up front.

If you want to look at it from Fergie's point of view

Ricardo just isn't good enough at the high level.

Howard vs. Caroll, both make silly mistakes but Howard is younger so its better to let him play.
I think a lot of his mistakes come from lack of experience.
A lot of his spills are because hes trying to control balls which no keeper could, and instead of knocking them wide or away he tries to control them.

The Chelsea goal was Keanes fault if anyones fault

cournioni

Silvestre has to be dropped above anyone else. He was at fault for a number of goals this season already. Look at the goal against Blackburn for example. Brutal defending. He really needs to be dropped. O'Shea hasn't played the best in the last while but he is alot better than Silvestre.

dirkey_wynne

PORNAPSTER wrote:

Silvestre has to be dropped above anyone else. He was at fault for a number of goals this season already. Look at the goal against Blackburn for example. Brutal defending. He really needs to be dropped. O'Shea hasn't played the best in the last while but he is alot better than Silvestre.

Totally agreed about Silvestre. He's carrying his Euro 2004 form into the season for Utd. He's always been prone to errors but of late he's been appalling. He was lucky at the w/end he wasn't severely punished for his lacklustre performance - the amount of times he gave the ball away was incredible. Bring back Rio and Gary. A settled defence of Gary, Rio, Wes and Gabriel will do me nicely, with Spector, Silvestre and O'Shea all ready in the wings. All I can say is, at this rate I hope Silv is lining up for Les Bleus against The Boys in Green next month!

eirebhoy

The Muppet wrote:

and I didn,t see any foul on the second goal.

I could be wrong here but before the ball got anywhere near the box (it was probably still in Man U's half), I saw Fergie shouting for some reason and the Bolton fans were also whistling (which would explain the "I thought we should have had a free-kick, not them. I'd like to see the goal again.

BTW, dirkey_wynne, I assume he said this in an interview just after the match as he would have seen Nolan was onside if it was in a MUTV interview.

PHB

Hey lets not go nuts, Silvestre is still a really good defender, its just he needs a kick in the ass

Neville - Rio - Silvestre - Heinze will be a great defence

The liverpool game is the make or break of the season I think
If United show up and play how they can, then the entire season will turn around, if they lose or draw, it'll be hard to recover

dirkey_wynne

eirebhoy wrote:

BTW, dirkey_wynne, I assume he said this in an interview just after the match as he would have seen Nolan was onside if it was in a MUTV interview.

He did indeed.

dirkey_wynne

PHB wrote:

Hey lets not go nuts, Silvestre is still a really good defender, its just he needs a kick in the ass

Neville - Rio - Silvestre - Heinze will be a great defence

The liverpool game is the make or break of the season I think
If United show up and play how they can, then the entire season will turn around, if they lose or draw, it'll be hard to recover

I think he's good. Not really good. He's prone to way too many mistakes - always have been. Even at the start of last season, with himself and Rio playing regularly, I really couldn't believe we had the best defence, and kept so many clean sheets, as Silv was making so many mistakes. His concentration span seems extremely poor imo. I think Wes is a far better defender than him. He looked rusty for his first few games back at the end of last season, but after that he was top class. I think himself and Rio should be played, but I think Fergie prefers the balance of a left footed and right footed pairing back there.

The Muppet

I though Silvestre had a good season up to Rios ban and I know from reading dedicated United Forums the guys that go to the matches and so see him in the flesh rated him as one of uniteds best players up to that. He was exceptionally poor satuarday and but for Heinzes intervention would have gifted Bolton another Goal. That said teams defend as a unit so when one part is missing its easy for that unit to look bad. I would wait until we field our strongest defence is played and see how that goes before calling for players to be dropped.

dirkey_wynne

The Muppet wrote:

I though Silvestre had a good season up to Rios ban and I know from reading dedicated United Forums the guys that go to the matches and so see him in the flesh rated him as one of uniteds best players up to that. He was exceptionally poor satuarday and but for Heinzes intervention would have gifted Bolton another Goal. That said teams defend as a unit so when one part is missing its easy for that unit to look bad. I would wait until we field our strongest defence is played and see how that goes before calling for players to be dropped.

Well 3 friends of mine are season ticket holders at OT. They're all Rio fans. Not Micky. They say Rio does an incredible amount of organising. Which is plain for all to see - especially with the shambles the defence became after his ban. But the fact is Silv makes an incredible amount of mistakes, and even with Rio in the team he was making them. I just personally think Wes is the better player, and would be happier to see himself and Rio at the back.

Dewey

I dont think Howard should be dropped. I think he is still a great keeper going throw a bad time just like the United defence and once Rio, O'Shea Brown are back to full fitness then i think we will see the true United.

I do think Silvestre should be dropped for a game or two, just to give him a rest. I wouldnt mind see a back four of Neville-Rio-Heinze-Silvestre
I think that would be very strong but the Rio/Silvestre worked really well until Rio got banned last year.

smemon

he shouldnt be dropped for making a few errors, he's saved us many a time and indeed won us games and got us points. all keepers have howlers, theres not one keeper i can think of that hasnt messed up a simple save.

silvestre is a shambles, like silvestre of years ago when he 1st came in, but i think thats down to ferdinand, them 2 look solid side by side and its a case of ferdinand making silvestre look good.

communication between keeper and defence needs to be better, again rio is key there too, howard isnt a fierce keeper with a voice like the legend before him so thats why we see 1 or 2 mix ups.

Big Ears

Barthez isn't the type with a voice either .

smemon

Big Ears wrote:

Barthez isn't the type with a voice either .

true but i think we know who i was talking about. if barthez would cut out the outfield play he'd actually be a good keeper and we wouldnt have been forced to sell him.

howard is as good as anyone at the minute and doesnt just become bad overnight.

dirkey_wynne

smemon wrote:

true but i think we know who i was talking about. if barthez would cut out the outfield play he'd actually be a good keeper and we wouldnt have been forced to sell him.

howard is as good as anyone at the minute and doesnt just become bad overnight.

I'm not sure he's as good as anyone. I think Chelsea for example have 2 better keepers on their books. Robinson is quite a good up and coming keeper in my opinion. And Given I would rate higher than Howard.

Jivin Turkey

smemon wrote:

howard is as good as anyone at the minute and doesnt just become bad overnight.

Cudicini
Cech
Niemi
Robinson
Jaaskalinen
Kirkland
Given

I would all rate ahead of Howard at the moment. Dudek has made a few howlers and Lehmann probably less, so I would probably put them ahead of him too.

Having said that unfortunately for Fergie none of these play at United, so he should probably stick with him.

donhughberto

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Cudicini
Cech
Niemi
Robinson
Jaaskalinen
Kirkland
Given

I would all rate ahead of Howard at the moment. Dudek has made a few howlers and Lehmann probably less, so I would probably put them ahead of him too.

Having said that unfortunately for Fergie none of these play at United, so he should probably stick with him.

Lehmann lol, that guy does stink, but with the mighty classy team around him who are unbeatable at the moment means he isn't over tested. Put him in instead of howard right now and Utd would be pointless. He takes a punch at everything in sight. Agree Silveste is big problem, i would stick with Howard, rememver Bolton last year away and i counted 6 top class saves that night, get the defence in front sorted and some leadership and we will be ok.

Still miles behind Arsenal its sad to say!

The Muppet

The only one in that list I would rather instead of Howard is Given. The otheres are all good keepers but no better than Howard IMO.

dirkey_wynne

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Cudicini
Cech
Niemi
Robinson
Jaaskalinen
Kirkland
Given

I would all rate ahead of Howard at the moment. Dudek has made a few howlers and Lehmann probably less, so I would probably put them ahead of him too.

Having said that unfortunately for Fergie none of these play at United, so he should probably stick with him.

I wouldn't have Jaaskalinen or Kirkland in there. Kirkland has the potential but is far too injury prone to make a solid judgement. As for the others, I would rate them higher.

dirkey_wynne

Ok this is just getting ridiculous. I've seen people defending Howard in another thread on here, and there is no defence. That's 5 goals in 9 games he has been directly at fault for. People are saying he made some great saves - he made 1. That was at 0-0 when they broke through, he stayed up and stopped a one on one. That was good. Then came the goal. And once again from Howard it was an appalling schoolboy error. Not only that but about 2 minutes later, obviously still reeling from the goal he was lucky not to be caught out by a nice lob. It's not good enough. Barthez used to make just as many, and imho more good saves than Howard does, with less mistakes, yet he was villified. Some people saying on here that we shouldn't drop him due to him losing confidence. Well excuse my language but fnck his confidence. I'd rather him be a blubbering heap with us having a keeper who doesn't make schoolboy errors to be honest. Carroll has got to be reinstated now. By the way, do you realise Carroll left in just 3 in 6 at the end of last year? He may be prone to errors but he's a far better organiser of a defence than Howard. Howard makes no noise whatsoever. And don't even get me started on Silvestre. Again. Both of them at fault for a goal.

pickarooney

Howard needs to start swearing a bit at the defence.

tinofapples

I would have preferred to see Roy play at Centre Half last night with Wes and perhaps bring Phil Nev into midfield.

Silvestre has to be dropped , as someone has already said he's always been prone to errors but is carrying his sh1te form from Euro 2004 into the season.
His confidence in holding on to the ball too long and then releasing it when the opposition is on top of him is frightening !! How long more must we see this muppet take to the pitch in a Utd shirt . I was so annoyed last night when I heard the starting 11.

He's a twat. IMO he's unsettling all others around him including Tim , John O' has been used as a scapegoat on a couple of occasions too . Take this guy out and we'll recover (I think).

Pity is wasn't him that missed the drug test !!