My Analysis of Irelands Railways.

P11 Comms

"Indeed. I can't take P11 seriously, as they seem to go about (certainly on boards) with an attitude highly unsuited to what is supposed to be a professional pressure group."

Really, Tell that to these guys:

"Platform11’s proposals for a transfer station at Glasnevin Junction accommodating an underground Metro station are very interesting and clearly merit evaluation." - Oireachtas Joint Committee on Transport

Now if you want see the alternative to us then look no further than this reasoned and logical approach to rail lobbying:

http://www.westontrack.com/news60.htm

Word of advice though, before you sign up and follow the trainspotters in fantasy railway oblivion, the Western Rail Corridor is dead in the water and is never going to be built to connect Sligo to Limerick for at least 25 years if ever, because there is no viable nor feasable reason for it. Platform11 told the Government so, and the Government agreed becuase they knew we were right and got the DoT to hurry up the reopening of the stragecically planned Midelton line in Cork instead. You can think whatever you like about us, the people who matter already made their mind up.

We just tell it like it is becuase they alternative "cream tea and cumpets" approach while pontificating about the merits Irish railways in a British Public School accent does not work and more than some professional West of Ireland Whinger screaming "sure they Jackeens have everything and we have nothing in the West!" while swinging rosary beads over your head.

Sorry, Platform11 don't play that.

Platform11 is the Irish rail lobby made up of regular Irish people who just want to be able to get a train to work and home joining us day by day, getting bigger, more powerful and influential and we have freinds in high places and corporate backers who think we are the dog's bollox* becuase they know not trying to pull the wool over anybodys eyes in order to get the tax payers to fund our hobby or line our pockets. Get used to it.

Perhaps not being a cute-hoor on the make is so un-natural to Irish people at this stage of our history, that when an honest and well meaning group like Platform11 comes along nobody can see it for what it is - a public advocacy group with no commerical or poltical hidden agenda. Ray Burke always had a smile on his face and polite language during his dealing I have been told...

Anybody can be nice - getting results is what matters. That's getting people to work and back on a properly integrated rail network and nothing else.

* "oh, he used naughty language like an unprofessional common person!" (just thought I save some of you the effort of posting this follow-up comment by doing it myself)

P11 Comms

Genghis wrote:

OK, you've convinced me! Give me a link to a petition, and by-God, I'll help you wipe out those trainspotters! Ireland's railways will never be free until their curse is removed! Our Government will never hear us until we drown out the sound of their protest!

Good man! You'll be rewarded with 72 virgins in the afterlife for this.

www.extendthedart.com

The trainspotters only get 72 Virgin Trains in the next life.

De Rebel

would be great if somebody with lots of time on hand could prune this "battle for the hearts and minds of the rail supporters of ireland" thread of the rhetoric and twaddle and reveal the interesting points, if there are any.

p11, what the others said. the valid point in your arguments are countered by your hostility, intolerance and arrogance. i am a rail user. i support sensible investment in the rail service. i support many of p.11's ideas. i'm finding it increasingly difficult to support p.11 though.

P11 Comms

De Rebel wrote:

p11, what the others said. the valid point in your arguments are countered by your hostility, intolerance and arrogance. i am a rail user. i support sensible investment in the rail service. i support many of p.11's ideas. i'm finding it increasingly difficult to support p.11 though.

You are perfectly entitled to feel this way. But just for a second think about what that really means.

a) Patronising people by being superficially nice to back up hollow platitudes and empty promises = credibility

b) Having a valid argument, producing real results while being arrogant and brash = discreditied?


Polticians and their "professional" (there's that word again) PR firms are everybody's friend and have a smile on their faces while they are pushing the knife in people's back or talking trash. I think more and more Irish people are finding it increasingly difficult to support that? Platform11 is what you see is what you get. No fake smile, we are real human beings who drink pints, shag women and despise Joe Duffy like every Irish patriot should - What the hell is wrong with that!

People are sick and tired of being fobbed off with bull**** from pious "holy than thou" polticians in the form of "immiment metro announcement" and endless consultants reports for the last five years delivered by some faceless civil service spook or hired PR spokesperson in a professinonal and polite mannner. That's far from credibile in my books and I think more and more people are sick of being treated like morons by the Government when it comes to this kind of carry on.

Platform for Change was a transport plan delivered by the government in a flashy and professional PR event - no doubt the P11 knockers would have approved of the professional suits and their smug grins talkin complete and absolute rubbish. Guess what - Platform for Change remains a fairytale and Dublin is still gridlocked years later - you could have went to the movies and watched Lord of the Rings instead and it would have been a more realistic storyline. So much for the professionalism delivering results. A glossy professional brochure and a gentele speech and NOTHING ELSE ain't going to your backside or anybody elses on a train or metro.

Sorry, I would rather have some arrogant, hostile, nasty little fellow like Michael O'Leary deliver me something I can used and save me the hallow platitidues and professional veneer from the polticians.

This is how our organisation is. We do not insult people's inteligence by pretending that nobody pisses us off - lot of people piss us off. Look at poor An Tasice and the crap they have to deal with - where has being nice got them? They are treated like dirt and potryed as headcases and facists and for what? Why should Platform11 play a game only to get the same crap?

On the subject of you no longer supporting Platform11 - can I ask you if you are a member, contrubuted in some way or like P11 people are doing at the moment standing in rain outside rail stations handing out flyers on the Interconnector? If so, I am sorry you feel that way. I will gladly return your subsciption fees if this is the case.

A nasty little man like Micheal O'Leary can get me to London and back for pocket change - a professional consultation study and polite press release from the Government on the second terminal at Dublin Airport has delivered all of us - nowhere.

No excuse me I have to go play my Ramnoes cds.

pork99

P11 Comms, I've looked at your site, http://www.platform11.org/ and I'm frankly disturbed by the rational "joined up" thinking there. A coherent rail strategy for the GDA? I'm sorry but that's not how we do things in this country. What about the backhanders? How do FF's property developer mates profit from this?

P11 Comms

"P11 Comms, I've looked at your site, http://www.platform11.org/ and I'm frankly disturbed by the rational "joined up" thinking there. A coherent rail strategy for the GDA? I'm sorry but that's not how we do things in this country. What about the backhanders? How do FF's property developer mates profit from this?"

You know what is really scary is that is not our plan, that is CIE's believe or not. CIE/IE management deserve all the credit for ignoring the lunacy of developing our national rail network based on rural branch lines and instead got on with rational thought and then developed a brilliant plan to do the most good when it was really needed to people who badly need an alternative to road commuting.

People in Skerries, Newbridge and Navan along with around some parts of Cork, Limerick, Galway badly need commuter trains - people in Knock, Ballygulin and Wellington Bridge do not. I have been told that the Virgin Mary floats though the air on a cloud so Knock is non starter for train service as well.

To be fair things are moving SLOWLY in the right direction. The Tainiste Office last week requested that Platform11 contribute to what will be in essence, a comsumer watchdog group for public serivices including rail transport delivery and operational standards. When was the last time rail passengers were even considered by the government for their input?

Bit by bit public transport development is being dragged screaming and kicking into the hands of the people who will really use it/need it and like our Extend the Dart campaign, give the user more of a say and not leave it all down to politicians looking for re-election or consultants trying to squeeze their snouts into the trough while nothing gets done except flashy reports and nice maps.

The corner is being turned, but VERY slowly.

Yoda

P11 Comms wrote:

The problem is that people say things like "the Western Rail Corridor should be reopened" and they are just repeating what they heard from somebody else. They do not know that there is nothing to reopen as there never was a WRC as such, just a collection of ramshakled, rural lines some most of them built to dreadful engineering standards that today is just mile after mile of crumbling embankments, collasping bridges thorugh the land of one-off houses and would not do anything to help transport if it was opened.

What irritates me about this rhetoric is its dismissiveness. Whether or not the Western Rail Corridor should be re-opened, it is certainly reasonable to support the idea that a Western Rail Corridor should be opened. A ring connecting Sligo to Limerick would allow people greater access to, for instance, Shannon Airport as well as Knock (by feeder bus if not direct rail to the airports). It would allow tourists and residents to circle the island; it would allow sensible journey planning for anyone wanting to get anywhere. That everyone on the Sligo line has to go to Dublin to get to any of the other lines is shameful. That's not infrastructure. It's not planning. It's an accident of history and it should be corrected.

Platform 11 has some very good ideas about Dublin rail – but there's life outside the Commuter Pale yet.

John R

Yoda wrote:

What irritates me about this rhetoric is its dismissiveness. Whether or not the Western Rail Corridor should be re-opened, it is certainly reasonable to support the idea that a Western Rail Corridor should be opened. A ring connecting Sligo to Limerick would allow people greater access to, for instance, Shannon Airport as well as Knock (by feeder bus if not direct rail to the airports). It would allow tourists and residents to circle the island; it would allow sensible journey planning for anyone wanting to get anywhere. That everyone on the Sligo line has to go to Dublin to get to any of the other lines is shameful. That's not infrastructure. It's not planning. It's an accident of history and it should be corrected.

It is not an accident that most of the rural rail lines closed, they were economic disasters. Most of the WRC would be very lightly used if re-opened.

P11 Comms

Yoda wrote:

What irritates me about this rhetoric is its dismissiveness. Whether or not the Western Rail Corridor should be re-opened, it is certainly reasonable to support the idea that a Western Rail Corridor should be opened. A ring connecting Sligo to Limerick would allow people greater access to, for instance, Shannon Airport as well as Knock (by feeder bus if not direct rail to the airports). It would allow tourists and residents to circle the island; it would allow sensible journey planning for anyone wanting to get anywhere. That everyone on the Sligo line has to go to Dublin to get to any of the other lines is shameful. That's not infrastructure. It's not planning. It's an accident of history and it should be corrected.

Parts of the WRC most certianly have potential, Ennis-Athenry as it would create a very nifty Galway-Ennis-Limerick commuter corridor and a potential customer base of hundreds of thousands. Absolutely that would work and is one of the shotest section to put back in service. The problem is the current efforts to reopen the WRC is that this section has be reduced to the level of an afterthough by West on Track. Here is a scan of page 12 of the reopening proposal is you do not believe me and also note how many time Knock Airport is mentioned in the list:

http://www.platform11.org/wrc_phases.jpg

Either this is blantant idiocy, trainspotter fantasy or some other local political/tacky religious souviners agenda at work here which has nothing to do with meaningful rail transport development in the West of Ireland. Or the forth option, that Platform11 are the real idiots and little rural railways realyl are the most important elements of our rail transport network.

But seriously, how could any "expert" study of the route reduce the most viable and important section to bottom of the agenda after the most underpopulated section is up and running! When Platform11 puled out of supporting this current effort to reopen the WRC we were totally validated and won a whole new group of supporters - it was the making of us an an organisation actually, and the fact that Brennan issued a press release as soon as the local election were over (within minutes actually) on how the WRC would have to prove itself, which was very similar to the P11 one, coupled with the fact that polticians have gone very cold to the idea proves that we were not only correct to do this - but we have made certain that if any part of the WRC is opened it'll be the southern section first. We are not going to say sorry for that to anybody. The catholic preist from WoT who called us sabateurs in the Mayo News correct. We sabotaged a bad idea which would have crucified the taxpayers of this country and done more to damage the image rail transport in Ireland by presenting an example to all the professional rail bashers as to why rail transport is a waste of money. If that makes Platform11 "discredited", "pathetic", Anti-West of Ireland" or "a joke of an organisation" to some people, then so be it.

The other bonus of reopening the Ennis-Athenry section of the WRC is that it would be easiest in terms of engineering and operations as it was built to a high standard and does not encounter the huge numbers of level crossing the section north of Tuam does (that section was built as a rural tramway) which would make a modern passenger service impossible and would create road traffic jams and not solve them.

Forget the section north of Athenry and spend money by making a real differnece by upgrading Galway Station and creating a commuter service around Galway/Oranmore instead which people will actually have a reason to use rather than "a nice wee day out on the train" now and again. We cannot view our rail network in this way anymore as this thinking of runing a train for the sake of it will not grow rail tranport.

Yoda wrote:

Platform 11 has some very good ideas about Dublin rail – but there's life outside the Commuter Pale yet.

We are a national oraganisation who wants good and meaningful rail services nationwide which people will use and not running an oul train or metro for the sake of it. If you read the following articles from our website you will find that you are incorrect in your asseration:

http://www.platform11.org/pr_029.html
http://www.platform11.org/gal_ennis_lim.html
http://www.platform11.org/west_direct.html
http://www.platform11.org/limerick_link.html
http://www.platform11.org/clon_dub_direct.html

Just because the Interconector is our main gig right now does not mean it is the only one. We have to go were the greatest demand is and this is just common sense - plus there are huge numbers of commuters in the GDR who are desparate for trains and want to use them, the grannies going to fill up their holy water bottles a few times a year on free travel passes will have to wait, let them use the bus like the do now.

We also challenged the WRC people to a honest and open public debate on how best to develop rail tranport in the West of Ireland (P11 believe that we have to increase the frequency on the exsisting lines in the West before we can begin to even think about reopening rural rail lines for commuter services). They never got back to us.

The WRC from Sligo to Limerick is never going to happen because there is no reason why it should. Sorry, but that's just the truth - but there is a real case for Ennis-Atherny and we would support this wholeheartly.

Regional development and social engineering is not Platform11 concern - we only do trains.

sliabh

Personally the only way I would support the western rail corridor is if it was part of a greater "Western Development Corridor". I would bin the current decentralisation plan, and the joke National Spatial Strategy (the one that balances national development outside of Dublin by making every town in the country a national hub).

Instead designate the line from Cork, to Limerick, to Galway, to Sligo, to Derry (yes there is life north of the border) as the counter weight for development to Dublin and Belfast. Then build the motorways and rail links to connect these cities. Upgrade ports, airports and telecoms, move sections the civil service to these areas. You can't give everyone a national hub next door but most of the population outside of Dublin would then within an hour or two of this western axis.

This would make a north-south rail line in the west something more than a political sop and outrageous white elephant. It would be a key part of a major regional development plan. But any sort of imaginative leap forward like this is not on the cards, mores the pity.

MG

P11 Comms wrote:

we have freinds (sic) in high places and corporate backers who think we are the dog's bollox

I think it is fair to ask who these corporate backers are and what sway do they have on policy

P11 Comms

MG wrote:

I think it is fair to ask who these corporate backers are and what sway do they have on policy

Biker Slut Monthly.

sliabh

P11 Comms wrote:

Biker Slut Monthly.

Aha - so now the truth is out. The rail advocates are secretly funded by a road users group!!!!

Metrobest

aliveandkicking wrote:

What is wrong with some of the people on this thread? how can you label P11 as "pathetic", "snide" and a "joke of an organisation". The government obviously doesn't think they are a joke. Are you all so wrapped up in cotton wool and used to polite political language and spin that you are incapable of recognising everyday speak? P11 are not a PR firm, they don't use political spin, they don't bull****, they tell things how it is even if it means some people are offended. P11 Comms has talked more sense in this thread than the rest of us put together.

P11 tells us that for 20 years Dubliners have been using a ''highly successful metro'', the DART. No spin? No bull****? Case rested.

MG

Based on the P11 postings here I have come up with a slogan for you:


Platform 11 - "We shag women" (sponsored by Biker Slut Monthly)

P11 Comms

sliabh wrote:

Personally the only way I would support the western rail corridor is if it was part of a greater "Western Development Corridor". I would bin the current decentralisation plan, and the joke National Spatial Strategy (the one that balances national development outside of Dublin by making every town in the country a national hub).

The National Spatial Strategy was a fantastic document. It was destroyed by the current Decentralisation carry-on. It breaks my heart to see that torn asunder in the last budget.

sliabh wrote:

Instead designate the line from Cork, to Limerick, to Galway, to Sligo, to Derry (yes there is life north of the border) as the counter weight for development to Dublin and Belfast. Then build the motorways and rail links to connect these cities. Upgrade ports, airports and telecoms, move sections the civil service to these areas. You can't give everyone a national hub next door but most of the population outside of Dublin would then within an hour or two of this western axis.

The problem with Derry is Donegal. There never was a railway line from Sligo to Derry and this has always been a misconception. It would take at least a billion euro just to get a rail line across the most undensly populated county in the state. The cost would be pushed up by having to tunnel though the mountains because any enviomental impact study would demand this becuase of the scenic beauty and limited access though the valleys. Getting the rail line across Sligo Town would require "stilts" (Cheers Seamo) or tunnelling under Sligo Town and for what? A passenger demand that Bus Eieann is already filling without any bother. But like the WRC, the real issue is not building new lines, but saving the present ones and getting the most out of them. Northern Ireland Railways seems very keen to close down the current Belfast Derry line and this is what people up there should be worried about. Like the WRC, you can't be planning to build a brand new conservatry on one's home, while the roof on your house is falling in and foundations crumbling.

sliabh wrote:

This would make a north-south rail line in the west something more than a political sop and outrageous white elephant. It would be a key part of a major regional development plan. But any sort of imaginative leap forward like this is not on the cards, mores the pity.

Platform11 believes strongly that if you make the present rail network in Ireland highly sucessful and come close to profitable, or at least reduce the public subvention (the interconnector will do that), then the image of rail in Ireland will just grow and grow and eventually we will get everything else in the end. Another important factor is proper spatial and strategically clustered planning and development and get away form this crazy one-off, rural house model.

If you looked in the sunday papers yesterday you cannot help to notice how many property ads have pictures of DART and Suburban trains on them. Create real rail commuter network around Cork, Galway and Limerick and you generate that same effect. In fact, it is already starting to happen on the Midleton line. You can only do this with frequent commuter trains and that means uncomplicated double track line, short branches with the stations close together. This is rail transport best practice for rail commuting well proven here in Ireland and all over the world - the Western Rail Corridor is a single track route over a vast distance with stations many miles apart and goes nowhere near the main centres of employment in Galway. ie; completely useless as a way of tackling traffic and congestion.

Metrobest

P11: We're ordinary Joes
P11: Our corporate backer think we're the dog's ******

P11 Comms

MG wrote:

Based on the P11 postings here I have come up with a slogan for you:


Platform 11 - "We shag women" (sponsored by Biker Slut Monthly)

Works for me. Nice human touch.

MG

You can have the copyright for free - consider it a donation. Does that make me a corporate backer?

P11 Comms

Metrobest me oul china! There ya are. Have you managed to get Deko the JCB Driver to build you metro as a nixer?

sliabh

P11 Comms wrote:

The National Spatial Strategy was a fantastic document. It was destroyed by the current Decentralisation carry-on. It breaks my heart to see that torn asunder in the last budget.

Personally I think it was a joke, but that's an argument for another day.

My suggestion of a western axis was just to put context on when something like WRC might be feasible - if it were to be part of a larger strategy for the west. As it stands (as a sop to local political interests that feel their 4000 person town is neglected by the government unless it has an airport, a major multinational factory, a hospital with full 24hour emergency cover, a university and a major rail link) it is a non runner.

maxheadroom

Metrobest wrote:

P11: We're ordinary Joes
P11: Our corporate backer think we're the dog's ******

You do realise the two statements aren't mutually exclusive, right?

Metrobest

P11 Comms wrote:

Metrobest me oul china! There ya are. Have you managed to get Deko the JCB Driver to build you metro as a nixer?

Thanks for the snide comment. Very classy. :rolleyes:
Don't pretend you're happy to see me: you banned me from your P11 forum because I didn't agree with the Interconnector.

Where you think you're making witty comments, increasingly the rest of us on this forum are seeing a very bitter and small group of agenda-ridden lobbyists who cannot take even a molicule of criticism, so blinded are you by your belief that the Interconnector is the magic, 3.4bn Euro solution to Dublin's transport problems.

A Dub in Glasgo

Got to agree with a lot that P11 says. I have not experienced travelling on the rail network for about 10 years but I have done safety assessments (with a UK company) into the signalling systems in the late 1990s and it was shocking to see the state the system was in. I kid you not, we were lucky not to have had some serious accidents. This is now being addressed by the government with the Safety Improvement Programme. Fix what is there and then look at increasing capacity and reliability.

Victor

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Got to agree with a lot that P11 says. I have not experienced travelling on the rail network for about 10 years but I have done safety assessments (with a UK company) into the signalling systems in the late 1990s and it was shocking to see the state the system was in.

The signalling system is now in much better condition than it was even 5 years ago, although I understand there is still a problem with drivers ignoring red lights and at level crossings.

Being a generally "happy" (ILDA / privatisation fiascos aside) railway and the lower frequencies involved outside the Dublin area, accident levels are relatively low.

P11 Comms

"Don't pretend you're happy to see me: you banned me from your P11 forum because I didn't agree with the Interconnector."

You will be unbanned as soon as the Minister makes a final decision regarding Metro v Interconnector. You were creating incredible confusion writing endless articles to the board about a figure of metro that does not exsist, will never exsist and is not even up for discussion with any official body - this was just leading to confusion among the ordinary person looking for straightforward answers regarding Metro v Interconnector. We are down to a two horse race for the next big spend and clarity and focus is essential at this point so a correct decision can be made.

You had some good ideas alright but you were overloading the board with hyperbole and fantasy metro talk. Right now, as we approach the endgame in all this we need clarity for people and polticians can get the real facts of what is an what is not on offer.

As for our hidden agenda there is none. It's getting as many "bums on train/metro/Luas seats" as possible and nothing else.

Metrobest

P11 Comms wrote:

You will be unbanned as soon as the Minister makes a final decision regarding Metro v Interconnector. We are down to a two horse race

Why are you scared of debate? People can make up their own minds. So can the minister. Before you banned me, you threatened me with a ban because I ''did not understand'' the Interconnector. You weren't able to understand that I understood it perfectly, but thought - and still think - it's a waste of money, and it doesn't deliver enough bang for the buck.

P11 Comms wrote:

You had some good ideas alright .

At least we agree on one thing :cool: