Anyone else hit with 300 euro + bill from Eircom when changing to EsatBT dsl?

simonm2

Hi,

I was an Anytime 150 customer - moved to EsatBts dsl trial as soon as my exchange was enabled - cancelled the Anytime sub by phone. Next bill had 296 euros plus vat (360 ish) for just over a months Anytime. Eircom claim its street legal. (section 9.3 of t&c ). I am contesting it strongly - meantime they have cut off my phone. I should note that although I was on Eircoms list for dsl I found out purely by accident that our exchange was enabled - Eircom never called me to offer me the service (so whats new baby).

Anyone else came across this? Anyone take Eircom to court on it?

Simon

Paulw

I've heard of someone else who also had this. You can complain, but unfortunately it is stated in their T&Cs.

uteotw

What does it say exactly in that section 9.3 ?

I think you should complain to ComReg and why not the small claim tribunal.

uteotw

seamus

simonm2 wrote:

Hi,

I was an Anytime 150 customer - moved to EsatBts dsl trial as soon as my exchange was enabled - cancelled the Anytime sub by phone. Next bill had 296 euros plus vat (360 ish) for just over a months Anytime. Eircom claim its street legal. (section 9.3 of t&c ). I am contesting it strongly - meantime they have cut off my phone. I should note that although I was on Eircoms list for dsl I found out purely by accident that our exchange was enabled - Eircom never called me to offer me the service (so whats new baby).

Anyone else came across this? Anyone take Eircom to court on it?

Simon

It's in the T's & C's. You haven't a leg to stand on, I'm afraid. If you cancel the Anytime service before your billing date, you are liable for all internet calls at full cost between the date you cancel and your previous billing date.

Complain all you like, but you won't win, plain and simple.

What does it say exactly in that section 9.3 ?

I think you should complain to ComReg and why not the small claim tribunal

9.3 On termination of this agreement for Flat Rate Services, the Customer will be charged eircom net Free per-second rates for all calls made to the Flat Rate Service from the end of the last Billing Period to the date of cancellation of the Service.

It's perfectly clear.

LoBo

that's a bit harsh isn't it?

A bit like going to an all-you-can-eat restaurant, gorging yourself and then getting charged separately for each dish at the end of the meal because you say you won't be coming back next week.

simonm2

Eircom is selective in its use of t&c - it also says you have to terminate in writing but it accepts telephone cancellations without demur and without any suggestion that you are supposed to do so in writing. I will freely admit that I do not ask my solicitor to read 5 pages of t&c everytime I sign up for a 30 euro a month service.

Comreg is investigating. Got a call back aways from one "Veronica" of Eircom confirming that they are investigating at Comregs request. They still cut off the phone.

Small clains court: I would be very interested to hear about anyone's experience in court - small claims or district. If anyone has definite info - pls post.

9.3 is what Eircom quotes. They ignore 9.4 which could shed a different light.

Interestingly towards the end of their t&c they state that they deem notices to have been served 48 hours after posting. My Eircom bill which I expect is a notice of somekind is generally delivered 7 to 10 days after the date on the bill (no postmark) - so they would "deem" me to have my bill 5 to 8 days before I actually receive it.

Given Eircoms customer service record it's not surprising that their credit rating is just above junkbond. From Bloomberg: "Standard & Poor's rates Eircom's senior unsecured debt BB- and Moody's Investors Services gives it an equivalent Ba3 rating, three levels below investment grade. "


Simon.


FYI
9.3 & 9.4

"
9.3 On termination of this agreement for Flat Rate Services, the Customer will be charged eircom net Free per-second rates for all calls made to the Flat Rate Service from the end of the last Billing Period to the date of cancellation of the Service.

9.4 This Agreement may be terminated by Customers by serving thirty (30) days prior notice in writing to eircom net of the intention to terminate. eircom net Free Customers may terminate their service by discontinuing use. Customers are liable for all call charges up to the date of termination. Customers who terminate prior to the end of an eircom net Subscription billing cycle are liable for all charges up to the end of that billing cycle.
"

Moojuice

I cancelled mine and changed the number to a cheaper subscription number that I used prior. No problems. The are a pack of lying, cheating, money grabbing bastards. Contest it all the way. **** the T & C's. It is a blatent rip off and they are just punishing you for going with a better service provider. For too long they have kept this country in the Telecommunication dark ages.

Moo

eth0_

Moojuice wrote:

I cancelled mine and changed the number to a cheaper subscription number that I used prior. No problems. The are a pack of lying, cheating, money grabbing bastards.

How are they lying, it was in the T&C's? If you cancel a service, do you expect to still get free internet calls? Use your brain!

Moojuice

I wasnt refering to their T & C's. In general I wouldn't believe a word uttered by them. The promise the earth and deliver a steaming pile of ****. Sure the T & C's state things clearly but it is typical eircom. " Use us or pay ridiculous prices" They control the phone lines and until that monopoly is taken away from them they will continue to lie and abuse it to their advantage. Each time you ring them you hear a different story. No one in their has a ****ing clue and if they do, they soon leave.

The Clown Man

Actually, if the clause seems to serve no particular use and is of an exceptional nature and no prior warning of the unusual clause was served on the contractee there are good grounds for contention of the clause and it may well be deemed a void clause by the court.

Just because it is in the T&C's does not make it law. The T&C's may have several clauses that may be deemed void due to their unfairness.

By all means contest it. But don't think that you will get your money back. Legal fees etc are most likely going to cost you more than that.

It would be a kick in the arse more than a financial recouperation. And it would help anyone else who might fall into the trap in future.

simonm2

If you apply 9.3 and 9.4 the only way to come out of the contract seems to be to pay 30 euros for a service you don't use.

i.e say your billing period is 1st Sept to 31st Oct. Before the end of September you teminate in writing giving 30 days notice. You do not use the service at all from the 1st of Oct to the 31st so you just pay the 30 Euros for the Anytime 150 service.

If you use the service during Oct as usual you will get a bill for 150 hours @ 2 euros = 300 euros because 9.3 can be applied even if you terminate in writing.

One way or another there is an unadvertised termination fee.

What bugs me most of all that Eircom's customer "care" people either hang up on you or keeping transferring you from one buck passer to another until you end up somewhere like tech support where the poor bod at the end of the line has no idea what in the world is going on. Mostly you spend the time on hold.


The Clown Man:
Agree about the kick bit. I've heard rumours of people taking them through the small claims process - but I can't track a definite lead down.

Note that they changed the terms of their dsl trial - it's now "less strings" attached than before - with eircom you can never say no strings.

If they do not reconnect my phone in the nearish future I will quite simply do without a landline until there is an alternative company. This has me mega=P***ed off. To the point that I am looking at a job in London.

Mutant_Fruit

If i was you, i'd try and at least pay for the last month (at the normal 30eur rate, or whatever it is) and then tell em to feck off for any extra cash they want.

Other than that, at least contact your solicitor/lawyer about it, and see if he thinks its worth fighting. Sounds like abuse of power to me.

maxheadroom

I'm confused as to how a disagreement over pricing / contract terms with eircom NET can imapct your agreement for telephone services with eircom retail (from a legal point of view). Even if we know that there is no real separation there, they have to at least pretend there is for legal reasons, don't they?

Ripwave

maxheadroom wrote:

I'm confused as to how a disagreement over pricing / contract terms with eircom NET can imapct your agreement for telephone services with eircom retail (from a legal point of view). Even if we know that there is no real separation there, they have to at least pretend there is for legal reasons, don't they?

He doesn't have a disaggrement over pricing with eircom.net. He has failed to pay something billed on his phone bill, so eircom has discontinued his service.

It may not be fair, but it appears to be legal.

maxheadroom

So the eircom "flat rate" dial up products are actually offered through eircom retail?

Didn't know that, and it seems a bit weird. I mean, the ESB isn't allowed to cut off your electricity if you can't pay for something you bought in shop electric and "put on the bill".

Or is it just a case of CER being much better than ComReg?

simonm2

Anytime 150 is on my eircom bill. I paid the line rental, the calls and 30 towards the internet - which was about 95 total - they wanted 460-ish - forgotton the exact amount which means that according to Eircom I am 360ish in arrears - hence snip snip ... .

seamus

maxheadroom wrote:

So the eircom "flat rate" dial up products are actually offered through eircom retail?

It's all a bit hazy. Rest assured, what you experience is a "suspension of telephony services", which, afaik, can be requested by any operator providing you with telephony services over the eircom line. I could be wrong though.

Didn't know that, and it seems a bit weird. I mean, the ESB isn't allowed to cut off your electricity if you can't pay for something you bought in shop electric and "put on the bill".

You bet your ass it is.

maxheadroom

seamus wrote:

You bet your ass it is.

Are you sure - because I remember reading somewhere that they are not allowed to because it gives them an unfair competitive advantage versus other electrical appliance retailers (because they can't threaten to cut of your power if you cant pay, all they can do is repossess the equipment under whatever credit agreement you have).

Of course, I can't for the life of me remember where I read that... :rolleyes:

simonm2

maxheadroom wrote:

Or is it just a case of CER being much better than ComReg?

In my experience, whatever about pricing and foot dragging on developing the windpower concessions they've won, the ESB is the one major company in Ireland that understands: a) customer care, b) the concept of an always on service. I don't think I have ever been on hold more than 30 seconds and I have always got the issue solved in the first go.

Eircom still thinks a land line is a luxury, intermittent service as in the late 19th C model.

Kevok

If in the t+c's it says that you must cancel in writing, then can you not claim that your cancellation at the time was void and you did not infact cancel before the next billing date? Or are the T+C's soley for the purpose of protecting Eircom and not the customer?

simonm2

I've certainly been thinking about that angle. The main reason I posted was to see if anyone had in fact used that (or any other) argument in a court case or with Comreg or whoever.

I was glad to see that LoBo's analogy - a very similar restaurant had occured to me aswell.

Any more thoughts anyone?

Paddy20

Click on :- www.odca.ie

The Office of the Director of Consumer Affair's. They have the power to prosecute on your behalf, and it is about time they did.

Also, have a look at:- www.oasis.gov.ie

Have you offered to come to an arrangement with Eircom's 'Credit control department, so that you can at least have your phone re-connected. AFAIK as long as you make an effort to pay i.e. you offer/ agree to pay a small amount per billing period [an amount you can afford] then upon them receiving the first payment. They must re-connect the phone ?...

Good luck.

simonm2

Thanks Paddy - I'll look into both these angles - hadn't thought of either. Actually to tell the truth I am so fed up of dealing with Eircom that I am looking very seriously at moving to the UK...

blorg

If I understand you right - say your billing period is the 1st of the month - if you cancel on the 15th, you are billed normal rate for calls between the 1st and 15th?

My god that is a slimy condition; the only reason for it must be to screw people, as the obvious way you would think that this would work would be that if you cancel during a billing period, you would be billed for that period as normal and your subscription would run out and the end of that billing period (or, given the 30 day requirement, at the end of the *next* billing period).

I don't know if this can be a legal condition from their point of view, it is very unfair, counter-intuitive and non-obvious. It goes completely against standard business practice and as such your attention really should have been drawn to it.

Do you pay the 30 upfront at the start of the month, or are you billed it at the end of the month? Upfront would be normal for such a service, and I would imagine leave you in a stronger position.

I'd push for offering the 30, and pointing out that you did not think this was happen, and that no-one explained at the moment of cancellation that you would be automatically increasing a 30 EUR bill into 300, even if you made no more calls. In any case I don't see how it can be legal for Eircom to change the pricing for services already provided after they have been provided?

Apart from that I'd try the 'my cancellation was not in writing and therefore not valid' line.

simonm2

You pay at the end of the two month period. I already paid the 30 as well as everything else on the bill - including line rental to the end of Oct. - the big problem is how to find someone in Eircom who will do anything.

Dealing with Eircom reminds me a bit of a scene in Absolutely Fabulous when G is in for plastic surgery and starts complaining about something - the nurse turns to her and says "you are mistaking me for someone who gives a damn..."

Paddy20

Simonm2,

I know how you feel, but do you not think that moving to the UK, because you are "fed up" dealing with EirCoN, is a bit extreme. Hardly worth taking such drastic measures just because of some idiotic telecom's companie's disgraceful behaviour.

Have you considered visiting your local 'Citizens Information Centre' for a chat about this problem. Personally, getting your phone re-connected without having to pay a large bill all at once should be step number one.

I no longer deal with EirCoN even for my line rental, as I am a UTV Clicksilver and telephone services customer, and very happy I am.

Note: There should be a link to the Citizens Information Centre's website on the 'Oasis' website I included in my earlier post, although a personal visit and chat is hard to beat, particularly if they agree to contact EirCoN's credit control on your behalf !, plead poverty, and the fact that you can only afford to pay X amount bi-monthly off the outstanding amount on your account. Do not refuse outright to pay anything bi-monthly as then they will not be under any obligation too re-connect your telephone line.

tman

when i called to cancel my anytime subscription, the sales rep told me i'd be better off waiting until the next bill arrived, or else i'd most likely end up paying normal dialup charges for any calls to the anytime number.

glad that i did now :eek:

simonm2

tman wrote:

when i called to cancel my anytime subscription, the sales rep told me i'd be better off waiting until the next bill arrived, or else i'd most likely end up paying normal dialup charges for any calls to the anytime number.

glad that i did now :eek:

My guy just said ok, no problem or words to that effect. Definitely not even the slightest hit of a suggestion that it would be better to do it later. Did you cancel in writing or only on the phone?

tman

spent 10 minutes on hold, only for the bloke to tell me it'd be easiest if i just email the cancellation address stating my account number.
haven't recieved conformation of it being cancelled yet

Optikus

This is maddness!! :eek:

The Clown Man

Well, look, if you want to take it further you have a good legal stance and it could seriously help other people down the line. Clauses like that are just stupid but the most stupid thing is that people usualy just accept them, pay the bill, and get robbed of thier hard earned money.

In the end somene needs to stand up to this sheet and usually people back down because it is not worth the hassle. I'd have to say that I am a culprit in that respect. I have just walked away from eircom bills, without paying, that were charged in error and although i was never followed up on it (probaby because I kicked up such a sheet) I never did anything to change the way the contract was phrased.

It just takes one or two people to contest this type of thing to have it changed for every one else's benefit.

Take the insurance row. The Equal Status Act 2000 says that no-one can be discriminated due to age, gender, marital status, family status, religion, race, sexual orientation, disability or membership of the travellers community. But still young men pay 2x as much as young women for insurace and young women pays .75x as much as middle aged men - which is a legal requirement for driving a car. This is undoubtably contrary to the Equal Status Act but still the insurance companies get away with it because no-one has challenged it.

It is a sad state of affairs when this type of thing is let go day in, day out, but one challenge is all it needs to question it's legitimacy. Please don't sit back and accept it if you think you have been screwed over. Do something about it and you can help anyone else that might be done over as you have been.

I know I'm preaching and not doing anything about it but I have not been in a sufficiently strong position to actually make an effect. Maybe you might be. So take advantage. This could very well affect everyone else on an Eircom line.