Hunt Ban Protest Kicks Off

Redleslie2

Anyone watching sky news? Bizarre scenes of class war. The hunt ban protests outside parliament have turned a bit nasty. The toffs and what appears to be a forelock tugging working class lickspittle element, started on the cops who gave them a few whacks back in return. Explosive bangy things have been chucked at and over the police lines. Sky news reporter says he found empty shotgun cartridges on the ground, some toff said people just had them in their pockets. Why drop them on the ground I wonder? A threat?

Redleslie2

Protesters in the commons. Parliament suspended. Mental. BBC report.

Manach

forelock tugging working class lickspittle element
In other words, rural folk protesting against Big government steamrolling through a bill, just to please the looney Labour left wing, nearly totally opposed by the countryside dwellers.

luckat

Ah yes, it's wonderful to see thousands of people out shouting and roaring and protesting at an attempt by their government to take away their God-given right to tear a little animal to pieces.

mycroft

The four hour protest has been mostly peaceful but police have used their batons against a small minority of protesters.

Well nice to know you don't have to be left wing to get a baton in the face.

nearly totally opposed by the countryside dwellers.

Hunt supporters can happily produce statistics that will say everything from;

99% of the population oppose the ban

30,000 dogs will be slaughtered

thousands of people will lose their jobs

Fox populations will explode

A decline in hedgerow will lead to destruction of rural habitats and huge 30 mile wide fields leading to desolation and a rural wasteland devoid of scenery.

The very fabric of society will be torn assunder and it will be only a matter of time before the ghost of cromwell and his roundheads will rise up....

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I may have made up/exaggerated some of the above points.

Simple facts it's barbaric and cruel, is an ineffective way of population control and is the hobby of the rich and powerful.

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We Did not see this kind of outcry when they banned oh cockfighting and dog fighting.

On a local level fox hunting still exits in this country (there are over three hunts in wicklow) and it's likely that some refugees from the UK will come over to join our hunts.

Hmmmmm hunt sabotage, I have been meaning to take up an outdoor hobby.

dublinario

Who gives a f*ck if it is opposed by a bunch of rich, wealthy, aristocratic, monicle wearing, land owning toffs who just so happen to live in the country? I'm far from a libertarian tree hugging hippy, and yet I'm still stunned that there is still a place in modern society for a sport which gets it's kicks from ripping a fox apart.

And how is "but it's tradition" an argument? It used to be traditional for Black people to act as slaves to in-bred rednecks in America, but that tradition was thrown out when society progressed and deemed Slavery morally bankrupt.

I have always found it interesting that Fox hunting is met with, at best, apathy, and at worst, revulsion by the working classes. Why is it that the w*nkers who indulge in this barbaric nonsense are predominantly aristocratic and bourgeois morons, oblivious to reason?

There are probably a million ways to recreate. Find one that doesn't involve torturing and disembowling an animal for fun.

The Corinthian

dublinario wrote:

Who gives a f*ck if it is opposed by a bunch of rich, wealthy, aristocratic, monicle wearing, land owning toffs who just so happen to live in the country? I'm far from a libertarian tree hugging hippy, and yet I'm still stunned that there is still a place in modern society for a sport which gets it's kicks from ripping a fox apart.

The hunting debate in the UK is simply another leg in an ongoing clash of cultures between urban and rural Society. The UK Labour party’s support is overwhelmingly urban based and so it’s not too bothered where it comes to introducing laws that will be unpopular with people who won’t vote for them regardless.

Additionally, to argue that only toffs support hunting would be a fairly ill-informed and idiotic opinion. After all, hare coursing is hardly the mainstay of “wealthy, aristocratic, monocle wearing, land owning toffs”, is it?

On which point, I don’t think I’ve ever met an aristocrat who wore a monocle. Perhaps you should be waving a red flag about somewhere, although I suspect you’ll be almost ninety years too late.

sceptre

The Corinthian wrote:

After all, hare coursing is hardly the mainstay of “wealthy, aristocratic, monocle wearing, land owning toffs”, is it?

To be fair, it's not as though you need a horse to go coursing. Just a hare, a dog and a wall. You can even use someone else's hare, dog and wall if you're the voyeur type. Harder to do that with fox hunting unless you're used to jumping over fences and running through the woods without a horse.

Sparks

What's bothering me about this is that the same style of arguments are being used here that were used during the pistols ban in the UK after Dunblane. And that's one of the reasons that there's so much support from non-hunting quarters for the pro-hunt protesters in the UK right now - Labour just isn't trusted by minorities who can be villanised with a bit of spin...

The Corinthian

sceptre wrote:

To be fair, it's not as though you need a horse to go coursing. Just a hare, a dog and a wall. You can even use someone else's hare, dog and wall if you're the voyeur type. Harder to do that with fox hunting unless you're used to jumping over fences and running through the woods without a horse.

So what? My point was simply that class is irrelevant in the question of blood sports.

The implication by dublinario and some of the other ‘intellectuals’ in this thread is that there is some sort of monopoly by ‘toffs’ in blood sports. This, other than being laughably untrue, detracts from the real debate which has more to do with a difference in cultural and moral values between urban and rural Society, than some adolescent attempt to tie it all into class war.

Lennoxschips

Batons? They should set the dogs on them.

Sparks

Darn right Lennox - due process and civil treatment is only for people we agree with and like, after all!

Redleslie2

Where I grew up it was common for kids to hunt cats and dogs and kill them through various means for fun. So recreational sadistic cruelty is not necessarily a class issue no, but fox hunting is just a hobby of the landed classes and the saddos who aspire to that class. Hardly needs to be said but considering that hunting has been the preserve of the ruling class since the Normans and vast swathes of the country have been their private playgrounds, anyone who says it's not a class issue is quite obviously talking total bollocks. Especially since even some Countryside Alliance spokestoff or tory MP (indistinguishable) accused Tony Blair of fomenting class war today.

monument

Redleslie2 wrote:

So recreational sadistic cruelty is not necessarily a class issue no, but fox hunting is just a hobby of the landed classes and the saddos who aspire to that class.

While I would support a ban, I have to say that is complete ill-informed non-sense.

therecklessone

I have to say, from the footage I saw from outside Westminster, the police went fairly full pelt with the batons on the protesters.

T'was strange to see them employ tactics usually reserved for footy hooligans and crusties.

Redleslie2

monument wrote:

While I would support a ban, I have to say that is complete ill-informed non-sense.

And your one line "argument" is inarticulate non-sense.

monument

Redleslie2 wrote:

And your one line "argument" is inarticulate non-sense.

My argument? Over your ill-informed views, mostly amounting to name-calling?

therecklessone wrote:

T'was strange to see them employ tactics usually reserved for footy hooligans and crusties.

It is most likely that a hooligan element of the protest sparked off the police, while the majority were peaceful – as is the case with most protests that happen to get out of hand. It's not like the police went at them for no reason.

Redleslie2

monument wrote:

My argument? Over your ill-informed views, mostly amounting to name-calling?

You've put up two posts about my "ill-informed" views without being able to explain why they're ill-informed so here's a direct question.

Why is saying that fox hunting is a hobby "ill-informed"?

Answer or shurrup and go away. Good lad.

monument wrote:

It is most likely that a hooligan element of the protest sparked off the police, while the majority were peaceful – as is the case with most protests that happen to get out of hand. It's not like the police went at them for no reason.

Now this is what I call ill-informed nonsense. You obviously don't know what went on at the protest but you're more than happy to say what "most likely" happened. Why don't you just go away and try find out how things actually happened at the protest before coming out with this useless speculative garbage please.

monument

Excuse me, I was meaning to just highlight ‘of the landed classes and the saddos who aspire to that class’, which is like saying scum bags are the only ones who like boxing, amounting to – as I’ve said – nothing more then name calling. Hunting is just a hobby.

Redleslie2 wrote:

Now this is what I call ill-informed nonsense. You obviously don't know what went on at the protest but you're more than happy to say what "most likely" happened. Why don't you just go away and try find out how things actually happened at the protest before coming out with this useless speculative garbage please.

Scotland Yard says a small section of the crowd tried to break through the police cordon but it was "in the main... a peaceful demonstration". - BBC (as linked above)

I can only talk, or clearly speculate about what I have read or seen on the box with moving pictures. My conclusion of such is a few pushed the police (thus becoming hooligans) and the main crowd was peaceful. Do you have a different account of events?

Big Ears

Redleslie2 wrote:

Where I grew up it was common for kids to hunt cats and dogs and kill them through various means for fun.

Ive heard of lots of terrible things done to cats but people seriously hunted dogs where you grew up ?

I know its equally cruel to kill both animals , but a huge amount of people love dogs(compared to cats) , was there no outrage at any dog killing that was known to be going on ?

Lennoxschips

Batons? They should set the dogs on them.

Darn right Lennox - due process and civil treatment is only for people we agree with and like, after all!

In your rush to be cynical you missed my originial cynicism.

Sparks

Not my fault Lennox - you didn't have your sarcasm hand held up high enough!

Victor

Redleslie2 wrote:

Protesters in the commons. Parliament suspended. Mental. BBC report.

Good on them, at least they didn't disturb nap time in the Lords.

Big Ears wrote:

Ive heard of lots of terrible things done to cats but people seriously hunted dogs where you grew up ? I know its equally cruel to kill both animals , but a huge amount of people love dogs(compared to cats) , was there no outrage at any dog killing that was known to be going on ?

It's OK the dogs were of the fox breed.

Chucky the tree

this was a great afternoons entertainment i must say. brightened up the usually boring mid day tv no end!

Optikus

protesters are scumm,,, GET A LIFE YOU SADLITTLE PEOPLE !!!

chewy

"It is most likely that a hooligan element of the protest sparked off the police, while the majority were peaceful – as is the case with most protests that happen to get out of hand. It's not like the police went at them for no reason.2

police don't need a good reason to hit people that there job, its funny this type of crowd getting the treatment this time, it was just like rnc nyc protestors in new york

policeman1: go that way
policeman2: go t'other way,
policema1 move back move back
hunter: i can't physical move back theres 10,000 people behind me!!!
policeman3 4 5 and 6 tough! - twack twack thack!!!

from my, sorta crustie, perspective i find it ironic but again its just like fathers for justice they aren't getting responded to enough by how politics works today so are forced to use other ways... (well i trying to figure that thought out)

on uk indymedia somebody suggested along with the giggles and "haha, see how they like it"s that in a liberarian/anarchist world they wouldn't want a nationwide ban handed down by the government on _anything_ (even hunting for sport?), but then again they wouldn't be a need/function for killing for entertainment in that hypothetical situation or now

but it is a quandry people who don't want a big governement handing down laws from up on high being gleeful when one is handed down on an issue they don't like

dublinario

The Corinthian wrote:

The hunting debate in the UK is simply another leg in an ongoing clash of cultures between urban and rural Society. The UK Labour party’s support is overwhelmingly urban based and so it’s not too bothered where it comes to introducing laws that will be unpopular with people who won’t vote for them regardless.

So what? I'm not trying to sound glib, but seriously, so f*cking what? The will of the people, is the will of the people. There is overwhelming support for a ban on Fox Hunting in Britain. What are you suggesting, that we set up a new government for rural society so that the 'clash of cultures' won't occur? Or should rural folk be able to veto any laws made by 'urban' folk which tread on their idyllic, country-woven sensibilities?

Let me enlighten you to a simple tenet of democracy in a country such as England Corinthian. Most people live in city and suburban areas. Therefore, most voters live in urban areas. The corollary of this is that laws, effectively, are determined by urban dwellers, and some of those laws (shock, horror), will infringe upon our rural brethren.

The Corinthian wrote:

Additionally, to argue that only toffs support hunting would be a fairly ill-informed and idiotic opinion.

All generalisations by their very nature will dilute slightly under scrutiny Corinthian, but it doesn't make it entirely groundless. I would stand firm in my belief that Fox Hunting is a past time, predominantly, of the upper and middle classes. I'm astonished you would try to suggest otherwise. Don't be disingenuous.

Incidentally, did you see the part of last nights coverage when one protester was asked by a reporter how the violence started, and he said, in his finest Prince Charles-esque Toff accent '"I think there were some Football supporters up the front who started it". Did you see anybody wearing Football jerseys? Will you be disingenuous a second time and suggest that this moron didn't use 'football supporters' as a euphemism for 'working class'? Because that is exactly what he meant.

This debate is starting to feel reminiscent of the Smoking ban debate. The Smokers got up in arms saying "nobody can tell me not to smoke", silmilar to the Fox hunters in Britain saying "nobody can tell me what hobby to have". Both are intellectually dishonest arguments. The smoking ban stated that people cannot smoke in places where it will adversely effect the health of others. Similarly, the country toff's in Britain have been told that they cannot have a hobby that adversely effects the health of a Fox. It isn't rocket science, and I'm sure both the anti-smoke ban and anti Fox hunt ban lobbies will live to fight another day, hopefully for a more worthwhile cause

The Corinthian wrote:

On which point, I don’t think I’ve ever met an aristocrat who wore a monocle.

Jesus, develop a sense of humour. If you can't discern between the literal and the farcical, then kindly p*ss off and let the grown ups talk.

Redleslie2

Big Ears wrote:

Ive heard of lots of terrible things done to cats but people seriously hunted dogs where you grew up ?

Yeah, they used to hang them from trees, set them on fire, that kind of thing. The kids didn't abuse dogs half as much as cats because dogs, being friendlier, were easier to catch, no fun there. Dogs also have nasty bites so they were able to fight back. The kids outgrew this kind of hobby reasonably quickly though, unlike their social betters.

I know its equally cruel to kill both animals , but a huge amount of people love dogs(compared to cats) , was there no outrage at any dog killing that was known to be going on ?

Yeah there was but if you were part of the gang it was probably good craic.

ReefBreak

Good article here in the UK Times which I generally agree with.

Why, then, do opponents of hunting feel so passionately about saving foxes, but do not worry about the suffering of fish, cows and sheep? Why do many of the same activists attack women wearing mink or sable, but do not give a damn about leather shoes? The difference is not about morality but about class and tribe. Hunting, like fur, is identified with the rich and the toffs. Fishing, like leather and hamburgers, is an indulgence of the urban working class.

Oppenents of foxhunting should admit what they are really about - they hate the toffs. If it's not about that, why is there no ban on fishing?

Victor

ReefBreak wrote:

If it's not about that, why is there no ban on fishing?

Speciesism, out and out. We have to stick together with our fellow mammals. Them that fish could have entered the EU anyway they wanted, you just never know.

ReefBreak

I'm probably more anti-fox hunting that pro. However, in recent months I've begun to feel some sympathy for the pro-hunt lobby. I simply can't reconcile the fact that it's being banned when people still go out and snare fish with with hooks before battering them to death with a stick.

luckat wrote:

Ah yes, it's wonderful to see thousands of people out shouting and roaring and protesting at an attempt by their government to take away their God-given right to tear a little animal to pieces.

Are you also opposed to fishing?

mycroft wrote:

We Did not see this kind of outcry when they banned oh cockfighting and dog fighting.

On a local level fox hunting still exits in this country (there are over three hunts in wicklow) and it's likely that some refugees from the UK will come over to join our hunts.

Hmmmmm hunt sabotage, I have been meaning to take up an outdoor hobby.

Are you also opposed to fishing?

dublinario wrote:

There are probably a million ways to recreate. Find one that doesn't involve torturing and disembowling an animal for fun.

Are you also opposed to fishing?

I also have to say that I get very annoyed when I see clueless city people such as dublinario spouting on about the countryside, when they the only piece of grass they ever see is while watching the football on sky.