ICPSA Issues

Looper1

Pull!theother1 wrote:

The ICPSA are actively in contact with both justice and sport on the under 16 situation but it is too early to call yet.

Reading between the lines I would hazard a guess that you are on the committee of the ICPSA, can I ask why things are as bad as they seem to be or is everyone on this thread suffering from a persecution complex? I see you are saying that the information flow is poor but in any membership based organisation if you leave an information gap then the rumour mill will fill it.

No point giving out to the contributors for only tapping keys if they are being denied the basic information on what is going on in their organisation. I checked the ICPSA website and there is absolutely nothing on it about the activities of the association or what it is doing to improve the lot of its members or more practically what issues the committee are tackling on our behalf. The only communication I have ever had from the association is a notice of last years agm. One letter in one year.

Its not an easy job by any means to be on the committee of any organisation but like politics you make the choice to do it and have to take the flak when it comes.

A usual response to such an argument is something along the lines of "at least I stepped up to the plate to do my bit" but thats the problem, when someones bit is not good enough they tend to stay on anyway and not move aside for new blood to come in. Stagnation is the result, something I think may be happening within the ICPSA.

I am speaking from my own experience having been on the organising committee of two seperate organisations I can sympathise and pity at the same time.

Pull!theother1

I do not mind the flack when it is deserved and as I said we are far from perfect. Lack of information flow is a problem and a two way problem at that. At shoots I get hammered with complaints on this and that but when I ask people to put it in writing so as I can present it to the executive the apathy is deafening.
We as shooters just want to shoot but if we are not prepared to also officiate then we get the admistration we deserve.
I want no applause for trying to do a bit, and I can assure you that there are people on the executive who do and have done more than I. All I want is people to keep their comments current and relative and maybe we can do something about them.....
The most dangerous creature in any organisation is the "Serial Committee Member" who is present everywhere but does nothing, not that we have them of course. But every member of the Executive is there because someone voted them into office and are therefore there by right.

Pull!theother1

And as a foot note, part of the restriction on information is the fact that as the ICPSA is a Ltd. Co. what takes place at Executive Board meetings is privilaged and therefore to broadcast information on such meetings is contrary to the regulations, rightly or wrongly.

Sparks

The only thing about the written complaint requirement is that there is a perception amongst shooters that anyone who submits one has his or her card marked - and like all perceptions it doesn't necessarily have to be true to be believed.

Unfortunately, when you accept verbal complaints as well, you invariably get one or two shooters (out of several hundred) who'll monopolise the time of whatever committee member they get contact details for, and that's just as bad. Also, it's hard for the committee to know if the complaint they're hearing is precisely the one made by the shooter - what happens if the committee member relaying it misheard it in the first place, or remembers it incorrectly?

It's a thorny problem, unfortunately, and I don't have a good solution

Looper1

Pull!theother1 wrote:

And as a foot note, part of the restriction on information is the fact that as the ICPSA is a Ltd. Co. what takes place at Executive Board meetings is privilaged and therefore to broadcast information on such meetings is contrary to the regulations, rightly or wrongly.

There is no restriction based on company law that the proceedings of a board meeting must remain confidential, Any such provision is at the behest of and adopted soley by the board itself. Its not fair to imply that this is a valid reason for not communicating the proceedings of a board meeting.

The only such incumberance on the reporting of items discussed at a board meeting would refer to matters of a disciplinary nature with respect to an indivual/individuals and items proscribed by legal opinion or action.

So unless the matters being dicussed are sub judice its perfectly allright to discuss and disseminate any information as the board sees fit.

target

Sparks wrote:

The only thing about the written complaint requirement is that there is a perception amongst shooters that anyone who submits one has his or her card marked - and like all perceptions it doesn't necessarily have to be true to be believed.

Not wishing to add any fuel to a fire but here's an anecdotal story:

I wrote a letter to the the Secretary of the ICPSA back in July 2003 looking for clarification about selection shoots, I addressed my comments directly to the Secretary and the Executive.

I received no response to that letter, so I sent another a month later and I asked for the courtesy of a reply to my previous letter and specifically to two questions I had raised in my original letter.

I got a one liner back, "Your letter was read to the executive and its contents noted" no response other than that.

Pull!theother1

I would like to think that having your card marked is not the end of the world as I was no angel in the past, allegedly, but stood my ground and wound up on the executive, for the moment. As Sparks so rightly said, a verbal crib is no good at top level as apart from the fact that we would each end up with a bucket full of gripes to present, people often exagerate verbaly what they may be more careful in accusing in written, signed form.
Not being a law expert, I will accept what Looper1 says at face value. Unfortunetly decisions made at Executive level seem to be contested at every turn these days and solicitors letters must be very cheap. And when details of who said what about whom leaks out, personal pursuits seem to be the order of the day. So the simplest way seems to be just say nothing and issue rulings. Whats the answer? Right or wrong it is the way it is for now.....
As for Targets letter, I cannot realy comment as I do not know the circumstances, but I would not be very happy with that response either if I were him and the issue was obviously so personaly important. At the risk of being naieve, did you write to complain about the response? No, I do not work on commision for An Post!

Looper1

Pull!theother1 wrote:

Unfortunetly decisions made at Executive level seem to be contested at every turn these days and solicitors letters must be very cheap. And when details of who said what about whom leaks out, personal pursuits seem to be the order of the day. So the simplest way seems to be just say nothing and issue rulings. Whats the answer? Right or wrong it is the way it is for now.....

I understand, but unfortunately the solution that has been adopted to remedy the problem it is also contributing to the problem.

If legal intervention is required to contest a decision then so be it, it is an individual members right to contest a decision he/she feels has put them to a disadvantage.

The decisions of a voluntary organisation should be open to scrutiny and to challenge, I think this would also eliminate any potential profiteering by commercial shooting grounds should their principles become committee members.

I am led to believe about 50 euro per page for a standard solicitors letter these days.

Sparks

I'd like to think this forum could act as an aid to the situation - I mean, I've often heard people wonder where the money in the NTSA goes to - hopefully my earlier post cleared that up.

As to the minutes, I've long believed that it's highly counterproductive for the board minutes to remain confidential (with a short list of exceptions for things such as disciplinary hearings which should remain between board and athlete until a conclusion is reached; legal cases which are still underway; and so on - but the shorter the list, the better). I've heard it said that this means the committee would feel stifled in what they could say, but from two years of such meetings, that's rubbish - minutes are rarely verbatim, if ever; recordings aren't kept; and if the board is making a decision that affects the shooters, it ought to be sufficently comfortable with the decision as to make it's reasoning public. However, I'm in a minority on this belief, mainly because, as pull says, soliciters letters seem to be very cheap these days - and the NTSA certainly can't afford to keep a legal staff on retainer!

The other point to note, and I don't want to sound defensive here because I firmly believe that once you get defensive you cease to be as productive, is that while people have been rather fast to complain about the ICPSA, I've not seen anyone volunteering quite so rapidly; and I've still only seen two submissions to the Department of Justice regarding firearms act amendments and one of those was mine! I mean, if you're reading this, you're already online, so how much extra can it cost you to write a short, civil, polite email to the DoJ?

Looper1

Over lunch, I took the advice of Pull!theother1 and decided to have a quick look at the accounts filed in the CRO over the last few years just to see what all the fuss was about. Access to the CRO is a privilege of my job and my professional curiosity was piqued by some of the comments posted here.

I have to say that they make for interesting reading, not for what they say but for what they omit.

The accounts filed for 2003 encompass a 17 month period taking into account a year end change. Perfectly normal practice, but I see that the accounts filed contain essentially the minimum financial information that a private small company has to put into the public arena.

Within the profit and loss section there are entries showing income of 274,711 euro and an expenditure of 257,399 euro. Significant amounts, but unfortunately without the presence of a cash flow statement or schedule indicating how the income and expenditure figures were arrived at, these figures remain just that, headline figures.

It is not a requirement under the companies act to provide a breakdown of these figures in its public filings; however, neither does it make for transparency.

Separate to this is a note on the accounts with respect to grant aid. I see retained and received grants totalling 298,516 euro and subsequently this total amount paid out over the same period. This also is a significant amount that certainly would benefit from a more itemised explanation of its allocation.

I also noticed in the accounts dated 2001 that a more itemised approach was taken to the accounts where separate schedules were included for the income and expenditure lines of Ashbourne and the ICPSA but that this practice was discontinued from 2002 onwards.

From years of past experience I have observed the strife that association accounts can cause and to date the only remedy that I know that works is to provide for the full and open disclosure of the financials to the membership. While I can understand that most members would have little or no interest in such matters there appears to be a few on this forum who do. So here is what you can do:

Any paid up member of an organisation which is incorporated as a company limited by guarantee is entitled to obtain a full copy of the organisations accounts, including schedules of income and expenditure and not just the public filings. I believe Pull!theother1 correctly referred to this in a previous post. If you want this information then you can request a copy of the full accounts from the Treasurer, he is obliged to supply them bearing in mind that they cannot be shown to someone who is not a paid up member and you must give an undertaking to respect the confidentiality of them in that respect.

target

Pull!theother1 wrote:

As for Targets letter, I cannot realy comment as I do not know the circumstances, but I would not be very happy with that response either if I were him and the issue was obviously so personaly important. At the risk of being naieve, did you write to complain about the response? No, I do not work on commision for An Post!

To answer your question I took it no further, I sort of felt I was hitting a wall and while I was quite annoyed about it I felt for the good of the association I should let the matter lie and not pursue it, it was just one of those things I don't think anyone wanted to answer.

target

Looper1 wrote:

Separate to this is a note on the accounts with respect to grant aid. I see retained and received grants totalling 298,516 euro and subsequently this total amount paid out over the same period. This also is a significant amount that certainly would benefit from a more itemised explanation of its allocation.

I know that a chunk of this grant aid was allocated to the Olympic Trap team on the basis of their World Championship win in Finland. Out of that a support team was created by the sports council and was funded for a year. As looper1 says its easy to find out where it went, I might have a go at getting the accounts myself just to try and kill the suspicion thats appearing here on the board.

entropy

i love your website and pity you cant cover the dtl scene, were dying for some coverage in the papers particularly since we won the dtl home international last year and got shag all said about it in the papers, can you put up the scores from the shoots at least. that would be great!

Pull!theother1

Entropy, I hate to be the bearer of bad news but it is two years since we won the DTL..........
If you check the ICPSA web site now you will see the European DTL results as well as the OT Home countries, Skeet, Sporting etc so we are trying. Check on results and wait a little as it seems to be a bit slow downloading sometimes. A member of the executive recently took charge of the web site which up to then was out of our hands and handled externally. While this man is no computer whiz, and he will not mind me saying that, he hopes to make progress over the coming months. Again another volunteer with good intentions.
Results are of value when immediate and current so if you have any, attach them on an e-mail to our secretary and he will forward them to the appropraite person.
Money is the root of all evil, and while the association does have a large amount of money flowing through its accounts, grants and insurance make up a large amount. As I said, I am no accountant and am willing to accept professional oppinion when told everything is in order. The auditors are present at the AGM and will I am sure answer any and all questions. Maybe this time they will earn their substantial wad........
Is the ICPSA still seen as the dark side of the force now, or is this proving worthwhile? Keep it coming.

Pull!theother1

By the way, all our shooting successes were broadcast to the media over the past few years, but less than 1% of all press releases are even read...... Any suggestions that do not involve Batman suits or heights?

entropy

Pull!theother1 wrote:

By the way, all our shooting successes were broadcast to the media over the past few years, but less than 1% of all press releases are even read...... Any suggestions that do not involve Batman suits or heights?

see my other post about running an open day and inviting the lot of them to attend specially the politicians

entropy

Pull!theother1 wrote:

Entropy, I hate to be the bearer of bad news but it is two years since we won the DTL...........

yeah your right cant even remeber my age at the mo, all this shift work is scrambling my brains

understand the problem of keeping the icpsa website going. its been off the air for the last year or so but love to read the scores and see whos doing well. cant the grounds send the scores to the secretary?

Pull!theother1

entropy wrote:

yeah your right cant even remeber my age at the mo, all this shift work is scrambling my brains

understand the problem of keeping the icpsa website going. its been off the air for the last year or so but love to read the scores and see whos doing well. cant the grounds send the scores to the secretary?

Believe it or not it is hard enough to get some of the grounds to return scores to the statistical officer, so do you realy think they could be induced to return them to the secretary? Are you happy with our improved efforts so far?
You appear to be a DTL addict, and am I right in saying that you may be from Leinster? In that case why do you not offer your services to your sport through your province? Leinster has it appears not been in a position to volunteer anyone on to the DTL sub-committee this past season and no names for next year yet either. And as you know it is the sub-committees who make all the important recommendations to the Executive, for their approval, on the various disciplines, so this could be your chance to have your say and do your bit without having to sit at the top table!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

entropy

Pull!theother1 wrote:

Believe it or not it is hard enough to get some of the grounds to return scores to the statistical officer, so do you realy think they could be induced to return them to the secretary? Are you happy with our improved efforts so far?
You appear to be a DTL addict, and am I right in saying that you may be from Leinster? In that case why do you not offer your services to your sport through your province? Leinster has it appears not been in a position to volunteer anyone on to the DTL sub-committee this past season and no names for next year yet either. And as you know it is the sub-committees who make all the important recommendations to the Executive, for their approval, on the various disciplines, so this could be your chance to have your say and do your bit without having to sit at the top table!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Would love to be involved at th elocal level but the job makes that difficult with all the shift work thats involved but on second thoughts there was a load of bloodshed at the last leinster agm, like a scene from the sopranos so whatever about the top table we have enough problems around the kitchen table.

Sparks

Blood on the floor of AGMs seems to be a recurring theme throughout the administration of target shooting
(Mind you, so is the relative obscurity of the decision-making process at the top table, so I suspect a link myself).

entropy

Sparks wrote:

Blood on the floor of AGMs seems to be a recurring theme throughout the administration of target shooting
(Mind you, so is the relative obscurity of the decision-making process at the top table, so I suspect a link myself).

yeah i agree fully with you, seems as though we have problems in all the associations that follow the same theme, would love to be told what the decision making process is but after the last few days here im convinced im banging my head of the wall. easy to say that everything is ok and above board when no one know what goes on ! need my holidays badly

Pull!theother1

entropy wrote:

Would love to be involved at th elocal level but the job makes that difficult with all the shift work thats involved but on second thoughts there was a load of bloodshed at the last leinster agm, like a scene from the sopranos so whatever about the top table we have enough problems around the kitchen table.

Is this a cop out I see before me? The DTL Sub-committee meets six or seven evenings per year on avarage in a midlands base, so as to be central, and the co-ordinator sets the dates so as to suit everyone. Heres your chance to represent yourself and your sport and get all the answers you may ever seek...... Or do you prefer to just sit back and snipe at those who try to do things?

Looper1

I must admit, I am quite surprised at the intransigent approach being taken by some of the posters on this site. While freedom of speech is beautiful to behold, some of the posts I have had the pleasure to read stretch the term “defending the indefensible” to a new level.

While I am sure the ICPSA committee is a group of hard working and dedicated individuals, I would refer you to my opening post where I make reference to the undeniable fact that the association appears to suffer a chronic blockage when it comes to communication with its membership.

Again there is no point trying to turn the tables on those critical of the association by telling them to serve on committees and what not; that would appear to be the standard retort when the subject being discussed is of an unpalatable nature. I noticed very few if any straight replies to any of the issues being raised in this discussion and I think having browsed them all at this point that there is an unwillingness to admit or deal openly with some core issues affecting the accountability of the association to its membership.

Obfuscation appears to be the modus operandi.

I believe I have highlighted some areas on which the committee of the ICPSA should reflect and would urge those with a connection to them to forward the transcripts of the message board so that they can do so.

As I referred to in my opening comments at the start of this thread, I have had many years experience with voluntary organisations and it is my belief that without substantial change in the manner in which the ICPSA is operated, its future will remain a case of “more of the same”.

I feel my contribution to this thread and subject matter is now at a close and I leave it somewhat more disillusioned than when I joined it.

Pull!theother1

Looper1 wrote:

I must admit, I am quite surprised at the intransigent approach being taken by some of the posters on this site. While freedom of speech is beautiful to behold, some of the posts I have had the pleasure to read stretch the term “defending the indefensible” to a new level.

That is the great thing about freedom of speech, you have your view and I am perfectly entitled to my view, which no matter what you may feel is of equal importance and equally liable to be the right one.

While I am sure the ICPSA committee is a group of hard working and dedicated individuals, I would refer you to my opening post where I make reference to the undeniable fact that the association appears to suffer a chronic blockage when it comes to communication with its membership.

True, but how to remedy? At last meeting in the region of 60 or so pieces of correspondence were presented. Which ones do you need to know of, how do we decide which ones need to be broadcast without being accused of with-holding and how do we make them known? Anything on which a decision was made which affects the shooters or the sport will be made known to those concerned through their implementation, as will any recommendations made to the executive by sub-committees and ratified.

Again there is no point trying to turn the tables on those critical of the association by telling them to serve on committees and what not; that would appear to be the standard retort when the subject being discussed is of an unpalatable nature. I noticed very few if any straight replies to any of the issues being raised in this discussion and I think having browsed them all at this point that there is an unwillingness to admit or deal openly with some core issues affecting the accountability of the association to its membership.

I hope that when someone asks a question that they actualy want an answer. Since I came to this site there were lots of insinuations and allegations made against the association which went silent when I tried to put right personnaly or else tried to direct to where an answer could be sought when I could not. If people are not willing to help themselves then they deserve no help. It is very easy to knock from the sidelines but such moral high ground is lost when the opportunity to solve your own problems are passed up because it might require some personal effort and therefore join the legion of volunteers so maligned by some of late......

Obfuscation appears to be the modus operandi.

I believe I have highlighted some areas on which the committee of the ICPSA should reflect and would urge those with a connection to them to forward the transcripts of the message board so that they can do so.

And what would it achieve? We have people whose identities are unknown making allegations unsubstantiated, expressing views uncorroborated on matters unassociated. I will and have let individuals know of what is going on but no matter how self important some of us may feel, what is going on here concerns the views of but a handful of people among thousands. As I have previously said, if you believe that something is wrong, then please take the effort to put it in written format, attributable to an individual, and send it to the secretary and I can assure you 100% that it will receive a hearing at the next executive meeting. What more can be promissed, realistically?

As I referred to in my opening comments at the start of this thread, I have had many years experience with voluntary organisations and it is my belief that without substantial change in the manner in which the ICPSA is operated, its future will remain a case of “more of the same”.

That is unless more people are prepared to "do" rather than just "say". I do not mean for this to be a slagging match but if people are not happy with something then it is their right and duty, if so bothered, to try and change things. Change may not occur overnight, but if you do not try, how will you know what can be achieved? In stead of just leaving it to others, what are YOU actualy prepared to DO?

I feel my contribution to this thread and subject matter is now at a close and I leave it somewhat more disillusioned than when I joined it.

Sorry that you feel that way. But if you are so easily disillusioned perhaps it is best if you do just walk away.........

Looper1

Pull!theother1 wrote:

Sorry that you feel that way. But if you are so easily disillusioned perhaps it is best if you do just walk away.........

My! My!, but isn't that a petulant statement!

I am breaching my own cardinal rule here and will give some direct and public advice to the committee of the ICPSA.

1. Publish the minutes of your meetings. Minutes capture the issues and the decisions that directly involve the association and its membership. It is not a transcript of the meeting and I notice that your fellow association the CPSA do likewise on their website.

2. Initiate regular written correspondence to your membership. Not everyone has access to the Internet and your website. The annual calendar is not the mechanism to achieve this.

3. Include a full set of accounts, not the public filings, each year to the membership, they are entitled to see the transparency of these accounts and please not imply that the auditors are the arbitrators of transparency in this matter, they are not and should not be held up as so.

4. Any financial transaction, other than normal expenses, between members of the committee and the association should be declared in advance to the membership giving details as to the nature of the transaction being considered.

5. The disposal of any athlete grant aid or capital grant aid received by or on behalf of the association must be fully disclosed to the membership, I have witnessed on this site much discussion as to the amounts and merits of such allocations and it does not further the sport or the association to leave such matters open to misinterpretation.

6. Set a term of office on your committee members, force rotation of directors, this is an accepted mechanism within business to ensure that the powers of executive office are not institutionalised and new life is continually breathed into an organisation.

7. Change your AGM voting process to one man one vote, proxy voting by clubs is not democratic and will not reflect the true wishes of the membership.

8. Publish your strategic plan for the association and indicate its current progress on a regular basis, perhaps through the mechanism as detailed in item 2. Does the association even have a plan?

I could go on but I would probably have to charge for more advice.

I do not wish to engage in head butting, that only ends up with both parties suffering sore heads!

Pull!theother1

Do not worry, my head is not so easily damaged.

At last, a wish list that we can build upon.

Would it be too much (I am not being sarcastic) to ask you to present these proposals at your provincial AGM so that they can receive the support they will need to be ratified at the national AGM?

Cotrary to what you may believe, if the majority of the membership want something and are willing to see it funded etc. then that is what the Association is for, is it not, Executive included? It is after all YOUR Association!

So now that the talking stage is over, lets move on to some doing........

Looper1

Pull!theother1 wrote:

Do not worry, my head is not so easily damaged.

Sorry, but I was refering to my own head at the time!

Pull!theother1 wrote:

At last, a wish list that we can build upon.

Again sorry to disappoint, it is not a wish list. It is a critical appraisal of the various topics which appeared through this thread and a prospective remedy.

Pull!theother1 wrote:

Would it be too much (I am not being sarcastic) to ask you to present these proposals at your provincial AGM so that they can receive the support they will need to be ratified at the national AGM?

Once again sorry to disappoint, this is public advice aimed at the both the membership and the appointed officers of the association. It is not for presentation via any provincial AGM but for discussion solely on this website. If you feel any of the items here have merit and that they should be progressed then tell the forum so and if you do not then also tell us so and contribute constructively by telling us why?

What I believe this forum is trying to do is to encourage an open and honest critique of the sport of shooting and of all the issues that affect it. It is not a forum where blanket statements of “contact the Secretary” or “stand up and present these issues in writing” add to the mix of what I hope is a free exchange of thoughts for debate and analysis.

Pull!theother1 wrote:

Cotrary to what you may believe, if the majority of the membership want something and are willing to see it funded etc. then that is what the Association is for, is it not, Executive included? It is after all YOUR Association!

I am glad to see you mentioned that the association is also YOUR association. That is indeed the aspiration that I subscribe to. However, it is not acceptable to infer that if there are issues in play with the association that they can only be aired or discussed by putting them on record through direct correspondence with the association. Forgive me for thinking this was a discussion forum and not a confessional box where for my penance I must commit my thoughts in writing to the secretary of the association.

Pull!theother1 wrote:

So now that the talking stage is over, lets move on to some doing........

Oh please!, stop this nonsense, this is a discussion board! It is all about talking, please join in and contribute to the discussion and stop being so bombastic.

Pull!theother1

I got involved in this because people were making accusations, inferences and general all round acts of mud slinging against the ICPSA and some of the individuals who try to contribute to its existence and continued progress and "I" believed that that was wrong and needed correction.

People I though were seeking answers, but when given a chance to get these answers, for themselves, they were not long going to ground.

Looper 1's list of suggestions are just that, HIS LIST. If HE did not feel strongly enough about them to do something HIMSELF, why should anyone else do it for him?

The ICPSA is your association, it is my association, it is OUR association! Like it or not it is all we have and as such when joining you accept the rules, regulations and traditions of the association. If you disagree, as is your right, then do something about it.

I am willing to put my money, my effort, my time and indeed at times my reputation where my mouth is and I actualy "DO" things. It is not for glory or recognition or self gratification but because I want to give back to a sport which has given me so much over the years.

It is very easy to whinge and bitch about what is wrong with the association, and there are things that are wrong, but unless the majority of shooters are willing to ratify change, and that involves a few individuals doing a bit of graft to get things to a stage where such can happen, then it will remain a case of service as usual. And you can blame no one but yourself.

This forum is indeed a great talking shop, but only that. What is said at the end of the day matters not a rats, but if it induces a few, or even one person to actualy do something, then that is progress.

I have noticed a change in the tone of some posts of late and I suppose it is the nature of the beast to be upset when the truth, or other peoples version of the truth, may hurt. To me it matters not a jot as I will still be shooting and the ICPSA will still go on. As a sport and an association we have what we have because people did things for themselves, which also benefitted others as a result. And this will continue to be the case.

If you have a question, I will direct you to an answer if I can. If I can I will attempt to right wrongs as I see them at the earliest opportunity. But if you cannot be bothered to help yourself, and I use you in the plural, well you have my condolences. Have you ever tried golf?

Looper1

Pull!theother1 wrote:

Looper 1's list of suggestions are just that, HIS LIST. If HE did not feel strongly enough about them to do something HIMSELF, why should anyone else do it for him?

I'm afraid I'm getting tired of this merry-go-round. Without wishing to sound facetious if you were to re-read my comment and you will see that I am asking for a discussion through this forum with regard to the 8 points of advice I laid out.

<snip>

Sparks

Okay folks, there's a basic rule of the forum here - no personal attacks. You attack the post, not the poster. No slights, no casting aspersions.

Looper1

I'm sorry but my tolerance for sufferance has been exceeded! While I congratulate the moderators on managing an excellent forum for the discussion of the shooting sports, I must decline to continue my contribution in the face of such an obstinate refusal to enter into debate.

I hold out little hope for the shooting community if debate on the future of the sport is stifled in such a manner. I fear we will get what we deserve in legislative control if this is is representative of the best arguments that an association can bring to bear in debate of its future.