Do you see a place for Turkey in the EU?

bonkey

halkar wrote:

That is my point, maybe those people would have been alive if EU didn't ignore Turkey for decades.

Maybe they would have been, but - quite bluntly - so what?

Are you suggesting that the EU should now also not take an interest and accept whatever ongoing abuses are there as part of Turkish life and allow them in?

If so, then what is the point of criticising them for not offering more encouragement in the past?

Alternately, if you're not suggesting that they be overlooked, then I fail to see the disagreement. You agree that there are still issues which need to be resolved, and that turning a blind eye on such issues is wrong.

If anything, offering Turkey EU membership dependant on cleaning up its act is exactly the type of interest you're bemoaning the historical lack of. You can argue that the EU will benefit more than Turkey all you like, but the simple truth is that Turkey wants in....and that gives the EU the carrot it needs to do something about now, whatever about what it failed to do in the past.

You might as well dig for the human right records of the ex-commies that have joined EU, they were no angels either.

No - you might as well dig for the current state of human rights in those nations. They were set clear goals, and they achieved them - something which Turkey has yet to do.

Look - if mycroft was posting current abuses, you'd presumably dismiss them as unproven allegations. He posts proven cases instead and you're dismissing them as old hat. The fact remains, however, that there is a proven history of abuse and little proof that it has changed sufficiently.

Romania will join, so do you want Romania with it's human rights records?

I want Romania with their current human right record, which is what they were judged on. Similarly, when Turkey meet their targets, I will agree that their human rights record is no longer an obstacle.

After all, Germany has hardly a stellar human rights history from earlier in the 20th century, but I don't hear anyone crying out that they too should be kicked out.

You can complain about 50 years of a lack of foreign "encouragement" all you like, but the simple fact is that the encouragement is there today. Romania may have decades of historical abuse, but the standards today meet the EU requirements. The standards in Turkey do not, and you can insist otherwise all you like but unless you want to explain why the EU still finds that to be so it doesn't hold water.

jc

mike65

mycroft, look at Northern Ireland some would say ethnic cleasning of a type took place there in the late 60s as streets of Ronan Catholics homes were burned out. A few years latter both the UK and ROI joined. Romania which will a member soon has been the home of nasty violence towards ethnic Hungarians. Turkey is'nt unique and its behaviour won't improve through being shut out of the EU. Rather it should be given a target to meet (which
de-facto it has).

Mike.

cleareyed

No. Until the great day when Islam is seen as just one religion among many and all are considered by the majority as superstitions

mycroft

mike65 wrote:

mycroft, look at Northern Ireland some would say ethnic cleasning of a type took place there in the late 60s as streets of Ronan Catholics homes were burned out. A few years latter both the UK and ROI joined. Romania which will a member soon has been the home of nasty violence towards ethnic Hungarians. Turkey is'nt unique and its behaviour won't improve through being shut out of the EU. Rather it should be given a target to meet (which
de-facto it has).

Mike.

and where do I said that it should be excluded in fact I say that the EU restrictions on Turkey's membership were the only way we can force turkey to change.

Furthermore Turkey's abuse is state sanctioned and to a level that outdoes the british governments to a phenomnially horrifying degree

arcadegame2004

I can't imagine Israel would want to join the EU for a host of reasons

I disagree. On a number of occasions the Likud government has expressed a desire to join up (or at least some such as Netanyahu if my memory serves me correctly). One advantage from their point of view would be securing the 25-40% of their exports going to the EU. They could avoid EU economic sanctions over their treatment of the Palestinians by being in the EU.

On Turkey, I have often stated my support on this forum for eventual EU membership for Turkey. That was before this adultery law, however. Turkey must drop this stupid law or else be kept out. We don't want "adulterous" :rolleyes: Irish couples being thrown into a Turkish jail, before being tortured, raped etc. and all the rest of abuses for which the Turkish prison-system is notorious.

I would also insist on a transition-period during which immigration-controls would pertain, preferably with us opting in this time.

sliabh

People (who have not been watching the news recently) keep mentioning it so I can tell you now that Turkey is not criminalising adultry, that part of the legislation was dropped by the Turkish government last week:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3654650.stm

As for Turkish laws and human rights abuses: the current process proposed by the EU is that if they feel Turkey has done enough to warrant it, then in December of this year Turkey will be given an date for the start of discussions to enter the EU. This milestone is dependant on their making a range of changes to their laws (including those on torture, human rights and treatment of the Kurds).

The negotiations themselves could take 10 years or more (the current best estimate that I have seen in several reputable sources) and in that time Turkey would be expected to adopt and follow the various legal requirements for EU membership. This include everything from having a functioning market economy to the EU rights legislation. So by the time Turkey would be admitted (which would be over a decade from now at the earliest) it would look a lot different to how it does now.

arcadegame2004

Actually Sliabh, it is open to question whether or not the adultery-ban has really been dropped altogether. At first it seemed this was on the cards, until it emerged that what is actually happening is a delay in the reforms to Turkey's penal code (The adultery-ban was part of this reform). It is possible then that the ban will return (probably after Turkey gets the go ahead for EU membership-negotiations.


http://www.eubusiness.com/afp/040920104311.ovd6yh82

Turkey received a blunt warning Monday that its burning desire to open talks to join the European Union will be snubbed unless it passes an overhaul of its penal code.....Erdogan's Justice and Development Party unexpectedly pulled the bill off the parliament floor on Thursday -- apparently to reintroduce a highly controversial clause that would restore adultery as a criminal offence.

MadsL

AGkeepthebuggersout2004 wrote:

I would also insist on a transition-period during which immigration-controls would pertain, preferably with us opting in this time.

Had to get that in there didn'tcha... :rolleyes:

My point would be that the EU cannot afford to be seen as the Christian Club, and there is no better way to sort out human rights issues than the carrot of EU membership.

The basics are already there;
Free media
Separation of church and state
Open debate in parliament


In many ways as has been pointed out, Turkey is in many ways in a better condition for entry than Ireland when it entered the EU (contraception, divorce and abortion all illegal, seriously depressed economy, border/religious armed conflict)

The message that gets sent if Turkey are refused entry is at too great a price to moves towards liberal democracy in Turkey and the Middle East.

Victor

I think that the carrot of EU membership has to be there. While human rights are an issue, they aren't the only ones. Cyprus, the maritime border with Greece, Turkish incursions into Iraq and other political issues need to be dealt with.

I would be supportive of gradual, as opposed to "big bang" entry.

mycroft

AAARRGHHH If theres one thing sure to put me in a bad mood on a Tuesday it's having arcadegame on my side.....

Free media

Nope. Kurdish language is, barely, just barely getting on Turkish TV and the Kurdish TV station has to broadcast from Belguim via satelite.

Separation of church and state

In name only. I'm sorry say what you like about Ireland in the 50s we didn't have the custom of honour killings.

Open debate in parliament

Again for the Turkish majority, I refer you back to this amnesty report, Kurdish minority is still oppressed.

I agree with both Victor and Bonkey on this, EU membership is a carrot to force Turkey to reform (anyone else beginning to see the EU like ST's federation in terms of pompous self righteousness?) and how EU membership forced the liberalisation of this country in the 60s, but Turkey's human rights record is profoundly appalling to scale unheard of for potential EU member states. This will be a long, slow and unfortunately for the Kurds, painful process.

therecklessone

mycroft wrote:

EU membership is a carrot to force Turkey to reform

[pedant alert]Entice with carrot, force with stick[/pedant alert]

Its an important distinction, we shouldn't force Turkey to do anything.

mycroft

[pedant alert]Entice with carrot, force with stick[/pedant alert]Its an important distinction, we shouldn't force Turkey to do anything.

Ever been hit with sharpened carrot? could lose a fecking eye easy.

Friends of mine were involved in the Illisu dam campaign forcing British companies to withdraw from the dam contracts which eventually finished off the project. That is the kind of pressure that should be exerted.

halkar

mycroft wrote:

Ever been hit with sharpened carrot? could lose a fecking eye easy.

Friends of mine were involved in the Illisu dam campaign forcing British companies to withdraw from the dam contracts which eventually finished off the project. That is the kind of pressure that should be exerted.

Every developing country needs its electricity and most dam projects involved some movement of people in the long term all country benefits. They tried nuclear plants but land is not suitable due earthquakes and nuclear plants are not safe either.

I wonder would you or any of your campaigners cared if they were Turks but not Kurds?

mycroft

Three reasons why the damn is wrong

By regulating the flow of the River Tigris, the Ilisu Dam has the capacity to severely deplete the level of water downstream. Situated only 65km from the border with Syria and Iraq, the dam threatens the prospect of 'water wars' with these neighbouring countries.

Nor is there much hope of proper compensation for those Kurds who are forced to leave their land. It is estimated that about 40% of villagers do not have a legal title to their property. Many do not even know that they are entitled to compensation. Using Turkish law to claim remuneration is made difficult in a region where a number of local people are illiterate and a large percentage do not speak Turkish.

Many consider this part of a wider strategy to ethnically cleanse the area of Kurds. Since 1984, the region has been devastated by armed conflict between the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) and the Turkish State. Around three million people have been displaced, 3,000 villages partially or totally destroyed, and over 30,000 people killed.

I wonder would you or any of your campaigners cared if they were Turks but not Kurds?

You are implying that I would not care if they were Turks? Where the hell do you get off accusing me of racism? Where is your evidence? Your attitude when critized is to fire unsubstantiated or unrelated allegations back at me.

Which makes sense considering you can't defend the indefensible.

halkar

mycroft wrote:

By regulating the flow of the River Tigris, the Ilisu Dam has the capacity to severely deplete the level of water downstream. Situated only 65km from the border with Syria and Iraq, the dam threatens the prospect of 'water wars' with these neighbouring countries..

Still in their border look at the map. It makes no difference if it was 65km or 300km from borders. There are many dams on those rivers part of GAP project to bring some prosperity to the area but thank to your PKK terrorists all got delayed until the ceasefire. Only then investment started to move Southeast and now we have PKK left overs so called KADEK and KONGRA-GEL.

Many consider this part of a wider strategy to ethnically cleanse the area of Kurds. Since 1984, the region has been devastated by armed conflict between the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) and the Turkish State. Around three million people have been displaced, 3,000 villages partially or totally destroyed, and over 30,000 people killed.

Do you really think all of South Eastern Turkey is Kurdish? Most of these people displaced, killed and villages destroyed are Turks too not only Kurdish. That is something that you wont see or hear in western media as well as the amount of people have been killed since KONGRA-GEL ended their cease fire recently.

I am not accusing you of racist but you should also flip your coin and see the other side too. There are many changes in the country and many of these takes years to implement. Turkey is not joining to EU yet, they are only starting the talks but seeing EU saying "we won't talk to you unless you change your adultery laws" is pure stupid. They could have easily use their human right issues instead of something like this. Since when adultery got anything to do with human rights?

bonkey

halkar wrote:

Do you really think all of South Eastern Turkey is Kurdish? Most of these people displaced, killed and villages destroyed are Turks too not only Kurdish.

Let me get this straight...you're saying that the majority of those affected are not Kurds ???

I am not accusing you of racist but you should also flip your coin and see the other side too. There are many changes in the country and many of these takes years to implement.

Yes, and thats why the EU has acknowledged that it is willing to consider Turkish membership if the improvements continue. The EU has acknowledged that Turkey is on the right path, but has a ways to go yet.

Exactly what more do you want?

Turkey is not joining to EU yet, they are only starting the talks but seeing EU saying "we won't talk to you unless you change your adultery laws" is pure stupid.

Why? The EU is looking for Turkey to implement positive reform, and to show that it is working to change its legal system for the better.

Opposing new laws which make the human-rights situation worse iis entirely consistent with the approach of encouraging reform and improvement. Its interesting to see that your call for a less blinkered view classifies it as stupid when someone protests against a move towards the unacceptable.

They could have easily use their human right issues instead of something like this. Since when adultery got anything to do with human rights?

Well, if you look at the proposed law and the objections against it you might figure it out....

jc

mycroft

Still in their border look at the map. It makes no difference if it was 65km or 300km from borders. There are many dams on those rivers part of GAP project to bring some prosperity to the area but thank to your PKK terrorists all got delayed until the ceasefire. Only then investment started to move Southeast and now we have PKK left overs so called KADEK and KONGRA-GEL.

Ah so instead of examing the enviromental impact, compensation for those displaced, and examining the geo political ramifications, you just tell me it's the PKKs fault. I'm sure that'd have provided comfort and shelter for the thousands misplaced. Turkey sure as hell didn't

Do you really think all of South Eastern Turkey is Kurdish?

No only most of it

southeastern Turkey, which has a mainly Kurdish population,

That is something that you wont see or hear in western media as well as the amount of people have been killed since KONGRA-GEL ended their cease fire recently.

Don't suppose you could provide a link to support that? No didn't think so. In the red corner Turkey NATO member huge army, in the blue corner poorly armed rebels in an area dominated by their ethic group. I'd be really interested if you could supply any facts which suggests more Turks have been killed, disappeared, misplaced, and tortured by KONGRA-GEL then Kurds by the Government of Turkey.

I am not accusing you of racist but you should also flip your coin and see the other side too. There are many changes in the country and many of these takes years to implement. Turkey is not joining to EU yet, they are only starting the talks but seeing EU saying "we won't talk to you unless you change your adultery laws" is pure stupid. They could have easily use their human right issues instead of something like this. Since when adultery got anything to do with human rights?

See what Bonkey said.......

halkar

bonkey wrote:

Let me get this straight...you're saying that the majority of those affected are not Kurds ???

They are all Turks regardless if they are kurdish, turkish or other ethnichs. Many people displaced were due terrorism in the area which was not even supported by kurds living in Turkey. Let me make it clear, we are not talking about few thousands here there are almost 15 million Kurds in Turkey. If they all supported PKK or KADEK and KONGRA-GEL country would be in civil war now. So speak for those 15 million not only what you see on amnesty sites.

Yes, and thats why the EU has acknowledged that it is willing to consider Turkish membership if the improvements continue. The EU has acknowledged that Turkey is on the right path, but has a ways to go yet.

Exactly what more do you want?

Maybe EU is willing to consider but how long do you think Turkey and people of Turkey going to let EU interfere with their internal affairs? Its all do this do that and at the end of the day something else come up. Look what happened in Cyprus, it was Greeks that turned down the UN and EU supported plan and yet they joined EU.

Why? The EU is looking for Turkey to implement positive reform, and to show that it is working to change its legal system for the better.

Opposing new laws which make the human-rights situation worse iis entirely consistent with the approach of encouraging reform and improvement. Its interesting to see that your call for a less blinkered view classifies it as stupid when someone protests against a move towards the unacceptable.

You have to remember the fact that Turkey is a Muslim country and adultery is outlawed in many Muslim countries. They can change their legal system and they have done so for many things but the fact is many things EU wants from Turkey was not asked to other candidates.

Well, if you look at the proposed law and the objections against it you might figure it out....

I think divorce is more of a human right than adultery, many laws passes but doesn't always get implemented. So what is proposed doesn't always mean what will be implemented. That is why I would call EU's attitude stupid.

All in all I would like to see Turkey joining EU but I doubt it will ever happen.

sliabh

mycroft wrote:

Don't suppose you could provide a link to support that? No didn't think so. In the red corner Turkey NATO member huge army, in the blue corner poorly armed rebels in an area dominated by their ethic group. I'd be really interested if you could supply any facts which suggests more Turks have been killed, disappeared, misplaced, and tortured by KONGRA-GEL then Kurds by the Government of Turkey.

The numbers I saw yesterday were ~35 dead soldiers and ~70 dead guerrillas.

"Guerrilla" now theres a term you don't hear too much these days.

halkar

mycroft your links are out dated. A lot as changed in Turkey since 2001. Many right kurds did not have in 2001 they have it now. As for your Belgium based Kurdish channel it is nothing more than a propaganda channel which is not possible to be watched by Kurds in Turkey, Iraq, Iran and Syria unless they have giant dish and hi-tech equipment.

I can PM you many links from newspapers if you can read Turkish so you can really see what you don't hear in western media and have an idea what KADEK and KONGRA-GEL are about. Most of their members are not even from Turkey and not supported by Kurds of Turkey. Even Ocalan denounced them and his brother seperated to form his own party. As I said there are always two sides. As my previous post there are 15 million Kurds, you should speak for them not only what you see on amnesty sites.

mycroft

Wow Halkar, never let the facts get in the way of a good argument.

mycroft your links are out dated. A lot as changed in Turkey since 2001.

Why yes it has, and here is amnesty's 2003 report

Reports of torture continued with an increasing use of torture methods that did not leave visible marks on the body. Detainees continued to be subjected to methods such as electric shocks, hanging by the arms, and falaka (beating on the soles of the feet). Other methods of torture and ill-treatment regularly reported included: severe beating; sexual abuse; being sprayed with cold pressurized water; being stripped naked while being questioned; threats of death and rape; other psychological torture; and restriction of sleep, food, drink and use of the toilet. According to reports, women and girls taken into custody were frequently sexually abused and threatened with rape. A number of women were raped.

Isn't it nice the US is sharing the torture techniques it's been refining.

Victims included those suspected of pro-Kurdish, Islamist or leftist activities, or those who applied for Kurdish language education.

What else we got;

Despite legislative reforms aimed at relaxing restrictions on publicly expressing Kurdish identity, observers failed to note significant improvements in practice. In August a change in the law was introduced which allowed language courses and broadcasting in “languages traditionally used and spoken by Turkish citizens in their daily lives”. However, one week after this legislation was passed, the head of the teachers’ trade union in Diyarbakır was removed from his teaching post by the Ministry of Education, reportedly for making a speech supporting first-language broadcasting. No courses in Kurdish were apparently approved by the authorities, and thousands of individuals were arrested for signing petitions asking for the right to be educated in Kurdish. Some detainees were allegedly tortured or ill-treated. Some were charged with aiding and abetting the armed opposition group Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK) or its successor KADEK. However, after the amendment to the law, some people were reportedly acquitted while charges against others remained pending.

So it seems Turkey is playing lip service to the concept of improved Kurdish rights.

Many right kurds did not have in 2001 they have it now. As for your Belgium based Kurdish channel it is nothing more than a propaganda channel which is not possible to be watched by Kurds in Turkey, Iraq, Iran and Syria unless they have giant dish and hi-tech equipment.

And according to my friend a human rights lawyer who visited the region in 2001 theres a disproportionate level of sattelite dishs in the region. So what if the station is mere propaganda, thats all the Turkish government is allowing them.

I can PM you many links from newspapers if you can read Turkish so you can really see what you don't hear in western media and have an idea what KADEK and KONGRA-GEL are about.

Why pm them?

bonkey

halkar wrote:

They are all Turks regardless if they are kurdish, turkish or other ethnichs.

Err...I assume you mean that they are all Turkish, regardless of whether their ethnicity is Kurd, Turk, or other in origin.

Thats all well and good, but the point that you're supposed to be answering is that the Kurd (ethnic) minority is getting the rough end of the stick from teh Turk (ethnic) majority.

To say that they're all of the same underlying nationality is nothing but misdirection - its akin to saying that the Kurds in Iraq were also Iraqi, and so we shouldn't say that Saddam comitted atrocities against the Kurdish minority, but rather against Iraqis.

Many people displaced were due terrorism in the area which was not even supported by kurds living in Turkey. Let me make it clear, we are not talking about few thousands here there are almost 15 million Kurds in Turkey. If they all supported PKK or KADEK and KONGRA-GEL country would be in civil war now. So speak for those 15 million not only what you see on amnesty sites.

You've lost me. I asked whether or not the people effected by the dam project were mostly Kurdish in ethnicity or not. I have absolutely no idea what the relevance of any of the above-quoted material is about. Maybe you could explain the relevance??

Maybe EU is willing to consider but how long do you think Turkey and people of Turkey going to let EU interfere with their internal affairs?

As long as Turkey wants membership in the EU, it will tolerate teh EU "interfering", in as much as saying that membership is dependant on certain things and that it is up to the nation of Turkey to choose between having membership or these EU-unaccepable rules can be counted as intereference.

I find it interesting, though, that after spending several posts complaining that the problem is that the EU didn't interfere for 50 years, you now take the stance that interference is wrong, and that it won't be tolerated for long. It says a lot for the solidity of your argument, that you have to alternate between blaming the EU for not interfering, and then for interfering, and now for implying that such interference won't be tolerated.

Look - if Turkey don't want to be in the EU, thats their lookout. No-one is forcing them. If those rules that you seem to believe are fine and dandy are more important than EU membership, then by all means let Turkey keep them and choose not to meet the membership criteria.

But lets be very clear...in such a situation, it is not the EU refusing membership. It is Turkey choosing not to join.

Its all do this do that and at the end of the day something else come up.

What something else? The new proposed legislation that was opposed from more-or-less the moment it was proposed? Exactly how much earlier do you think the EU should have opposed it? SHould htey have objected before it was proposed? Would that be fair - making demands on a country not to do something it hasn't even suggested doing? I can't see you accepting that. Or maybe the Eu should have waited...you know...let the whole thing get passed into law and then point out that its unacceptable??? WOuld that type of duplicity make you happier?

Look what happened in Cyprus, it was Greeks that turned down the UN and EU supported plan and yet they joined EU.

If you want to look at Cyprus, then at least do the others here the courtesy of not misrepresenting the situation.

You have to remember the fact that Turkey is a Muslim country and adultery is outlawed in many Muslim countries.

Have you even read what the objections from the EU are?

Also, the issue is not whether or not it is legal in other Muslim nations. The question is whether or not it is acceptable within the EU's framework, which it is not - a fact that you are conveniently ignoring.

They can change their legal system and they have done so for many things but the fact is many things EU wants from Turkey was not asked to other candidates.

Care to name one?

I think divorce is more of a human right than adultery,

Guess you won't figure it out then....

Lets see...care to comment on the equality of treatment for adulterous men and adulterous women? Or perhaps the equality of determining whether or not adultery occurred when applied to men and women?

Equality is a human right.

many laws passes but doesn't always get implemented. So what is proposed doesn't always mean what will be implemented. That is why I would call EU's attitude stupid.

Well, no offence mate, but if thats a typical piece of Turksih reasoning, its pretty clear that your mindset as to how legal systems should work is pretty-much entirely incompatible with just EU law.

Of course...all your insistence that its the EU who's wrong just leads me time and time again back to the same question...

if its the EU who's gonna benefit, and the EU who's wrong in all of this....what the hell does Turkey wanna join for????? It makes no logical sense.

All in all I would like to see Turkey joining EU but I doubt it will ever happen.

Well, not on your apparent terms, it won't. Your terms more equate to the EU joining a New Turkish Empire....because apparently wherever the two disagree, its the EU who are stupid and to blame and who should change....

jc

Victor

halkar wrote:

They are all Turks regardless if they are kurdish, turkish or other ethnichs.

Meanwhile, in other news, Gerry Adams the well known Brotsh politician ....