Israel, Democracy and the Middle East

wheels of ire

Having just seen the Israeli spokesman on Newsnight, wishing we should all unite with George Bush in imposing democracy on Iraq, in order that israel would no longer be the only self-proclaimed democracy in the Middle East, a curious thought occurred: what democratic votes or rights have the Palestinians in the Occupied Territories got?
I only ask.

mike65

Arabs within Israel proper have full voting rights while those in the occupied territories vote for the 88-member legislative council in Palestian Authority.

Someones bound to say I'm wrong!

Mike.

Hobbes

Israel isn't the only democracy in the Middle East. Although Israel isn't a proper democracy.

arcadegame2004

If Israel ultimately chooses to hold onto all the occupied-territories then it will be more an Aparteid state than a democracy, especially since demographists expect Arabs to outnumber Jews in the combined territory of Israel and the occupied-territories in a few decades.

PH01

mike65 wrote:

Arabs within Israel proper have full voting rights while those in the occupied territories vote for the 88-member legislative council in Palestian Authority.

Someones bound to say I'm wrong!

Mike.

Israeli Arabs have the right to vote but they don't have the same rights as Jewish Israelis. Now what they are, I'm not sure but i'll get back to ya

PH01

Jordan is a democracy. However, you would think that since there is a sizeable Palestinian population they would be well represented in parliament? Wrong. It appears that a Palestinian vote is only worth a fraction of a Jordanian vote.

In Kuwait, only Kuwaitis have the vote. Being born there doesn't gaurantee you a vote for what it's worth.

In Egypt, the only way you can get rid of a President is to shot him. And that probably goes for all the Arabic countries.

In Israel, ... oh, why bother?! I'm fed up with the whole thing! :rolleyes:

Manach

Re: Israeli Arabs - offhand I think they do not get to be conscripted into the army - only voulunteers allowed. I remember offhand some fuss about 2 months about an Israeli-Arab politican getting stripped of his citizen rights for making alleged treasonous comments.

Hobbes

I remember watching on TV news a few years ago where an Israeli Arab taxi driver was hurt trying to stop a suicide bomber from killing people.

He was being interviewed on TV when two Israeli military came in and dragged him from his hospital bed claiming he was the bomber. No questioning, just dragged.

He was released a few days later as innocent.

Equal rights?

therecklessone

arcadegame2004 wrote:

If Israel ultimately chooses to hold onto all the occupied-territories then it will be more an Aparteid state than a democracy, especially since demographists expect Arabs to outnumber Jews in the combined territory of Israel and the occupied-territories in a few decades.

You forgot to mention asylum seekers and immigration.

You must be slipping.

bonkey

therecklessone wrote:

You forgot to mention asylum seekers and immigration.

You must be slipping.

Could we stay on topic please, rather than indulging in a penchant for trying to get cheap digs in at someone else?

jc

therecklessone

Sorry.

sovtek

arcadegame2004 wrote:

If Israel ultimately chooses to hold onto all the occupied-territories then it will be more an Aparteid state than a democracy, especially since demographists expect Arabs to outnumber Jews in the combined territory of Israel and the occupied-territories in a few decades.

That's funny. I wonder by how much the Arabs outnumbered the Jews of European descent before 1947?
It's already an apartheid like system. Not surprising considering they were both buddies back in the day.

BattleBoar

Hobbes wrote:

I remember watching on TV news a few years ago where an Israeli Arab taxi driver was hurt trying to stop a suicide bomber from killing people.

He was being interviewed on TV when two Israeli military came in and dragged him from his hospital bed claiming he was the bomber. No questioning, just dragged.

He was released a few days later as innocent.

Equal rights?

Well then, I'd say that anecdotal evidence settles it. Clearly, all Israeli arabs try to save people from being bombed and all Israelis treat them like bombers anyway? :rolleyes:

FatherTed

FYI - Current population of Israel according to this source http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/newpop.html
is 6.78million.
81% Jewish, 19% Arab

Typedef

http://middleeastinfo.org/article63.html

Here is an interesting set of quotes.

Where you see votes as 10 : 1 or 9 : 1, it's taken as a given that the one dissenting vote is the United States.

For a country which claims to be democratic, the United States has voted against an awful lot of resolutions, which "confirm" the Palestinian people's right to self determination.

Until the Nixon administration, the United States had never employed its veto power at the UN Security Council. The first U. S veto was cast on March 17, 1970, over Southern Rhodesia. The second veto came two years later when Washington sought to protect Israel from a resolution condemning Israel for one of its attacks on its neighbors. Since then, the United has cast its veto a total of 38 times to shield Israel from Council draft resolutions that condemned, deplored, denounced, affirmed, endorsed, called upon and urged Israel to obey the world body.

1. 10 Sep. 1972 Condemned Israel's attacks against southern Lebanon and Syria. Vote: 13 to 1 with 1 abstention
2. 26 Jul. 1973 Affirmed the rights of the Palestinian people to self determination, statehood and equal protections. Vote: 13 to 1 with China absent
3. 08 Dec. 1975 Condemned Israel air strike and attacks in southern Lebanon and its murder of innocent civilians. Vote: 13 to 1 with 1 abstention
4. 26 Jan. 1976 Called for self-determination of Palestinian People. Vote: 9 to 1 with 3 abstentions
5. 25 Mar. 1976 Deplored Israel's alteration of the status of Jerusalem, which is recognized as an international city by most of world nations and the United Nations. Vote 14 to 1
6. 29 Jun. 1976 Affirmed the Inalienable rights of the Palestinian People. Vote 10 to 1 with 4 abstention
7. 30 Apr. 1980 Endorsed self-determination of Palestinian People. Vote 10 to 1 with 4 abstention
8. 20 Jan. 1982 Demands Israel's withdrawal from the Golan Heights. Vote 10 to 1 with 4 abstention
9. 01 Apr. 1982 Condemned Israel mistreatment of Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and Gaza strip and its refusal to abide by the Geneva Conventions Protocols of civilized nations. Vote: 14 to 1
10. 02 Apr. 1982 Condemned an Israeli soldier who shot 11 Moslem worshipers in the Haram al Sharif near Al Aqsa mosque in the Old City of Jerusalem. Vote: 14 to 1
11. 08 Jun. 1982 Urged sanctions against Israel if it did not withdraw from its invasion of Lebanon. Vote: 14 to 1
12. 26 Jun. 1982 Urged sanctions against Israel if it did not withdraw from its invasion of Beirut, Lebanon. Vote: 14 to 1
13. 06 Aug. 1982 Urged cut-off economic aid to Israel if it refused to withdraw from its occupation of Lebanon. Vote: 11 to 1 with 3 abstention
14. 02 Aug. 1983 Condemned continued Israeli settlements in occupied Palestinian territories of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, denouncing them as an obstacle to peace. Vote: 13 to 1 with 3 abstention
15. 06 Sep. 1984 Deplored Israel's brutal massacre of Arabs in Lebanon and urged its withdrawal. Vote: 14 to 1
16. 12 Mar. 1985 Condemned Israeli brutality in southern Lebanon and denounces Israeli "Iron Fist" policy of repression. Vote: 11 to 1 with 3 abstentions
17. 13 Sep. 1985 Denounced Israel's violations of human rights in the occupied territories. Vote 10 to 1 with 4 abstentions
18. 17 Jan. 1986 Strongly deplored Israel's violence in southern Lebanon.Vote: 11 to 1 with 3 abstentions
19. 30 Jan. 1986 Deplored Israel's activities in the occupied Arab East Jerusalem, which threaten the sanctity of Muslim holy sites. Vote: 13 to 1 with 1 abstention
20. 06 Feb. 1986 Condemned Israel's hijacking of a Libyan airplane on Feb. 4, Vote: 10 to 1 with 1 abstention
21. 18 Jan. 1988 Strongly deplored Israeli attacks against Lebanon and its measures and practices against the civilian population of Lebanon. Vote: 13 to 1 with 1 abstention
22. 01 Feb. 1988 Called on Israel to abandon its policies against Palestinian uprising that violate the rights of occupied Palestinians, to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention and formalize a leading role for the U.N. in future peace negotiations. Vote: 14 to 1
23. 15 Apr. 1988 Urged Israel to accept deported Palestinians, condemned Israel's shooting of civilians, called on Israel to uphold the Fourth Geneva Convention and called for a peace settlement under U.N. auspices. Vote: 14 to 1
24. 10 May 1988 Condemned Israel's May 2 incursion into Lebanon. Vote: 14 to 1
25. 14 Dec. 1988 Strongly deplored Israel's Dec. 9 commando raids on Lebanon. Vote: 14 to 1
26. 17 Feb 19.89 Strongly deplored Israel's repression of the Palestinian uprising and called on Israel to respect the human rights of the Palestinians. Vote: 14 to 1
27. 09 Jun. 1989 Strongly deplored Israel's violation of the human rights of the Palestinians. Vote: 14 to 1
28. 07 Nov. 1989 Demanded Israel return property confiscated from Palestinians during a tax protest and allow a fact finding mission to observe Israel's crackdown on the Palestinian uprising. Vote 14 to 1
29. 31 May 1990 Called for a fact-finding mission on abuses against Palestinians in Israeli occupied lands. Vote 14 to 1 . United States casts the lone veto to block a Security Council fact-finding mission to report on abuses of Palestinians in land Israel captured in war.
30. 04 Apr. 1992 Condemned Israel for the killing of four Palestinians and injuring 50 more, 10 of them seriously, in Rafah. Vote: 14 to 1.
31. 04 Dec. 1993 Urges Israel to allow the return of 101 Palestinian Deportees. Vote: 14 to 1.
32. 17 May 1995 Condemning Israel's intention of confiscating 134 Acres of land in East Jerusalem. Vote: 14 to 1. United States blocks a resolution that declared invalid Israel's expropriation of Arab-owned land in east Jerusalem.
33. 15 Apr. 1996 Condemns Israel's closure of the occupied territories. Vote: 14 to 1.
34. 25 Apr. 1996 Condemned Israel for bombing UN quarters in Qana, South Lebanon, and the continuous Israeli attacks.
Vote: 14 to 1.
35. 28 Sep. 1996 Condemned Israeli settlements in Ras Al Amud in Jerusalem. Vote: 14 to 1.
36. 07 Mar. 1997 Called for Israel to stop plans to build settlements in Jabal Abu Ghuneim (Har Homa) in Jerusalem.
Vote: 14 to 1. United States vetoes resolution calling on Israel to refrain from east Jerusalem settlement activity.
37. 21- 22 Mar. 97 Condemned Israeli settlement in Jabal Abu Ghuneim.
Vote: 14 to 1. United States blocks resolution demanding Israel's immediate cessation of construction at an east Jerusalem settlement.
38. March 27, 2001: United States vetoes resolution backing a U.N. observer force to protect Palestinian civilians.

Sadly, as much as I'd love to believe the propaganda about living in the free world, I think it's fairly obvious that the so called 'freedom' we enjoy under the benovalent rule of the United States, is a complete illusion, which hides away the grim reality of American foreign policy, as one which is essentially neo colonialist, where instead of a "white man's burdon", the colonist, bring "democracy" to the savages.

Hmm, if "democracy" means having the world's most powerful nation, consistently vote against global resolutions which affirm your rights to equality, then yes, Israel has that "democratic" trump card nailed down in the United States.

Clearly the UN, is completely useless, but, at least it makes people feel good about "global community", as opposed to the reality of "he with the most weapons rules".

BattleBoar

Typedef wrote:

http://middleeastinfo.org/article63.html

Here is an interesting set of quotes.

Where you see votes as 10 : 1 or 9 : 1, it's taken as a given that the one dissenting vote is the United States.

For a country which claims to be democratic, the United States has voted against an awful lot of resolutions, which "confirm" the Palestinian people's right to self determination.

[\QUOTE]

I'm not sure how being a dissenting voter precludes a country from being democratic. Indeed, I would have thought the opposite. Does a democracy prohibit voting members to vote the way they see fit if the way they see fit differs from the majority?

Hairy Homer

Manach wrote:

Re: Israeli Arabs - offhand I think they do not get to be conscripted into the army - only voulunteers allowed. I remember offhand some fuss about 2 months about an Israeli-Arab politican getting stripped of his citizen rights for making alleged treasonous comments.

From memory (it's a long time since I drove a tractor on a kibbutz so that the Israeli menfolk could be freed up to bulldoze villages in South Lebanon) the only Arabs who are allowed serve in the Israeli army are from the minority Druze community. There's only a tiny amount of them in Israel. Druze and Christians have a history of not getting on and as a sizable minority of Palestinians are in fact Christian, the old 'divide and rule' tactic works quite well here.

As regards citizenship rights: the Israeli Act of Return allows automatic entitlement to Israeli citizenship to any Jewish person who comes to Israel. Naturally there are then arguments about what constitutes a Jew but in general the practice holds. I believe the only recognised Jew who was refused Israeli citizenship was a notorious American gangster who tried to emigrate there to avoid the feds. (or was that just in Godfather II?)

However, Palestinians and their descendants who were forcibly evicted from their homes in the various wars are NOT entitled to return. So if your name is Rebeccah and you're from New York whither your grandfather emigrated from Poland a hundred years ago, you are entitled to automatic Israeli citizenship if you show up at the border, but if your name is Ahmed and you were kicked out of your home in Jerusalem in 1967, you've got to stay wherever you ended up.

wheels of ire

Thanks to all for contributions so far.
What are the borders of Israel for the purpose of these statistics? Do they include West Bank?.
If they don't, how are settlers in post-67 occupied bits counted?Are they part of the Israeli total ,or not?
I only ask.

sovtek

Hairy Homer wrote:

As regards citizenship rights: the Israeli Act of Return allows automatic entitlement to Israeli citizenship to any Jewish person who comes to Israel. Naturally there are then arguments about what constitutes a Jew but in general the practice holds.

He he yea I remember some black South Africans trying to claim citizenship from Israel. Little bit of uproar there.

However, Palestinians and their descendants who were forcibly evicted from their homes in the various wars are NOT entitled to return. So if your name is Rebeccah and you're from New York whither your grandfather emigrated from Poland a hundred years ago, you are entitled to automatic Israeli citizenship if you show up at the border.

Isn't it lovely. Grow up in a relatively secure country with a relatively good standard of living...and then decide..."hey I think I'll move over there and take the land from some very badly treated poor people".
They should all have their US citizenship revoked IMHO.

Johnny Versace

Typedef wrote:

Sadly, as much as I'd love to believe the propaganda about living in the free world, I think it's fairly obvious that the so called 'freedom' we enjoy under the benovalent rule of the United States, is a complete illusion, which hides away the grim reality of American foreign policy, as one which is essentially neo colonialist, where instead of a "white man's burdon", the colonist, bring "democracy" to the savages.

Hmm, if "democracy" means having the world's most powerful nation, consistently vote against global resolutions which affirm your rights to equality, then yes, Israel has that "democratic" trump card nailed down in the United States.

Clearly the UN, is completely useless, but, at least it makes people feel good about "global community", as opposed to the reality of "he with the most weapons rules".

I agree totally. What really infuriates me is the pretension that America and Israel are righteous and upholding some moral standard.

Are they blatantly lying or just insane?

I don't know which is worse.

...

I really understand why a lot of the world deeply despise these countries. Killing innocent people is wrong, but fighting back IMO is their only option.

bonkey

sovtek wrote:

They should all have their US citizenship revoked IMHO.

I thought it was illegal for Americans to hold dual citizenship in the first place? If they're Israeli, should they then not have their US citizenship revoked anyway, regardless of what other reasons there may be for it?

jc

sovtek

bonkey wrote:

I thought it was illegal for Americans to hold dual citizenship in the first place? If they're Israeli, should they then not have their US citizenship revoked anyway, regardless of what other reasons there may be for it?

jc

http://www.richw.org/dualcit/law.html#LossCit

"The primary effect of recent developments in the US regarding dual citizenship has been to add the requirement that loss of citizenship can only result when the person in question intended to give up his citizenship. At one time, the mere performance of the above (or certain other) acts was enough to cause loss of US citizenship; however, the Supreme Court overturned this concept in the Afroyim and Terrazas cases, and Congress amended the law in 1986 to require that loss of citizenship would result only when a potentially "expatriating" (citizenship-losing) action was performed voluntarily and "with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality". "

awake777

bonkey wrote:

I thought it was illegal for Americans to hold dual citizenship in the first place? If they're Israeli, should they then not have their US citizenship revoked anyway, regardless of what other reasons there may be for it?

jc

I don't think dual citizenship is the primary issue here, it's dual loyalty.
My Jewish friends and classmates don't give a damn about Israel, but that's because they've pretty much assimilated 100%. For the older generations of Jewish Americans as well as the "observant" or Orthodox variety, their loyalty is to Israel, to their Nation.

This becomes a problem in places like the United States, where avowed Zionists like Wolfowitz, Feith, Perle, etc. hold high-ranking status in the presidential cabinet, and yet.. they salute the flag of Israel before the flag of the United States.

These crafters of US foreign policy have caused the Arab states in the Middle East to hate us with a passion never felt before. All of this support for Israel.. and the world wonders why they felt it necessary to fly planes into the World Trade Center.

Oh, that's right.. it's because they hate "freedom" and "democracy".

Here's some good reading for any open-minded individual up to the challenge of accepting a "politically incorrect" belief.

Hairy Homer

awake777 wrote:

Here's some good reading for any open-minded individual up to the challenge of accepting a "politically incorrect" belief.

I didn't read all of that. I could see fairly early on where it was going.

There's nothing new in those sentiments. Some right wing nut Americans (eg the Ku Klux Klan) had it in for Jews because of their affinity to Israel, but also had it in for Catholics because of the position of the pope as a temporal ruler.

Being critical of Israel's excesses is one thing. Signing up with these knuckle draggers is quite another.

[/homily]

awake777

Hairy Homer wrote:

I didn't read all of that. I could see fairly early on where it was going.

Since you didn't bother reading the whole thing, here's an excerpt to illustrate the dangers of "dual loyalty", no matter to whom:

The most sensational expression of the dual loyalty issue in America in recent years was the 1987 case of Jonathan Pollard, an American-born Jew who worked in a sensitive position in the U.S. Navy. Pollard became a spy for the Israeli government and passed along more than 800 "top secret" documents to his "first loyalty," the Jewish State. For seventeen months he had been in daily contact with Israeli co-conspirators, two of whom were later given military promotions in Israel. The government prosecutor in the case, Joseph di Genova, has stated that Pollard's spying "was the largest physical compromise of United States classified information in the twentieth century." The Defense Secretary at the time of Pollard's arrest, Caspar Weinberger, wrote a 46-page document to the Federal Court stating that he "could not conceive of greater harm to national security" than Pollard's spying.

awake777

All else aside, the titile of this thread "Israel, Democracy and the Middle East" reminds me of a quote I stumbled across some time ago:

"Every time anyone says that Israel is our only ally in the Middle East I can't help but think that before Israel we had no enemies in the Middle East." - John Sheehan, S. J. (Jesuit priest)

sovtek

awake777 wrote:

I don't think dual citizenship is the primary issue here, it's dual loyalty.
My Jewish friends and classmates don't give a damn about Israel, but that's because they've pretty much assimilated 100%. For the older generations of Jewish Americans as well as the "observant" or Orthodox variety, their loyalty is to Israel, to their Nation.

This becomes a problem in places like the United States, where avowed Zionists like Wolfowitz, Feith, Perle, etc. hold high-ranking status in the presidential cabinet, and yet.. they salute the flag of Israel before the flag of the United States.

These crafters of US foreign policy have caused the Arab states in the Middle East to hate us with a passion never felt before. All of this support for Israel.. and the world wonders why they felt it necessary to fly planes into the World Trade Center.

Oh, that's right.. it's because they hate "freedom" and "democracy".

Here's some good reading for any open-minded individual up to the challenge of accepting a "politically incorrect" belief.

My point was that American's moving into the illegal settlements are committing a crime IMO and either should be charged as such or have their citizenship revoked.

"Love your race" Brother! :rolleyes:

awake777

sovtek wrote:

My point was that American's moving into the illegal settlements are committing a crime IMO and either should be charged as such or have their citizenship revoked.

Good point, I agree fully.

"Love your race" Brother! :rolleyes:

I do! And I hope that you love yours, as well.

sovtek

awake777 wrote:

Good point, I agree fully.




I do! And I hope that you love yours, as well.

I don't usually think about myself in racial terms...but when someone starts talking about "love your race" it's usually followed with "that other race is threatening our blah blah blah" and that's when I get a blank look on my face because I'm thinking about how to get the hell out of the room.
To put it somewhat on topic....Israel IMO is a danger to America because of it's treatment of the Palestinians. I would also agree that there are strong Jewish lobbies that help keep that situation in force. Hell the Anti_Defamation League doesn't condemn some neo-Nazi groups because they express support for Israel. Does that mean I'm going support another McCarthy like witch-hunt for "Jewish subversives" in the military and other such institutions for their "dual loyalty"....hell no.

chris_d_rat

Well getting back to the original question is Israel a real democracy? No of course it isnt. How can it be when it isnt even a legitimate state? All Israel really is, is a puppet nation backed by Washington and London. The area they call Israel belongs to the native Palestinian people, not to the Jews who claim it. I think that the only way to solve the trouble in Palestine is to dissolve the state of Israel and recreate the state of Palestine, which gives Jews equal rights but not the right to murder and maim or create nuclear weapons.

Hobbes

bonkey wrote:

I thought it was illegal for Americans to hold dual citizenship in the first place?

Don't think so. My cousin has American and Irish nationality. Or maybe its based on certain countries?