Israel, Democracy and the Middle East

butterKnife

I am new to the board and will need some time to assimilate the nuances etc to be found here. Politics is to me what footie is to many, “religion and sport”.

Israel is a topic that explodes the boundaries of the spectrum of people’s emotions. I have noticed that in discussing Democracy and Israel an interesting point was brought up i.e. Citizenship for Arabs and Jews inside and outside the ‘elastic’ boundaries of “The Jewish Nation”. A distinction needs to be made about citizenship and nationality as seen through the Jewish doctrine that imposes it’s notion of democracy on a downtrodden people who are periodically restricted from movement by official mandate and the IDF snipers who make no distinction between children and militants.
In essence Citizenship may be held by both Arabs and Jews while Nationality, which has greater rights can only be held by Jews.

A simple question that I would like to ask is: How can you expect a true settlement of the Israel-Palestinian question to contain the proviso that the control of water will remain in the hands of the Israelis?

A further thought to those inclined to ponder: The symbolism of Olive grove destruction in building barriers to a lasting settlement (sic).

awake777

First off I'd like to apologize for making some comments that caused another thread in this forum to be closed.

No doubt the comment I am about to make will enrage some, enlighten others, and cause another torrent of abuse and anonymous insults via negative rep.

But, here's some food for though, for those people that insinuated I was a "nazi"...

Nazi = National Socialist.

Israel is a strongly socialist country, with intense national pride. Israel can therefore be best described as a National Socialist state.

So, the only "Nazis" roaming the Earth today are Israelis

Not really a "democracy" at all..

GuanYin

awake777 wrote:

First off I'd like to apologize for making some comments that caused another thread in this forum to be closed.

No doubt the comment I am about to make will enrage some, enlighten others, and cause another torrent of abuse and anonymous insults via negative rep.

But, here's some food for though, for those people that insinuated I was a "nazi"...

Nazi = National Socialist.

Israel is a strongly socialist country, with intense national pride. Israel can therefore be best described as a National Socialist state.

So, the only "Nazis" roaming the Earth today are Israelis

Not really a "democracy" at all..

It was the actions of others that got the thread closed.

I'm not sure your post is on topic, but I think you seem to be missing the concept of "context" in making that claim.

Its akin to saying that Satan -adversary so anyone who proclaims themselves and adversary is Satanic.

C'mon awake, be sensible

swiss

The term 'Nazi' is inextricably linked with the Nazi's in Germany and as such engenders a particular ethos of totalitarian right wing rule. Deconstructing the term into 'Nationalist Socialist' and applying it blankly to a particular movement is IMO a fallacy because many parties who would loosely fall into this mould would not necessarily follow the precepts and manifesto of the Nazi's.

I do however find a rather macabre irony in Israel's dogged persecution complex due to their treatment under the Nazi regime juxtaposed with their treatment of their Palestinian and Arab neighbours.

Oh and I invoke Goodwins law.

bonkey

awake777 wrote:

Israel is a strongly socialist country, with intense national pride. Israel can therefore be best described as a National Socialist state.

So, the only "Nazis" roaming the Earth today are Israelis

Not really a "democracy" at all..

Wow. With logic like that....look what I can do.

I am a human.
Ergo, I am the only human roaming the earth today.
Which also means I'm not reallly male.

Your "only", and "not really" conclusions have about the same strength of logic behind them. If you're gonna try riling people up, could you at least try and do it with a well-formed argument?

jc

wheels of ire

butterKnife wrote:

I am new to the board and will need some time to assimilate the nuances etc to be found here. Politics is to me what footie is to many, “religion and sport”.

Israel is a topic that explodes the boundaries of the spectrum of people’s emotions. I have noticed that in discussing Democracy and Israel an interesting point was brought up i.e. Citizenship for Arabs and Jews inside and outside the ‘elastic’ boundaries of “The Jewish Nation”. A distinction needs to be made about citizenship and nationality as seen through the Jewish doctrine that imposes it’s notion of democracy on a downtrodden people who are periodically restricted from movement by official mandate and the IDF snipers who make no distinction between children and militants.
In essence Citizenship may be held by both Arabs and Jews while Nationality, which has greater rights can only be held by Jews.

A simple question that I would like to ask is: How can you expect a true settlement of the Israel-Palestinian question to contain the proviso that the control of water will remain in the hands of the Israelis?

A further thought to those inclined to ponder: The symbolism of Olive grove destruction in building barriers to a lasting settlement (sic).

Wheels would like to welcome ButterKnife, who asks some interestng questions.
And also raises the important question of the use of language.For me, nationality is more an abstract concept , and citizenship is something defined by the constitition. I mean, when I lived here or in London, I was still Irish. Same in Germany and Italy, where I spent quite a few years.It was the same for my RIC grandfather, except that he was born British and died an Irish citizen.
As far as I can see, Israel is almost theocratic in how it looks at who is entitled to use the right of return, which seems to be allowed to anyone who can prove they are Jewish.Now we Irish can hardly start being sniffy, considering how if your Granny was Irish (or you had enough money) you could get get an Irish Passport
Where you were born has nothing to do with it.
I meant to start where I started this thread. I just saw an Israeli spokesman on Channel 4 again.
As his IDF lobbed a tank shell at a bunch of teenagers, with casual impunity, he was using Bushspeak, and the Palestinians who died seem to all be 'terrorists'.

wheels of ire

butterKnife wrote:

I am new to the board and will need some time to assimilate the nuances etc to be found here. Politics is to me what footie is to many, “religion and sport”.

Israel is a topic that explodes the boundaries of the spectrum of people’s emotions. I have noticed that in discussing Democracy and Israel an interesting point was brought up i.e. Citizenship for Arabs and Jews inside and outside the ‘elastic’ boundaries of “The Jewish Nation”. A distinction needs to be made about citizenship and nationality as seen through the Jewish doctrine that imposes it’s notion of democracy on a downtrodden people who are periodically restricted from movement by official mandate and the IDF snipers who make no distinction between children and militants.
In essence Citizenship may be held by both Arabs and Jews while Nationality, which has greater rights can only be held by Jews.

A simple question that I would like to ask is: How can you expect a true settlement of the Israel-Palestinian question to contain the proviso that the control of water will remain in the hands of the Israelis?

A further thought to those inclined to ponder: The symbolism of Olive grove destruction in building barriers to a lasting settlement (sic).

Wheels would like to welcome ButterKnife, who asks some interestng questions.
And also raises the important question of the use of language.For me, nationality is more an abstract concept , and citizenship is something defined by the constitition. I mean, when I lived here or in London, I was still Irish. Same in Germany and Italy, where I spent quite a few years.It was the same for my RIC grandfather, except that he was born British and died an Irish citizen.
As far as I can see, Israel is almost theocratic in how it looks at who is entitled to use the right of return, which seems to be allowed to anyone who can prove they are Jewish.Now we Irish can hardly start being sniffy, considering how if your Granny was Irish (or you had enough money) you could get get an Irish Passport
Where you were born has nothing to do with it.
I meant to start where I started this thread. I just saw an Israeli spokesman on Channel 4 again.
As his IDF lobbed a tank shell at a bunch of teenagers, with casual impunity, he was using Bushspeak, and the Palestinians who died seem to all be 'terrorists'.
As were Mandela, Kenyatta,Nkrumah and Michael Collins.And the French Resistance. So maybe a definition of terrorist might be 'anyone using force against those who,by virtue of superior power,have so decided.'
And I'd like to hear more from knowledgable people about who controls aquifers.
And every time I see an olive grove being bulldozed my heart weeps.
Sorry about length

wheels of ire

Sorry for accidental posting of half-written post.I'm a bit clumsy.

bonkey

wheels of ire wrote:

As his IDF lobbed a tank shell at a bunch of teenagers, with casual impunity, he was using Bushspeak, and the Palestinians who died seem to all be 'terrorists'.
As were Mandela, Kenyatta,Nkrumah and Michael Collins.And the French Resistance. So maybe a definition of terrorist might be 'anyone using force against those who,by virtue of superior power,have so decided.'
And I'd like to hear more from knowledgable people about who controls aquifers.

I think the first two paragraphs here serve as a model for an accurate answer to the third...

jc

wheels of ire

Further to my previous post about a useful,agreed definition of 'Terrorism', I just saw pictures of the results of the precision bombing in Iraq.
All the dead were killed by air-strikes, and 'terrorists.'
I must say that the pics I saw seemed to show a couple of very young 'terrs'.
Wow, that's what I call early recruitment!

Victor

bonkey wrote:

I thought it was illegal for Americans to hold dual citizenship in the first place?

No, only people holding official positions over a certain level, e.g. army officers, but not NCOs. There have been notable squabbles with regard to dual Irish-American or Israeli-American citizenships, when people get promoted to senior level.

sovtek wrote:

He he yea I remember some black South Africans trying to claim citizenship from Israel. Little bit of uproar there.

Perhaps Ethiopians?

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/is.html

Ethnic groups: Jewish 80.1% (Europe/America-born 32.1%, Israel-born 20.8%, Africa-born 14.6%, Asia-born 12.6%), non-Jewish 19.9% (mostly Arab) (1996 est.)

talos

basic facts - http://www.science.co.il/Arab-Israeli-conflict.asp

from article:

Anonymous quote:
If the Arabs (Moslems) put down their weapons today there would be no more violence. If the Israelis put down their weapons today there would be no more Israel.
Think about it...

bonkey

I find it funny that you say this article is the basic facts and then link to an opinion within it....

jc

talos

bonkey wrote:

I find it funny that you say this article is the basic facts and then link to an opinion within it....

jc

sorry, I should write basic facts as Israel see it.