Honesty poll

luckat

I'm just curious. A friend left his expensive digital camera on the bus and was in no doubt whatsoever that he'd get it back. He's in Japan.

If you found a camera, would you had it up? What about a €20 note? A €50 note? An address book? Would you walk to the Garda station to hand it in? Would you expect a reward? Shoud you?

frodi

If I couldn't identify the owner myself directly then I'd bring it to a Garda stn.
Reward: a nice "thank you" would do.

therecklessone

luckat wrote:

I'm just curious. A friend left his expensive digital camera on the bus and was in no doubt whatsoever that he'd get it back. He's in Japan.

If you found a camera, would you had it up? What about a €20 note? A €50 note? An address book? Would you walk to the Garda station to hand it in? Would you expect a reward? Shoud you?

Anything valuable I'd hand in. Phone, camera, mp3 player, anything like that.

In fact, when I worked for Aer Rianta in Dublin I was always finding stuff. I always handed it in (got to claim most of it after 3 months anyway )

Cash-wise, anything under €50 I'd either pocket or throw in a charity collection box, unless I had an idea who'd lost it (if I found it on a bus on the ground near where an old biddy had been sitting), or I found it somewhere where it would be easy enough to identify the owner (like in work). Above €50 I'd hand it in to the relevant body.

doh.ie

When I lived in the UK, I found someone's wages in an soggy envelope on a miserable rainy morning - hard to believe some still pay in cash!. There was over €400/£300 in it, and once I found out who the owner was, I had no qualms finding her (worked for a local pub) and giving it back.

Reward, same as Frodi - a lovely thank you (and a great offer of as much free drink as I wanted whenever I was in that area again.)

monkeyfudge

I've handed things into the bus driver on several occasions that I've found on the bus... from phones to wallets.

Not sure if the bus driver hands the things on though... ha

I remember when I was younger I had just bought a new CD and had the thing stuffed in my jacket pocket, when I got on my bus home I sat next to someone I went to school with and hadn't spoken to in a while. I got up and left the bus at my stop, not knowing that the CD had fallen out of my pocket.

And from what the guy I knew from shcool told me afterwards, someone else sat down in the same seat after I got off. And then when she got up she to leave the bus, the guy I knew saw the CD on the seat and asked if it was hers and she said 'yes' and took it. Now that's really cheeky... it's one thing to take something that you found lying on the bus, but another to lie in order to get it.

Sleipnir

I wouldn't hand in cash that was 'loose', i.e. if it's not in a wallet.
If you brought cash into a police station it would most likely end up
in a copper's pocket.
Anything like an iPod I would definately hand in.

So I couldn't vote in the poll.

monkeyfudge

Sleipnir wrote:

I wouldn't hand in cash that was 'loose', i.e. if it's not in a wallet.
If you brought cash into a police station it would most likely end up
in a copper's pocket.
Anything like an iPod I would definately hand in.

So I couldn't vote in the poll.

Same here. I wouldn't hand cash in. I found €60 just before christmas last year. I put €40 in the charity box and bought a round of drinks for my friends with the rest.

seamus

I'd hand it back depending on the effort it would cost me -v- karma. If I found a wallet with nothing in it but a few pieces of paper, and a crap ID card, I'd throw it in the bin. If it has Credit/ATM/VHI cards in it, I'd make an attempt to get it back to its owner. I have returned phones to their owner (even posted one to the north, out of my own pocket), and would do the same for anything else valuable I found.

Money under €50 would go in my pocket, unless it was in a wallet with other things, as Sleipnir said.
Afaik, if you find money, you're obliged to make a reasonable effort to reunite it with its owner (ads on signposts or something) if the owner doesn't reclaim in a certain amount of time (think its a year) you're legally allowed to keep it.

woosaysdan

yeah im the same as most people if there was a 20 of a 50 euro note no the ground and no one around i'd put it in the back pocket, butif it was something expensive likean i-pod, camera or the wallet then id deffinately hand it into the garda station!!!

doh.ie

Think the poll is slightly off - I probably wouldn't hand in a loose €10 note if I found it simple because you'd never be able to reliably track down the owner, and secondly it's just not a lot of money, really.

An iPod is very different, though. It'd be much more possible to track the owner, or have the owner prove their ownership through a serial number or wot-not.

So shouldn't the poll really be iPod vs €100, or more?

RuggieBear

I'd be the same....small sums of money with no obvious owner, i'd keep but any valubles would be handed in.

Actually, the other day i found a battered old paperback on a bench in college. There was a postcard with an address in it, being used as a page marker. i sent the book to the address (somewhere in Limerick). With just an anom. note saying found this is Trinity....they were only half way thru and it was a classic

doh.ie

RuggieBear wrote:

I'd be the same....small sums of money with no obvious owner, i'd keep but any valubles would be handed in.

Actually, the other day i found a battered old paperback on a bench in college. There was a postcard with an address in it, being used as a page marker. i sent the book to the address (somewhere in Limerick). With just an anom. note saying found this is Trinity....they were only half way thru and it was a classic

If there wasn't an address in it, I'd have thought it was that project they're running in Britain, a sort of Pay It Forward, with books. As far as I recall, you buy a book (or choose one you like a lot), read it, and leave it safely in some public space with the project rules stapled inside (basically read it, enjoy it, buy another, pass it on etc.). Quite clever, but I don't know how widely it took off.

fletch

I wouldn't hand in stuff to the gardai cause they're so corrupt they'd prob jus keep it for themselves. If I could track the owner and I was 100% sure it was theirs, then yeh I'd give it back. Found a few phones over the years & always got them back to their rightful owners. Just hoping that someone will do the same for me one day if I lose anything.

robbie1876

Years ago I lost my wallet on a bus, and the bus driver returned it to me in a very unusual way. I lived in a housing estate at the time, and when there was someone at the door, I opened the door to the bus driver and behind him on the street was his double decker bus.....WITH PASSENGERS ON BOARD!!!! It was very surreal, they were all glaring at me like it was my fault the bus driver decided to veer off the route to get my wallet back to me, making them all late.

The bus then had to reverse all the way up the street cos it was a dead end and he couldn't turn around. There was over a grand in cash in my wallet at the time, every penny of it still there, so I was unbelievably relieved to get it back, although somehow I knew I would.

Afterwards I was thinking about it, I'm sure some of the passengers would have reported the driver for going off the route and making them all late. Fair play to the driver for risking his own job to get me back my wallet, which he knew from the cash in it was important to me. I traced the driver to the Ringsend garage and sent him a Christmas hamper, cost me €150 but well worth it I tell you. He dropped in a thank you card afterwards, but I don't know if he had the bus with him the second time or not.

Robbie

luckat

Doh, that's why I put the small sum in; I'm curious as to the level at which honesty kicks in.

As for "the Gardai are crooked", hmmm. They're crooked, so that's an excuse for us to be? Does that work, morally, you think?

(By the same token; I've several times handed stuff up to Garda stations and later got notes of thanks from their owners when they claimed them - in one case, a pensioner.)

buddy

If it was something small I'd give it back.

Due to several credit/debit errors in Tommy's Wonderland I ended up with nearly €2000 credit on my card.

I waited a few months for them to contact me and when they didn't I went back in and explained what happened. They charged my card and thanked me profusely for my honesty!!

Hagar

robbie1876 wrote:

I opened the door to the bus driver and behind him on the street was his double decker bus.....WITH PASSENGERS ON BOARD!!!!

Brilliant.

As a mark of respect I'm not going to take the p1ss out of Dublin Bus on the Boards for the rest of the day. But tomorrow....


BTW Did anyone lose a bundle of 20 Euro notes rolled up in a red rubber band?
PM me. I think I found your rubber band

Raskolnikov

Loose money I'd generally keep, if it was anything over €50 I'd probably hand it into the police or make an effort to find the owner. I've lost my bus pass, ATM cards, etc on the bus once, they gave me a call and I was able to collect. Despite what they say about the bus service, people there are pretty honest.

On the other hand, while in France last week, a wallet which contained my passport, money, ATM card, etc, slipped out of my pocket while I was buying a baguette at a stall. Five minutes later, I realised it was missing and knew that I must have dropped it while at the stall. Rushed back to see a young woman pick it up and pocket it. She then refused to acknowledge that she even found the wallet! Luckily, a policeman was walking by and with my best French I explained the situation. She 'found' my wallet and that was the end of that.

BEAT

I would turn in material things found. If I found money though..and no one was around it is thereofre mine. If there is soeone close by I will ask them if they dropped something and hand it over as I have done in the past.

I have gone through an entire parking lot looking for someone who left an envelope in my office with his wages in it. Found him in his car getting ready to leave...He didnt seem to thrilled to get it back but I felt better.

Funnily enough, I only seem to find money on the ground when I am in dire need. A bit strange isnt it

Verdammt

robbie1876 wrote:

Years ago I lost my wallet on a bus, and the bus driver returned it to me in a very unusual way. I lived in a housing estate at the time, and when there was someone at the door, I opened the door to the bus driver and behind him on the street was his double decker bus.....WITH PASSENGERS ON BOARD!!!! It was very surreal, they were all glaring at me like it was my fault the bus driver decided to veer off the route to get my wallet back to me, making them all late.

The bus then had to reverse all the way up the street cos it was a dead end and he couldn't turn around. There was over a grand in cash in my wallet at the time, every penny of it still there, so I was unbelievably relieved to get it back, although somehow I knew I would.

Afterwards I was thinking about it, I'm sure some of the passengers would have reported the driver for going off the route and making them all late. Fair play to the driver for risking his own job to get me back my wallet, which he knew from the cash in it was important to me. I traced the driver to the Ringsend garage and sent him a Christmas hamper, cost me €150 but well worth it I tell you. He dropped in a thank you card afterwards, but I don't know if he had the bus with him the second time or not.

Robbie

It's nice to see that there are people out there like that. Heart warming story.

therecklessone

BEAT wrote:

Funnily enough, I only seem to find money on the ground when I am in dire need. A bit strange isnt it

I've told you before, its called a wallet, and its not finding, its stealing...

flogen

If it was a small amount of money like a tenner, and I didnt know who owned it (so it wasnt in a wallet, or I didnt see who dropped it), then I wouldnt hand it in. I mean, if you give a €10 note into the gardai, or a bus driver if it were on a bus, what are they going to do with it? Wait until someone rings saying they lost a tenner, so they can ask them what it looked like? tbh if I lost a tenner, I'd be pissed, but I wouldnt go mad looking for it, even though I am poor!

something like an ipod, I'd be so tempted to keep, but I wouldnt, I'd always think "how would you feel if it was you".
A friend of mine found an envelope with a couple of grand in it once in a shopping centre. He brought it to the security, and had it announced, the guard told him he'd mind it until the owner came for it, but he said no. Turned out it was belonged to a group of foreign girls and it was their spending money! I cant blame him for not handing it over to the security, whatever about the police, theres a much higher chance of a shop security guard (and no offence to any here) being a bit dodgy. My experience with them while working has been that theyre nice guys, most do their job (and its not an easy one), but theyre a pack of chancers.

flogen

therecklessone

robbie1876 wrote:

Years ago I lost my wallet on a bus, and the bus driver returned it to me in a very unusual way. I lived in a housing estate at the time, and when there was someone at the door, I opened the door to the bus driver and behind him on the street was his double decker bus.....WITH PASSENGERS ON BOARD!!!! It was very surreal, they were all glaring at me like it was my fault the bus driver decided to veer off the route to get my wallet back to me, making them all late.

The bus then had to reverse all the way up the street cos it was a dead end and he couldn't turn around. There was over a grand in cash in my wallet at the time, every penny of it still there, so I was unbelievably relieved to get it back, although somehow I knew I would.

Afterwards I was thinking about it, I'm sure some of the passengers would have reported the driver for going off the route and making them all late. Fair play to the driver for risking his own job to get me back my wallet, which he knew from the cash in it was important to me. I traced the driver to the Ringsend garage and sent him a Christmas hamper, cost me €150 but well worth it I tell you. He dropped in a thank you card afterwards, but I don't know if he had the bus with him the second time or not.

Robbie

Post of the year!

Our local driver (we used to ahve two/three regulars on our route) was reknowned for dropping people to their doors, and once reversed up our cul de sac to drop my mum back at our house cos she'd forgot something.

Now that was service.

leeroybrown

If I found €10/€20/€50 in the street and there wasn't obvious whose it was I'd keep it. If I saw someone drop money, I'd pick it up and give it back to them. Likewise if I found a wallet/purse that obviously belonged to someone then I'd return it, etiher myself or via the Gardaí.

Verdammt

I found a handbag with a couple of thousand pounds in 20's in it when I was about 12 , to this day I'm sorry I handed it up. Should of buried it and went back for it a couple of years later.

SantaHoe

luckat wrote:

As for "the Gardai are crooked", hmmm. They're crooked, so that's an excuse for us to be? Does that work, morally, you think?

Works for me.
A friend of mine found a big roll of 50's in a petrol station forecourt, handed it in to the people who worked there... came back a few days later asking if anyone had claimed it, and they hadn't the slightest idea what he was talking about... seems like the money never even made it to the lost and found.
Sure, he can have a clear consience knowing he did the right thing and handed it in, but a lot of the time handing things in like this is just pure futile... so you have to ask yourself if handing something like this in is going to do any good before you start worrying about morality.

I'd definitely return something that I could, like a wallet where there are cards that identify the person or a laptop that I could boot up and look for an address... but I'd do it myself, I wouldn't trust some shopkeeper to bother his arse doing it... and the Gardai have better things to be doing like policing sporting events and driving government ministers.

Hagar wrote:

BTW Did anyone lose a bundle of 20 Euro notes rolled up in a red rubber band?
PM me. I think I found your rubber band

LOL
So true.

Flukey

As is the general consensus, some items you would hand in especially if the owner could be identified. You could even directly contact them. Cash is a bit different. It is nearly impossible to return, but sometimes you can. I was queueing for an ATM one time and the girl in front of me walked off leaving the cash still in the slot waiting to be taken. I spotted it and went after her and gave it to her. Opportunities to return it like that don't often arise. If you don't see the person losing it and don't want to hand it in because you think it will go into somebody's pocket you could always give it to a charity the next time you come across someone collecting for one.

ando

luckat wrote:

If you found a camera, would you had it up? What about a €20 note? A €50 note?

no no and no

robbie1876

ando wrote:

no no and no

Well that's pretty honest. This thread is full of happy stories, so fair play to you. Have a green pill under your name.

ArthurDent

I'd try to return it to owner - not sure if it was a small amount like a tenner if I'd give it to the guards - more likely put it in a chairty box somewhere.
Once when I was a student a taxi driver drove back to my house with my wallet containing my last £20 and a women found my wallet in the supermarket trolley once and rang me so i know how greatful people are to have things returned - it does restore your faith in the inherent goodness of strangers.

Smellyirishman

Ye i`m in the same boat as everyone, would hand it to the person if I saw them drop it or knew it was thiers but otherwise its all mine!

But in regards to actual "belongings" I would definitly try to find an owner, although an iPod would be very hard to resist. Recently my GFs cousin found a phone, basically it was offered to everyone in the family but I told them to use one of their sims to open the phone and then check for numbers that were saved to the phone. Anyway eventually they did this and found the girls mam`s number and blah blah.

I was surprised that the parents didnt say much to my GF or her cuz as they were just doing nothing about it! I mean my phone is a pile of crap(33 something, dont ask me what model), turns off when I answer it, turns off for no reason, doesnt turn on, But I still have a load of numbers etc.. that I cant get again, and IF it went missing I would like to have it returned to me ( and im sure nobody would actually want it ).

Oh and this one time a woman`s baby dropped its soother and I picked it up and gave it to her, I mean if thats not samaritanism at its best I dunno what is

luckat

Interesting that when people *talk* about what they'd do, they mostly say "I'd give it back", but when they *vote*, they tend to vote "No"!

Yeah, when I was really skint I was always finding money on the road, and I never gave it back. But now that I'm not so skint I hand it in.

*However*, this is the way I do it: I go into the copshop and say "I've found €XX on X Street. I'm handing it up, and I'll need a receipt." Then if the copper doesn't seem enthusiastic, I murmur something about perhaps being able to talk to the OC of the station...?

My favourite experience like this was finding a fat wallet outside a house as I was cycling to a party. I picked it up, looked around and thought, hmm, it'd be stupid to shout "Anyone own this?"

So I got back on my bike and cycled on. When I got to the party I found a lot of senior bank cards and £400 or so. I looked the name up in the phone book and found someone of that name at the street where I'd found it. So I phoned him and gave him my name and address, said I was at a party but would only be there an hour or so and would drop it back.

1am I shycled up to hish houshe and knocked on the doorsh. Him and his wife *sprang* to answer it and I exshplained that I'd been held up a bit and handed him hish wallet.

Next day when I got back from work I found a gift - or at least part of one. The stems of a bouquet of flowers were sticking out of my letterbox, with a thank-you card from yer man. I never had the heart to go down and say thanks and tell him!

Waltons

I'd have to agree. As regards small sums, I wouldn't bother handing over to the Gardai if I found it on the street, as it would probably just end up in their pocket. As suggested, charity's the best option for this really. I'd hand money over though if I found it in a shop or something. Probably the same situation, but the person who lost it may go up to the information desk hopefully.
I was in the opposite situation a few weeks back. My girlfriend left her purse in the bathroom in the UGC cinema in town. We got the purse back..... With no cash OR cards left in it. Nothing except a bloody receipt. It annoys me that someone would take the money and cards out of a purse, when there ARE names on the cards, and the purse is going to be missed eventually. Pissed me off, cause whenever she finds something she hands it in...

mike65

Years ago I was parked on the Quay in Waterford on the riverside (double yellows!) I nipped across the road to the photo shop and when I got back I spotted two crisp £20s. I looked around and I was the only person in sight (early Saturday morning) I picked them up, pondered for a moment, looked around again just to be sure, and er pocketed them!

On the other hand my sister found a wallet one day and went to the guys addy and she got a big thankyou and I'm sure felt good for the rest of the day!

Mike.

Zukustious

I'd keep the tenner, I'd hand in the ipod. I've lost my fair share of tenners and fivers and wouldn't really feel the need to go to the gardaí on the off chance someone handed it in. If it was something like 100 euro I'd bring it to the station. Maybe anything above 50.

luckat

*Why* should honesty demand that the valuable item be handed up, but not the smaller item or amount?

What if it was the tenner belonging to a refugee family who get €15 a week for their whole spending money? What if it was the fare for a cancer patient to get to hospital?

And just generally, why would a small amount be "yours", and a larger amount or more valuable item, but "still its owner's"?

I'm just curious here; just trying to tease out some moral questions. Don't necessarily have the answers myself.

Waltons

^^
Personally, tbh, I wouldn't think that it was someone's spending money for the week or anything like that, but that's probably just the way I think. If I found €15 on the street though, I'd be afraid that someone in the office would just take it if I handed it over to the Gardai I guess, or that the person wouldn't come looking for it.
Interesting questions though..

luckat

Soo... is there a cut-off line for honesty? At what value do you start to be a thief, and at what value is it not theft?

And do you have the right to keep something based on the assumption that someone responsible for keeping it for its owner would instead steal it if you put it into their care?

ando

Verdammt wrote:

I found a handbag with a couple of thousand pounds in 20's in it when I was about 12 , to this day I'm sorry I handed it up

I was wondering where my brother (garda) got that 30" TV monitor from a few years back

Waltons

I wouldn't really call it theft unless it was, say, a wallet with identification in it. It's more dishonesty than being a downright criminal. That said, I do find something wrong about keeping a wallet with no identification, but stuffed full of bills, that someone will obviously be looking for. It's probably not illegal, per se, but it's a horrible thing to do.

And I wouldn't say you have the right to keep something you find on the street at all, just on the basis that it isn't yours. I said I wouldn't hand it in to the police, because I wouldn't think that people would go looking for a small amount, but I would give it to charity.

Kalina

I recently found a wallet in the bar I work in, it had about €250 in it and loads of bank cards, ID etc. We found the owner easily enough as he was a regular and it never even crossed my mind to keep the money. But if I found money where there was no way of identifying the owner I'd definitely keep it. Not very honest maybe!

therecklessone

luckat wrote:

*Why* should honesty demand that the valuable item be handed up, but not the smaller item or amount?

What if it was the tenner belonging to a refugee family who get €15 a week for their whole spending money? What if it was the fare for a cancer patient to get to hospital?

Well, personally, my thinking is that most people won't bother looking for a smallish amount of money, even if it is their last €10. Say you dropped a tenner in Dublin some day, and didn't notice it missing until you got home. Where do you start looking? Phone a load of Garda stations? Check all the shops you were in? Phone Dublin Bus? If I lost €10/20 I'd try to retrace my steps for the last few minutes, but after that I'd usually give up.

Anything over €50 I'd consider sizeable enough to make at least some effort to get back to an owner. I'd head to a local cop shop, hand it in and demand a receipt. As far as I know, the legal position is that after 3 months and a day its yours if it hasn't been claimed.

All that is based on there being no hint as to who wons the cash. If I could easily identify the person, no matter the amount, I'd get it to them.

Victor

If I can identify it's owner it goes back to the person. I've found €10 and €20 in the last year and kept them. Last year, I lost my wallet (ironicly on the same day I warned a woman at a bus stop to be not so obvious when she was putting her purse in her shopping bag). It was handed into a Garda station sans €20, but otherwise intact.

Legally any amount over £5 (€6.35) found should be handed to a Garda station. You are entitled to a reward of 5% for cash amounts. You can keep anything you want that you found in the sea (assuming it doesn't have a preservations status).

the_syco

Righto. I've worked in a nightclub, and I've found £1's, £20's, etc on the floor (and euro's when it came in), and i kept them. Same with bull box's of cigs. If they weren't my brand, I gave it to some staff that did. As for mobile's, wallets, coats, etc, they were handed into the cloakroom. Same with cloakroom tickets.

If I found an iPod, I'd hand it in. Same with camra's, etc. Loose money, I'd keep. Money in an envelope, I'd proberly hand in, as it couold be indentified (by the envelope).

robbie1876

Victor wrote:

You can keep anything you want that you found in the sea (assuming it doesn't have a preservations status).

That's cool. I'm off to Dun Laoghaire to claim my Stena HSS.

Victor

robbie1876 wrote:

That's cool. I'm off to Dun Laoghaire to claim my Stena HSS.

I think you'll find the captain claiming he found it first

luckat

It seems to me (though I'm open to correction) that this kind of sliding-scale honesty is actually the basis of a society that allows other, bigger kinds of dishonesty.

Again, Japan - if you left the key in your door, no one would walk in and steal your stuff. If you leave your bike at the train station, you don't bother to lock it. Because they have the attitude that *all* goods belonging to other people are none of their business, no matter how small.

Discuss prease?

seamus

luckat wrote:

It seems to me (though I'm open to correction) that this kind of sliding-scale honesty is actually the basis of a society that allows other, bigger kinds of dishonesty.

Again, Japan - if you left the key in your door, no one would walk in and steal your stuff. If you leave your bike at the train station, you don't bother to lock it. Because they have the attitude that *all* goods belonging to other people are none of their business, no matter how small.

Discuss prease?

There's not really a sliding scale though. Most people have agreed that small sums of money, on its own, is fair game, mainly because its rightful owner would be untraceable, 99% of the time. Most have also agreed that if they can track down the owner of something, they will.

The issue of theft, which is what you're talking about above, is something completely different. Dishonesty and crime aren't one and the same.

luckat

Isn't "stealing by finding" against the law, Seamus?

therecklessone

luckat wrote:

Again, Japan - if you left the key in your door, no one would walk in and steal your stuff. If you leave your bike at the train station, you don't bother to lock it. Because they have the attitude that *all* goods belonging to other people are none of their business, no matter how small.

Discuss prease?

I agree with Seamus.

Your examples above aren't exactly the same as someone losing something. Me finding €20 on the street isn't the same as me putting my hand in someone's pocket and stealing their wallet.

seamus

luckat wrote:

Isn't "stealing by finding" against the law, Seamus?

Not exactly. As I said above, if you find property and make a reasonable attempt to reunite it with its owner, you will eventually be legally entitled to keep it.

One could contend that a person "found" a bicycle lying against a railing, exactly the same as one finds a tenner on the ground.

Stealing is taking something without the owner's permission. So essentially picking up anything that doesn't belong to you is theft, plain and simple. But it also makes common sense that money on the ground is lost, and not placed there intentionally. Therefore by taking it, you are not stealing it, because ownership has been lost.