Help Mr Bigley ASAP

shellspeare

A little off topic but i would like to warn all you parents. Yesterday i checked my daughters mail box and came across a email saying "watch Britney's wedding" out of curiosity i clicked the link and my mp3 came up and downloaded a video. When i pressed play it was the latest beheading i have never seen or heard anything like this and can't begin to imagine the effect it would have on a child (if anyone's seen it you'll know what i mean). Anyhow i contacted my server provider and there had been many similar reports. She has parental settings on her account yet this got through. Please be aware.

Blub2k4

optiplexgx270 wrote:

I thought about rewriting it but didn’t think ye were worth the effort.

Illegal occupation? Oh come on!

Eh come on what? Kofi Annan is wrong on this or what? Oh come on!

leeroybrown

optiplexgx270 wrote:

Ok ok let's leave it. The whole point of this thread was as stated above if you want to continue this whole occupation blah create a new thread for it people.

This is a _discussion_ forum. I'm surprised that the tread has been so tame.

Personally speaking, while I hope that he is released by his captors unharmed, I doubt it will happen. He's a pawn in a discussion between two hard line groups. His captors need to have their terms agreed to otherwise they undermine their own position. The US/British/Irish/etc governments do not engage in deals with terrorists (and rightly so) as capitulating will ultimately create an atmosphere where this is seen as a sucessful tactic.

I don't think any of the governements involved should make unnecessary consessions.

Blub2k4 wrote:

Eh come on what? Kofi Annan is wrong on this or what? Oh come on!

Not necessarily wrong, just powerless to get it proven as such.

impr0v

optiplexgx270 wrote:

Watch the videos (and not the ones they show on tv the full length ones) and come back here and say that. You stupid ****.

And most of the Iraqis are not killed with a bread knife slicing trough their necks!

Some ppl are unbelievable. I was of your thinking until i got the videos spamed to me, now everything seems different.

you're saying he's a stupid **** and that he's unbelievable, just before saying you used to have the exact same opinions? You were the school debating champion weren't you.

The horror of being brutaly murdered was brought home to you after watching the videos was it? So now that one murder that was televised was much more horrific than the thousands that weren't. They make those videos for you, you're their target audience when they're cutting the heads off each random westener. Doing it up close and personal with the knife gets you more excited than doing it the laser guided way, pressing buttons at 15000 feet and watching the action on a camera in the nose cone, but the result is the exact same.

Would there be such a response if the same radio time was given freely to the articulate brother/sister/mother of an illegally held Iraqi prisioner, or a murdered civilian?

seamus

Blub2k4 wrote:

Eh come on what? Kofi Annan is wrong on this or what? Oh come on!

The occupation is by the American Government. Occupation is defined as
"1. Invasion, conquest, and control of a nation or territory by foreign armed forces.
2. The military government exercising control over an occupied nation or territory."

Last time I checked, construction workers weren't an armed military government. The occupation may be illegal, but the prescence of construction workers isn't. Unless they're carrying weapons on behalf of the United States, they're not involved in the occupation.

optiplexgx270

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Blub2k4

seamus wrote:

The occupation is by the American Government. Occupation is defined as
"1. Invasion, conquest, and control of a nation or territory by foreign armed forces.
2. The military government exercising control over an occupied nation or territory."

Last time I checked, construction workers weren't an armed military government. The occupation may be illegal, but the prescence of construction workers isn't. Unless they're carrying weapons on behalf of the United States, they're not involved in the occupation.

So they are not protected by them, dont get the contracts from them, dont get paid by them, dont hang around with them etc etc??
They are part of the occupation, if it were not for the invasion they would not be there.
Surely it would have made more sense for Iraqis to decide where the money etc went to, not CIA stooges like Allawi.
Companies involved in the supposed "reconstruction" are part of the occupation, if you dont see this then you must have selective intelligence.

BrookieD

Send in the SAS rescue who ever is being held and kill the scum holding them

ChipZilla

And here we go - Another eight people have been kidnapped last night.

http://www.turkishpress.com/turkishpress/news.asp?ID=28326

When do you think we'll need to start a campaign for them? Oh wait, they're Egyptians...

impr0v

seamus wrote:

The occupation is by the American Government. Occupation is defined as
"1. Invasion, conquest, and control of a nation or territory by foreign armed forces.
2. The military government exercising control over an occupied nation or territory."

Last time I checked, construction workers weren't an armed military government. The occupation may be illegal, but the prescence of construction workers isn't. Unless they're carrying weapons on behalf of the United States, they're not involved in the occupation.

All true, but aren't the lines slightly blurred when quite a few of the rebuilding contracts are awarded by the US military?

ChipZilla

BrookieD wrote:

Send in the SAS rescue who ever is being held and kill the scum holding them

He's most likely being held in Fallujah, which is a no-go area for US troops (or even the SAS)...

seamus

Blub2k4 wrote:

So they are not protected by them, dont get the contracts from them, dont get paid by them, dont hang around with them etc etc??

Of course they do. The Gardai protect us, give us contracts, I hang around with Gardai. Does that make us Gardai? No.

They are part of the occupation, if it were not for the invasion they would not be there.

Very true, but irrelevent. The invasion *has* taken place, and they are there. Do you think the Americans should pull out and leave the Iraqis at it? Doesn't sound very fair.

Surely it would have made more sense for Iraqis to decide where the money etc went to, not CIA stooges like Allawi.

Completely agreed, but not relevant.

Companies involved in the supposed "reconstruction" are part of the occupation, if you dont see this then you must have selective intelligence.

If an Iraqi company was involved in reconstruction, do they then become part of the occupation? What about an Iraqi worker hired by an American construction company?

I think the abuse of position and backscratching that's been going on with the reconstruction contracts is disgusting, but it doesn't mean that the average joe going over there with an opportunistic glint in his eye (or in Ken Bigley's case, with the intention of helping) is an oppressive occupier who deserves everything they get.

stevenmu

On the original topic, I'm sure the Irish government would love to save him, we've all seen how Bertie likes to look good on the world stage, but is there actually anything constructive that they can do ?

seamus

stevenmu wrote:

On the original topic, I'm sure the Irish government would love to save him, we've all seen how Bertie likes to look good on the world stage, but is there actually anything constructive that they can do ?

Could make him an Irish citizen, then plead with the terrorists not to kill one of ours....?

stevenmu

Not a bad idea. The only thing is they'll probably still behead him anyway so as not to appear weak, and that would force the government into some kind of reaction so they don't appear weak either. They can't really say "don't kill one of ours" and then sit back and do nothing if they do. Of course they could decide to appear merciful to an Irish citizen so maybe it'd be worth a shot.

HelterSkelter

ravenhead wrote:

Fu@k, go in & blow the crap out of them!!! That's my opinion anyway

That's the attitude that caused this war in the first place numbhead :mad:

HelterSkelter

optiplexgx270 wrote:

Watch the videos (and not the ones they show on tv the full length ones) and come back here and say that. You stupid ****.

And most of the Iraqis are not killed with a bread knife slicing trough their necks!

Yeah, they are shot or blown up by bombs/missiles and left to die in agony lying on the ground.

Some ppl are unbelievable. I was of your thinking until i got the videos spamed to me, now everything seems different.

I saw the full videos also but I am still of the opinion that these people should not be in Iraq making money off the back of the misery of ordinary Iraqis. Of course I think it is terrible the way they were killed, it's horrible that these kidnappers hack through the neck of someone still alive. But don't forget that so many Iraqis are being killed everyday and it hardy gets a mention in the press.

HelterSkelter

ravenhead wrote:

How can you say that!!! this man has gone to iraq to help it's people to rebuild their country, It has nothing to do with political gain or money. He is a man that wanted to put his abilities to good use & he should not have to pay with his life for wanting to help the people of iraq - what would you suggest, leave these people with no help ????

You are so gullable, do you really believe all that American/British propaganda about everyone being there to HELP the iraqis rebuild their country and librate them????

optiplexgx270

bah i cant be bothered.

HelterSkelter

seamus wrote:

Do you think the Americans should pull out and leave the Iraqis at it? Doesn't sound very fair.

I think the Americans should pull out and leave the Iraqis to it. I do however think that the Americans and Brits should pay for the rebuilding of the country. But the Iraqis should be making all the decisions on who gets the rebuilding contracts (and I don't mean the current Iraqi government who are basically puppets on a string)

Sleipnir

That would result in civil war.

Blub2k4

seamus wrote:

Of course they do. The Gardai protect us, give us contracts, I hang around with Gardai. Does that make us Gardai? No.

Ehhh the guards have a mandate from the Irish people, not at all the same case.

seamus wrote:

Very true, but irrelevent. The invasion *has* taken place, and they are there. Do you think the Americans should pull out and leave the Iraqis at it? Doesn't sound very fair.

"Yankie go home" springs to mind. I think the Iraqis would get on fine without their country being raped and pillaged by a Western power stealing their resources. Let's break it so we can fix it seems to be your logic, doesn't wash with me, I say it should never have been broken and in this case (remaining with the analogy) they should hand the Iraqis the glue and help them if they need it (when an elected govt asks maybe) to put it back together. You would support this wholescale theft I wouldn't. I mean they went in to remove Saddam, he is gone, so yankie go home.
<edit>I think your concept of fair has been somewhat blunted or maybe was never very sharp.

seamus wrote:

Completely agreed, but not relevant.

It is relevant, Bigley is part of the thieving band cashing in on Iraq's American caused misfortune, had he been contracted by an elected Irtaqi government like in the other arab countries he worked in then I would think... ooh poor man, he's not he's employed by the occupier.

seamus wrote:

If an Iraqi company was involved in reconstruction, do they then become part of the occupation? What about an Iraqi worker hired by an American construction company?

Again contracted to a legal Iraqi govt I dont have a problem, working for the yanks they are called collaborators, they know the game too.

seamus wrote:

I think the abuse of position and backscratching that's been going on with the reconstruction contracts is disgusting, but it doesn't mean that the average joe going over there with an opportunistic glint in his eye (or in Ken Bigley's case, with the intention of helping) is an oppressive occupier who deserves everything they get.

So Ken's an altruist now, hmmm noble that.

Blub2k4

optiplexgx270 wrote:

bah i cant be bothered.

good call.

ravenhead

HelterSkelter wrote:

That's the attitude that caused this war in the first place numbhead :mad:

Did you actually read my posts at all dimwit????? :rolleyes:

HelterSkelter

Blub2k4, you hit the nail on the head there.

Blub2k4

HelterSkelter wrote:

I think the Americans should pull out and leave the Iraqis to it. I do however think that the Americans and Brits should pay for the rebuilding of the country. But the Iraqis should be making all the decisions on who gets the rebuilding contracts (and I don't mean the current Iraqi government who are basically puppets on a string)

Agreed they should pay for it and not raid the Iraqi state coffers, you people think they are monkeys or something and cant run a country without Western help, Western civilisation my arse.

ravenhead

HelterSkelter wrote:

You are so gullable, do you really believe all that American/British propaganda about everyone being there to HELP the iraqis rebuild their country and librate them????

Look helterskelter, everyone knows that the war in iraq happened because of one thing & one thing only ... Oil... it has nothing to do with libarating people,could you please read my posts before making statements??? :mad:
For my very first post on this I have made it clear that I believe american & britain have had their fun & now it's time to use their 'power' to sort out some of the crap that they have caused!!

HelterSkelter

ravenhead wrote:

Look helterskelter, everyone knows that the war in iraq happened because of one thing & one thing only ... Oil... it has nothing to do with libarating people,could you please read my posts before making statements??? :mad:
For my very first post on this I have made it clear that I believe american & britain have had their fun & now it's time to use their 'power' to sort out some of the crap that they have caused!!

Sorry, shouldn't have called you names, I was just feeling a bit frustrated reading some peoples opinions.

Do you agree with Blub24k's post above? That's the point I am trying to get accross. It is so obvious that the Yanks & Brits are milking the whole rebuilding process and getting rich off the backs of the Iraqis. They should go home.

Blub2k4

ravenhead wrote:

For my very first post on this I have made it clear that I believe american & britain have had their fun & now it's time to use their 'power' to sort out some of the crap that they have caused!!

The problem seems to be that the USA equates power purely with military might, now if they could use an Abrams to construct a building or cluster build them they'd be masters of reconstruction.

ravenhead

HelterSkelter wrote:

Sorry, shouldn't have called you names, I was just feeling a bit frustrated reading some peoples opinions.

Do you agree with Blub24k's post above? That's the point I am trying to get accross. It is so obvious that the Yanks & Brits are milking the whole rebuilding process and getting rich off the backs of the Iraqis. They should go home.

No worries.. it's a touchy subject But I do completely agree with you on this one, it's about time that the UN went into Iraq & get the US & Britain out, the ordinary everyday person in iraq has done nothing to deserve the treatment that they are receiving from the troops, not all the troops but some.. I mean the war is over, it's time to leave iraq sort itself out & the Militant need to realise this also, as long as they keep up with this barbaric behaviour, life in iraq is never going to improve.

Blub2k4

leeroybrown wrote:

Not necessarily wrong, just powerless to get it proven as such.

Dont mix up right and wrong with who has the biggest gun.

seamus

Blub2k4 wrote:

. Let's break it so we can fix it seems to be your logic, doesn't wash with me,

I've no idea where you got that from. Did I say anywhere that I thought it was OK to invade so as to give contracts to Americans? No.

I say it should never have been broken

Yeah, that's nice, we all think that, but the fact of the matter is that it *is* broken.

and in this case (remaining with the analogy) they should hand the Iraqis the glue and help them if they need it (when an elected govt asks maybe) to put it back together. You would support this wholescale theft I wouldn't. I mean they went in to remove Saddam, he is gone, so yankie go home.

I don't support the way it's been done at all. You're reading my posts and completely ignoring what I'm saying.
The main problem is that you can't just go in, remove a dictator, then say "bye-bye" and **** off. The country would be thrown into turmoil. They would be better off under the dictator.
So you need to install an interim Government to try stabilise the region, and to restablish the basic services for the nation's good.
Ideally, this interim Government would do very little in the way of provisioning huge contracts, and would simply set up a framework involving security, health and education services.
But you can't leave chunks of the place in ruins, people without homes, and infrastructure fractured. So some rebuilding has to be done.
So contracts have to go out. And a massive amount of skilled labour has to be found very quickly. Foreigners.

The problem this time is with the provisioning of contracts. *Big* contracts went out, instead of small, critical ones, and they were blatantly promised to American interests before the war even started. It should have been handled by an Iraqi board, with contracts going to Iraqi companies (as much as possible), and all the money coming from the coalition countries. Everything else stays the same. The same American, British, Irish, Italian, etc, people would be over there contracting, doing the work.

So Ken's an altruist now, hmmm noble that.

I'd call pleading for help for Iraqi people when you should be pleading for your own life, pretty ****ing altruistic.

Basically your entire posts stinks of, "They shouldn't be there, so **** them, they deserve to die." Nobody here disagrees that he knew the risks, but you seem to think that the resistance have a right to capture people and execute them for working there.

Can I remind you that anybody working over there, does not, nor has not participated in the killing or takeover of Iraq. If they weren't there, thousands of Iraqis would *still* be dying and Iraq would *still* be occupied. If contractors are occupiers, then their removal would mean the end of occupation. Oh wait, it wouldn't.

Waaaay off topic

Big Ears

Blub2k4 you seem to have the attitude that anyone trying to help Iraqi's deserves to die , why is that ?

Blub2k4

Big Ears wrote:

Blub2k4 you seem to have the attitude that anyone trying to help Iraqi's deserves to die , why is that ?

You seem to think they are there to help Iraqis, why is that?
I dont think they are there to help Iraqis is why.

ro_chez

I'd say the only reason Bigley's still alive (or we're being led to believe he's alive), is so gullible fools like those demanding that the Irish and British governments do something about it, react in this way, and to turn the public against them.

unkel

Sound post seamus

seamus wrote:

I'd call pleading for help for Iraqi people when you should be pleading for your own life, pretty ****ing altruistic

Indeed. I couldn't believe all the posts making the point he got what he deserved...

HashSlinging

yippie for the gullible fools then.. rather do something than sit and watch.

ro_chez

HashSlinging wrote:

yippie for the gullible fools then.. rather do something than sit and watch.

Ah yeah but getting the Irish government involved like, those eegits would probably get him killed :rolleyes:

seamus

ro_chez wrote:

Ah yeah but getting the Irish government involved like, those eegits would probably get him killed :rolleyes:

Turns out he is actually Irish. Well his mum is, so by inheritance, he is. Maybe they should make a plea for the life of one of our citizens?

HashSlinging

couldnt be any worse than what blair or bush are doing now. His mother is irish therefore he could have played for ireland.. stupid I know but..

Moriarty

Sleipnir wrote:

"It's really not a number I'm terribly interested in."

General Colin Powell [When asked about the number of Iraqi people who were slaughtered by Americans in the 1991 "Desert Storm"

Iraqi civilians or Iraqi military? Since you left that out, I'm presuming the latter.

What's the problem with that?

ChipZilla

Depends on what you read:

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&q=%22It%27s+really+not+a+number+I%27m+terribly+interested+in%2E%22

Some reports say the number was just troops, others say the number was Iraqis as a whole.

Either way, Powell is a pretty sick puppy:

http://www.nowarcollective.com/powellbio.htm

Taken from Powell's autobiography:

"If driven to it, I wrote, we would destroy the dams on the Tigris and Euphrates rivers and flood Baghdad, with horrendous consequences. (Powell, 1995; p.491)"

Bombing water supplies violates Article 54 of the Geneva Convention titled the Protection of Objects Indispensable to the Survival of the Civilian Population. Article 56 specifically bans the destruction of dams, even for military objectives.

Gen. Powell also decided to bomb biological and chemical weapons arsenals (Powell, 1995; p.491). Article 56 of the Geneva Convention, Protection of Works and Installations Containing Dangerous Forces, bans attacking such installations even for military objectives as these may cause immense harm to the civilian population and the environment. On the subject of bombing these arsenals, Gen. Powell writes that he told Sir David Craig "if it heads south, just blame me" (Powell, 1995; p.491) – the implication being that he didn’t care if enemy civilians lost their lives, only if U.S. forces were imperiled. Even more blatantly, when asked about the total number of Iraqi dead killed by the air and ground assault by the U.S., he replied, " It's really not a number I'm terribly interested in". (New York Times, 3/23/1991)

Big Ears

Blub2k4 wrote:

You seem to think they are there to help Iraqis, why is that?
I dont think they are there to help Iraqis is why.

Is the American government there to help Iraqi's = hell no they only want it to look like thats what they want .

Is there skilled civilians in western countries that actually want to make a difference=yes

Is there skilled civilians in western countries that just want to make a lot of money quite quickly=yes , but I do not beleive Mr.Bigley is one of these men and he is trying to make a difference .

Does he deserve to be kidnapped or murdered or both=no .

I hope that in a way answers you're question .

Wertz

Sorry to butt in here but no-one's seemed to make the point here as to WTF difference it makes to the Al'amist's (sp?) martyr's brigade whther he's Irish or British. To them he's another westerner and is treated as such.

Our nation's days of being seen abroad as some species of lovable peace-mongers or whatever are long gone, at least in the parts of the world where it currently matters. Pleas from our government will have little affect.

I hope I speak for everyone in this thread when I say that none of us want to see this guy in an mpeg file at a later stage minus his head. but these fundamentalists are trying to get a point out to westerners, that you are a prime target for this horror if you make the journey out there to work for the US greenback. So far I think they're getting that point out pretty well no..?

SkepticOne

HashSlinging wrote:

Michael D. Higgins is trying to help Kenneth Bigley to safely return home. Bertie & Brian Cowan are not interested so if you want the Irish Gov to help this man and his suffering family send an e-mail to the following e-mail address stating your support. The poor mans brother was on the radio this morning begging for Ireland to help him so we should let the Gov know we want them to try something. Just even send a blank mail to join the petition.

bringbigleyhome@newstalk106.ie

So, what exactly should Ireland do to help Bigley? Try to get Blair to capitulate to their demands? What message would that send out to other lunatic fanatics in Iraq and around the world?

Is this really about Bigley or is it really about the rights and wrongs of the Iraq invasion and occupation. If it is about the latter the hostages (not specifically Bigley) would be far better served if the issues were kept separate.

If I don't like British rule in Northern Ireland, does this mean I can go up there and do what I like with those who have worked with the British?

Maybe the US and British should pull out of Iraq, but if they do so it is because the occupation itself is wrong - not because people who are purportedly on the side of the Iraqis do things or threaten to do things of a barbaric nature. To pull out for those reasons would be totally ****ed up.

cleansingfire

Wertz wrote:

these fundamentalists are trying to get a point out to westerners, that you are a prime target for this horror if you make the journey out there to work for the US greenback. So far I think they're getting that point out pretty well no..?

i've been trying to get media attention on the state of a bad turn on the road into town. three dead there the last 18 months. has wertz shown us the way forward?

TomTom

optiplexgx270 wrote:

Watch the videos (and not the ones they show on tv the full length ones) and come back here and say that. You stupid ****.

And most of the Iraqis are not killed with a bread knife slicing trough their necks!

Some ppl are unbelievable. I was of your thinking until i got the videos spamed to me, now everything seems different.

Why oh why on gods green earth would you watch someone being beheaded. Are you a bit sick in the ****ing head or what.

The un avoidable point of this is that a country cannot negociate with a terriost as if they do it will spirial out of control.
Also you ask why america with all its technology cannot find these people, i believe it a case of doing whatever serves their needs best, why find osma when we can use it as a reason to doop the contry into starting war. Why stop this capturing of people when it is turning people against iraquies and making you look better in the eyes of the public.

billy the squid

Yeah yeah what blair and bush did was wrong.. but all the original post asked was that people either send an email to the government. You can either sent the bloody email or just go onto the next bloody thread and put a :eek: iin response to someone selling knickers if you like for all i care.

This man has done nothing to deserve the situation he is in. None of those people deserve it and the iraqis who were killed either before during or after the war didn't deserve it.

Would you have said the same about multinational companies moving to the likes of belfast and offering jobs to prop up the economy down south. This man worked for a Qatar based company. (Qatar is in the middle east by the way) for the past few years. He just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. That wasnt his fault. posts like "Oh, he knew the risks for **** him" are just as insensative as what colin powel said the number (of dead iraqis) is something im not interested in.

Those five people knew the risk im sure when they lined up for that bus on wellington quay. would you say the same thing about that chipzilla.

flogen

Well said Billy, I'll be sending you some rep when I can.

This isn't a politics thread, its just about doing something to save the life of a human being. The petition may do fúck all, but it's something rather than nothing.
If you don't want to sign it for whatever reasons, political or personal, then don't, but I don't understand why people take an attitude of "let him die, he knew the risks" or "loads of Iraqis die everyday etc. etc.". I for one would do what I could to stop any death, but as I said to chipzilla (forgot to sign, chipzilla), sending an e-mail to Bush isn't going to stop him, sending one to these terrorists just might... what exactly does that say about the current situation? (I'm not trying to say the terrorists are kind hearted, and will stop with a few kind words, but they let the French captives go without getting their way and they might do the same here too)

flogen

ChipZilla

Right flogen, whatever you say...

How many of you bleeding heart humanitarians could actually name one Iraqi person who's died in the last year without doing a Google? Anybody want to start campaigning for them? :rolleyes: