Rise of the far left in Germany

Sand

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3672670.stm

It looks like the friendlier version of the Nazi party is on the rise, taking 9% of the vote in Saxonys recent state elections, beating the German laws designed to prevent such extremist parties from taking seats. Another similar party took 6% of the vote. Theyre cashing in on workers discontent with Schroeders reform of the social welfare state in Germany, along with a healthy dose of ultra-nationalism.

A reporter in the linked article raises the question that Germanys democracy has never been seriously tested before by economic depression. Of course it has been , in the 1920s and 30s. The reporter is almost certainly exaggerating the threat but does the rise of nationalist socialist parties across Europe ( Ireland is not immune as SF demonstrates ), as well as on-going anti-semetic attacks in France, represent a cause for concern or just a "blip" caused by bad economic conditions? If it is a blip doesnt this mean Europe hasnt actually moved on at all from the thirties....that we are just a Great Depression away from illiberal regimes siezing power in Europe - and not necessarily Europe?

simu

That should be "far right" in the title, surely.

If it is a blip doesnt this mean Europe hasnt actually moved on at all from the thirties....that we are just a Great Depression away from illiberal regimes siezing power in Europe - and not necessarily Europe?

Didn't someone once say that any country is only three meals away from a revolution?

I'd see this election result in Saxony as a protest vote, I don't see a far-right party like this coming to power in Germany - most Germans are all too aware of the troubles caused by such parties in the past.

I'm also wary of trying to see a unifying trend accross different European countries with this sort of thing. Most of the anti-semitic sentiment displayed in France nowadays comes from a different source to that of the days of Pétain and before, namely a minority of members of the Muslim community reacting to the situation in Israel rather than Christians who have a centuries-long fear of Jews.

Sinn Féin gaining support in Ireland doesn't indicate a growth in nationalism either imo - they're seen by most voters as an alternative to Fianna Fáil and they put a lot of effort into campaigning in areas neglected by other parties so their success is unsurprising. They'd lose most of their support quicky enough if they started going on about comely maidens and autarky and what not.

Blips, say I - it's unsurprising to have a few voices screaming crazy things on the edge of mainstream political discourse in a democracy.

Sparks

How does 9% of the people in one small state in germany voting for the local equivalent of the BNP translate into imminent carnage for anyone who's not aaryan, exactly? I think I missed the bit where you actually explained that Sand, you just seemed to state it like it was as obvious as gravity...

RuggieBear

simu wrote:

.....
I'd see this election result in Saxony as a protest vote, I don't see a far-right party like this coming to power in Germany - most Germans are all too aware of the troubles caused by such parties in the past.

While i agree with everything you say, and even tho i do reckon you are correct with the above statement, i just a small note on this opinion: The Austrians managed to elect Hader a few years back and everyone thought that they would be " all too aware of the troubles caused by such parties in the past".

simu

RuggieBear wrote:

While i agree with everything you say, and even tho i do reckon you are correct with the above statement, i just a small note on this opinion: The Austrians managed to elect Hader a few years back and everyone thought that they would be " all too aware of the troubles caused by such parties in the past".

True but Haider has yet to set up a dictatorship and start carting his enemies off to concentration camps.

RuggieBear

simu wrote:

True but Haider has yet to set up a dictatorship and start carting his enemies off to concentration camps.

True! But what i was trying to get at was that it's not beyond the bounds of possibility for these right wing loonies to get to real positions of influence...even in countries that have had expeirences of murderous rightwing crackpots in the past.

Sparks

There are those, Ruggie, that would agree with you and point to George Bush Jr. as an example

RuggieBear

Sparks wrote:

There are those, Ruggie, that would agree with you and point to George Bush Jr. as an example

:eek:

Sadly, i can't argue......

Redleslie2

simu wrote:

That should be "far right" in the title, surely.

Yes it should, but Sand believes the nazis were lefties because they had the word "socialist" in the party name. By that "logic", there shouldn't be any problem with the National Democratic Party.

Anyway, I can't imagine that Sand is going to go off to somewhere like Kreuzberg, Berlin anytime soon and fight the nazis in the streets or something. Lots and lots of Turks there and we know how much he dislikes multiculturalism.

Sand

That should be "far right" in the title, surely.

Nope - the fact that these parties are cashing in on discontent from Schroeders reform of the socialist institutions in Germany should tell its own story.

How does 9% of the people in one small state in germany voting for the local equivalent of the BNP translate into imminent carnage for anyone who's not aaryan, exactly? I think I missed the bit where you actually explained that Sand, you just seemed to state it like it was as obvious as gravity...

Well youve got 9% for this party, and as a comparison youve got Schroders ruling party polling 9.8% of the vote in the Saxony election which has a population greater than Ireland. So youve got a party which the German government attempted to ban for its nazi links polling almost the same as the mainstream socialist government party.

Now maybe its just me, but it is a tad concerning. Whether thats as obvious as gravity depends on the individual Id guess.

Sparks

Sand wrote:

Well youve got 9% for this party, and as a comparison youve got Schroders ruling party polling 9.8% of the vote in the Saxony election

See, that's the point. The Saxony election compared to the overall national election is like the Sligo election compared to the General election - you might lose a seat in Sligo to SF, but you're not about to see Taoiseach Adams any time soon!

simu

Sand wrote:

Nope - the fact that these parties are cashing in on discontent from Schroeders reform of the socialist institutions in Germany should tell its own story.

???

You're the only one who uses the term in that way! Are you trying to start a new system of political language on this forum?

MrNuked

heard the term used that way before. The original nazis were the National Socialist Party. Economically they are left wing aren't they? That's part of the appeal to the people in underpriviledged areas, which are the ones who seem to be the most sympathetic with these ideas. The hyper-chauvinistic jingoistic attitudes they have are the problem, not that. (Chauvinistic in the sense of exaggerated patriotism).
Sinn Féin are the equivalent in this country. They are a genuinely socialist party too.

Sand

See, that's the point. The Saxony election compared to the overall national election is like the Sligo election compared to the General election - you might lose a seat in Sligo to SF, but you're not about to see Taoiseach Adams any time soon!

The population of Saxony is 4.6 million people - its not an irrelevancy. Intelligent Europeans - who should know more about ethnic strife than anyone - are voting in significant numbers ( over the 5% barrier designed to eliminate the extremist vote ) for national socialism.

Now, I dont expect to see German tanks rolling across the border into Poland tommorrow but this is happening in an era of *some* economic discontent in Europe - or more worryingly you might say this is occuring in a period of relatively middling economic performance. There is the constant possibility that a global depression might hit hard - if that happens will democracy buckle under the populist appeal of socialism and nationalism as it did in the twenties and thirties? These forces can still score victories in modern liberal democratic Europe after all weve learnt about them and youre not the slightest bit concerned?

You're the only one who uses the term in that way! Are you trying to start a new system of political language on this forum?

Im calling a spade a spade. If you can point out where these nationalist socialist parties call for the scaling back or even abolishment of government, the reduction or elimination of taxation, and the rights of the individual over and beyond the state then Ill be happy to call them right wing.

Until then it looks a bit odd to place authoritarian, state above the individual, planned economy socialists out to the far right along with Anarcho Capitalists.

And to be honest if everyone else persists in describing national socialism as a right wing idealogy theyre just plain wrong. But thats okay. They have a right to be wrong. They dont have a right to ask me to ignore common sense and join them in their foolishness however.

[EDIT] Actually Im being a bit harsh above. Its not anyones fault that the confusion arises. Common terminolgy is to describe any distasteful idealogy as being right wing or far right. This ignores the philosophy or roots of the idealogy and insteads classifies it as "good" or "evil". Left= Good, Right= Evil. Its so successfully infiltrated all political debate that we dont even think about it anymore. Id imagine a lot of the confusion comes from the bitter struggles between Communist and Nazi groups in Weimar Germany - the Commies were definitly left, and they couldnt conceive they could have another left wing group as a rival. But when you do consider what defines "right" and "left" it becomes clear - to me at least, that you cant honestly argue that the Nazis were anything other than left wing.

The problem is, as Ive said before, that the indoctrination of right=evil is so complete, that its almost impossible for people to accept that. So I was being a bit harsh above, but I could never describe the Nazis as being right wing - it just doesnt make any sense.[/EDIT]

bonkey

Sand wrote:

Now, I dont expect to see German tanks rolling across the border into Poland tommorrow but this is happening in an era of *some* economic discontent in Europe - or more worryingly you might say this is occuring in a period of relatively middling economic performance. There is the constant possibility that a global depression might hit hard - if that happens will democracy buckle under the populist appeal of socialism and nationalism as it did in the twenties and thirties? These forces can still score victories in modern liberal democratic Europe after all weve learnt about them and youre not the slightest bit concerned?

Is that really whats happening though? Is it not also explainable by a backlash against an ethos which people see as having fundamentally failed them?

The last boom brought untold riches - but mostly to the already rich. It was a sliding scale - the better off you were at the start, the more you gained. Those towards the lower-end (who are more numerous) received fewer benefits, often being asked to wait for the "goodness" to arrive - they had to make the (relative) sacrifices to help the economy grow, and to enable the boom to continue.

Then the bust hit, and - mild though it may have been in relative terms - it was the less-well-off who got proportionally hit the most again.

It is inevitable that sooner or later some/many of these people will become disenfranchised. They will look to back someone who can make a change in the ways things work, not just in someone who offers a different flavour of the same basic model.

The way I see it is that the existant mainstream parties are being sent a message - that simply improving the economy/employment rate/infrastructure/whatever is not enough when the benefits are not felt equally (let alone where they are not focussed on those who actually need them most).

Perhaps its an inevitable manifestation of the fact that while The system over here on all ATMs is that you have to choose between "withdrawal without receipt" and "withdrawal with receipt".

Ultimately, a lot (if not all) of western/developed-economy democracies may have to face the reality that the largest socio-economic groups are those that are least-served by the benefits of successful capitalism in its current form....and that they have the power to make their objections felt in a democratic manner by rejecting a continuation of the status quo.

From what I can see, anything left- or right-oriented seems to be classified as "far-X" or else gets redescribed as "effectively middle-of-the-road with slight leanings to the X". And so, it is hardly unsurprising that it is the far-left who are gaining support as people turn from the current ideology which they see as having failed them.

Would they continue to support such groups if and when some genuinely far-left or extremist measures get proposed in government? I doubt it...I don't think people have quite forgotten the past that readily. But until that happens, backing someone who isn't just going to perpetuate the corporate-centric economic reality of the past decade or so, and giving them the power to start challenging such a model.....I can see how that would have an attraction.

And remember - whether or not we individually believe in the feasibility of a leftist socialist model....for someone who has concluded they are not adequately served by the current system in good times or bad, an alternate model which at least appears to be looking out for them is often going to be worth trying. Given a recent thread (also discussed before) about how relatively uneducated/uninformed many people are about political reality.....its even more possible to understand the shift in voting patterns without seeing it as an End of Days scenario.

Of course...that may all be completely wrong, and maybe another invasion of Poland is metaphorically on the cards......but I genuinely don't think we're anywhere near there yet.

jc


jc

snorlax

forget about the nazis,by the time they come to power how many more countries will george w bush have exterminated in search of oil. i d say his ulta nationalism is a far bigger threat then anything neo nazis could come up with. dont forget the atom bomb/ cruise missiles/ satilliltes that can spy on our every move and even check our libary record.

Moriarty

Yes, because as we all know the local reprebate atom bombs, cruise missiles and satellites rummage through everyones libarary records when no ones looking.

arcadegame2004

I consider warnings of the rise of Fascism/Communism in Germany to be misplaced hype by some excited reporters of the doom-prophecising variety (all due respect to them ).

The Freedom Party was portrayed as a new Nazi Party and they have been in Coalition with the Austrian Peoples' Party for the past 4 years (or was it longer I can't remember) or so and I don't see any concentration-camps/gas-chambers/Fascist salutes yet! Same in Italy with regard to Alleanzo Nationale's participation in the Coalition government there. Same with regard to List Pim Fortyn in the Netherlands. I wonder why there wasn't such a rumpus when Communists joined the French coalition government of Lionel Jospin (1997-2002)? Many are unware that Stalin killed far more civilians even than Hitler (40 million Soviet citizens), and that Mao Zedong worked 100 million Chinese civilians to death on collective farms not to mention the 2 million Tibetans butchered by the highly-inappropriately-named "Peoples' Liberation Army"(!). France hasn't slid towards dictatorship has it?

I think that modern Europe (excluding Russsia, Belarus,Ukraine, Azerbijian, Armenia and Kazakhstan) has its democratic-foundations far better defended by its present-day constitutions than by those in place at the time of the rise of Hitler and Mussolini. No President is going to be so stupid nowadays as to hand the Premiership of a country to a fascist and then have him/her surround the parliament-building to keep out opposition deputies! And even if they did the restraints in the German and other constitutions on the powers of the Government would prevent a dictatorship being established. Most importantly of all, the West is far richer now. The economic-crisis in Germany and Italy preceded and largely caused their slides to dictatorship. Note that it is only in Eastern Germany (as far as I know) that the German People's Union and the National Democratic Party are faring well, i.e. the economically-depressed part of Germany. I wouldn't be too worried, given that only around 15% of the German population actually live in former East Germany.

Redleslie2

MrNuked wrote:

heard the term used that way before.

It's used by extreme right wingers to try to distance themselves (for obvious reasons) from the elements of nazi ideology (eg social darwinism, militarism, xenophobia/anti-multiculturalism, hatred of philosophy and 'useless' art) that they're in agreement with to varying degrees. The nazis couldn't have got to power without the backing of capitalists like Fritz Thyssen. Is anyone thick enough to suggest that people like Thyssen were of the "far left". Well, obviously.

Oh look.



The "far left" are apparently against multiculturalism. I thought that was Sand and Arcade's job.

Sinn Féin are the equivalent in this country.

No they're not really. Whatever else one may justifiably accuse them of, SF are far more liberal on immigration, asylum and multiculturalism issues than the likes of Sand and parties like the BNP and NDP are.

Sand

Is that really whats happening though? Is it not also explainable by a backlash against an ethos which people see as having fundamentally failed them?

Which ethos would that be though? You refer to the liberal democratic free market model, and this vote could be seen in those terms. but this vote carries other baggage - the reformed communist party ( who actually did quite well ) would have been the more obvious choice for a protest vote under that interpretation I would have thought? Instead these guys polled comftably above the margin designed to eliminate the lunatic fringe.

Given a recent thread (also discussed before) about how relatively uneducated/uninformed many people are about political reality.....its even more possible to understand the shift in voting patterns without seeing it as an End of Days scenario.

How long will it take for relatively uneducated/uninformed people to realise theyve made an error in judgement, and what sort of damage will have been done in the meantime though? The Germans, more than anyone, worked to prevent extremists getting any seats - their safeguard has been breached. Thats a worry.

Most importantly of all, the West is far richer now. The economic-crisis in Germany and Italy preceded and largely caused their slides to dictatorship.

Weve yet to discover/implement the vaccine for economic ailments. A serious downturn is not impossible - indeed many are predicting the US is going to face serious economic problems in the future, and the last time that happened was....ooooh 1929 or thereabouts. Should a serious economic crisis occurs, what then?

It doesnt say much for the advancement of european politics since WW2 that extremist idealogies are warded off in the main by economic success.

That said, the dullwitted ignorance of some victims of our education system regarding national socialism, beyond a belief that its witty to call people you dont like Nazis, probably doesnt help at all.

Redleslie2

Sand wrote:

the dullwitted ignorance of some victims of our education system regarding national socialism,

Yes, I'd estimate that 99% of the population probably came out of our education system with a reasonably accurate idea of what the nazis were about. But anyone who believes that Hjalmar Schacht (Reichsbank president) and the assorted German industrialists who backed the nazis were "far left" deserves the dunciest dunce cap going and a good running kick up the hole for good measure.

Schacht developed right-wing political ideas and in 1930 was converted to fascism after reading Mein Kampf. In January, 1931 Hermann Goering arranged a meeting with Adolf Hitler. Schacht agreed to raise funds for the Nazi Party. Schacht, who had good contacts with Germany's industrialists persuaded Albert Voegler (United Steel Works) Gustav Krupp and Alfried Krupp to join people such as Fritz Thyssen, Emile Kirdorf, Carl Bechstein and Hugo Bruckmann in providing money for the party.

In November, 1932, Schacht organized the letter signed by Germany's leading industrialists that urged Paul von Hindenburg to appoint Adolf Hitler as chancellor. This was successful and on 20th February, 1933, Schacht arranged a meeting of the Association of German Industrialists that raised 3 million marks for the Nazi Party in the forthcoming election.

Concentration camp inmates had coloured triangles to denote what category they belonged to:

Yellow for Jews.
Red for politicals (KPD and SPD members, anarchists, trade unionists).
Brown for gypsies.
Green for criminals.
Blue for foreign forced laborers.
Black for 'antisocials' (prostitutes, the homeless).
Pink for homosexuals.
Purple for Jehovah's Witnesses.
White for people who refused work.

No capitalist schweinhund category? How queer. What an amazing oversight on the part of the "far left." If anything, that looks like a list of the Daily Mail's usual targets. Just swap muslims for jews, asylum seekers for foreign labourers and give paedophiles their own category (orange triangle will do).


Sand is......confused. Yes?

Redleslie2

Rofl at the silly sod who gave me a neg rep and this stimulating assessment of the above post.

Completely clueless rubbish, as usual.

Someone doesn't like seeing unpleasant reminders of nazi nastyness.

Redleslie2

If neo-nazis are the far left then who the blazes are those people who prevent them marching?

Protesters Derail German Neo-Nazi March

Monday October 4, 2004 2:46 AM

LEIPZIG, Germany (AP) - Several thousand demonstrators turned out Sunday to protest a march by some 150 neo-Nazis in the eastern German city of Leipzig, police said.

While some 4,000 protesters marched peacefully, groups of demonstrators who set up burning trash cans as barricades threw stones and other objects at police and broke windows at a bank.

Police used water cannons and succeeded in keeping apart the far-right sympathizers and counter-demonstrators, but a police officer was injured after being struck with a bottle and 29 people were arrested.

The far-right event was organized by Christian Worch, one of Germany's most visible neo-Nazis. His group was escorted to the train station without marching after police, citing safety concerns, refused to let it take the planned route through a traditionally left-wing suburb.

The protests came two weeks after the far-right National Democratic Party capitalized on discontent over cuts to the welfare state to win 9.2 percent of the vote in a state election in the eastern state of Saxony, where Leipzig is located.