Is Blair a hypocrite?

arcadegame2004

Originally posted by Bonkey
As I said...show me one action carried out by non-terrorist-related groups in Chechnya that Blair has tried to link to international terrorism. If you can't do that, then you really are just using this as an excuse to vent about the Russians again.

Well remember back to when Akhmad Kadyrov, the head of the pro-Moscow puppet-government/Vichy regime was killed in a Chechen rebel attack. Now after WW2, Marshall Petain and Pierre Laval (the leaders of the pro-Nazi puppet French government) were sentenced to death (Petain's sentence was communted to life imprisonment due only to his 84 or so years but otherwise he would have been executed) for treason.

Yet I recall hearing Blair referring to this killing in Chechnya as "terrorism".

Kadyrov was installed by a rigged election. He was a traitor and a collaborator. Human Rights groups have frequently condemned the death-squads under Kadyriov's control that would take part in massacres of fellow Chechens, as well storming into villages and towns and demanding, on pain of death, that the local Chechen men join these death-squads.

As such, I consider his killing to be a casualty of war and not terrorism. He committed treason against Chechnya by collaborating with a brutal occupation. Blair and the other Western leaders think differently of course. Blair is no doubt motivated by his puppet-master Bush's wish to gain Russian acquiescence in the establishment of a chain of US bases in former Soviet Central Asia, and doesn't want to upset the apple-cart. The other Western leaders in Europe are occasionally more critical of Russia but this is always very low key. In absolute numbers the number of Chechens slaughtered is vastly out of proportion to the number of Russian civilians killed. Imagine Ariel Sharon multipled by 100. That's Putin!

As such, I consider his killing to be a casualty of war and not terrorism. He committed treason against Chechnya by collaborating with a brutal occupation. Blair and the other Western leaders think differently of course. Blair is no doubt motivated by his puppet-master Bush's wish to gain Russian acquiescence in the establishment of a chain of US bases in former Soviet Central Asia, and doesn't want to upset the apple-cart.

Britain & the US have refused the return of Ilyas Akhmadov and Akhmed Zakayev to Russian Territory. Does this really sound like they're bowing to Russian demands?

Russia is a world power. We're not talking about a pisshead dictator like Saddam. We're talking about a power with a military that is more that most european countries, has Nuclear/Chemical capabilities, and has the experience to use them effectively. And you want the other countries to aggravate Russia? From your other posts abt chechnya you seem to favour military intervention against Russia but fail to realise that the only feasible answer is political pressure, and while Chechen forces continue to act in a manner thats comparable with AQ, thats not going to happen.

In absolute numbers the number of Chechens slaughtered is vastly out of proportion to the number of Russian civilians killed.

So, if the number of Russians murdered by Chechen Terrorists equaled the dead the Chechnya you'd feel better? Ouch!

Imagine Ariel Sharon multipled by 100. That's Putin!

Imagine Arafat by 100, and I get the same image. /shrugs.

But rather than introducing the Palestinian/Israeli issue (Which is a thread all by itself), can you further your point as to why Blair is a hypocrite in reagards to AQ?

arcadegame2004

See my previous post above yours for evidence of Blair's hypocrisy. It is ironic that Western leaders, including Blair, met recently in France to celebrate the expulsion of Nazi Germany from France and the removal of the puppet Vichy Government, while at the same time condemning the killing of the Chechen version of Marshall Petain, Akhmad Kadyrov. Hypocritical even.

Of course we can't intervene militarily in Russia! But the West still has great leverage over Russia in the form of the loans it gives to Russia. These should be withheld until Russia ends the massacres, rapes and mutilation of the Chechen civilians, and allows the Red Cross and other aid agencies into Chechnya.

All Russia is being asked to do is to behave like humans instead of like sickos.

Britain & the US have refused the return of Ilyas Akhmadov and Akhmed Zakayev to Russian Territory. Does this really sound like they're bowing to Russian demands?

Britain and Russia are supposedly working on a UN resolution to prevent "terrorists" abusing asylum-procedures to escape justice. Given that Putin includes the entire Chechen resistance in his definition of "terrorist", I am concerned that the deportation of these two men is a possibility in the future. We should support the elected leaders of Chechnya (i.e. the former Chechen government) and not the Vichy-style puppets. Our politicians should not actively confer legitimacy on the puppets imposed by Moscow.

wheels of ire

Deleted User wrote:

Britain & the US have refused the return of Ilyas Akhmadov and Akhmed Zakayev to Russian Territory. Does this really sound like they're bowing to Russian demands?

Russia is a world power. We're not talking about a pisshead dictator like Saddam. We're talking about a power with a military that is more that most european countries, has Nuclear/Chemical capabilities, and has the experience to use them effectively. And you want the other countries to aggravate Russia? From your other posts abt chechnya you seem to favour military intervention against Russia but fail to realise that the only feasible answer is political pressure, and while Chechen forces continue to act in a manner thats comparable with AQ, thats not going to happen.



So, if the number of Russians murdered by Chechen Terrorists equaled the dead the Chechnya you'd feel better? Ouch!



Imagine Arafat by 100, and I get the same image. /shrugs.

But rather than introducing the Palestinian/Israeli issue (Which is a thread all by itself), can you further your point as to why Blair is a hypocrite in reagards to AQ?

Anyone care to try and give us an all-purpose definition which will cover 'Terroriism' ?
Given the French Maquis, Italian Partigiani, Mandela and Colins,Mandela and the ANC-both specifically condemned as terrorists by Thatcher- are amongst those accused, you'd think readers here might be more aware of the record of those making the accusation.

Were the Contras terrorists?
I only ask.

Of course we can't intervene militarily in Russia! But the West still has great leverage over Russia in the form of the loans it gives to Russia. These should be withheld until Russia ends the massacres, rapes and mutilation of the Chechen civilians, and allows the Red Cross and other aid agencies into Chechnya.

And again, I say that the only people in russia that would be the common Russian person. The Russian government, Putin especially is unlikely to be blackmailed into stopping his current campaign, since they themselves wouldn't be affected.

All Russia is being asked to do is to behave like humans instead of like sickos.

Can you please stop with the massive Generalisations? Its not Russia as a whole. Its a minority. A minority in the Russian Government, and a minority in the Russian Army.

Britain and Russia are supposedly working on a UN resolution to prevent "terrorists" abusing asylum-procedures to escape justice. Given that Putin includes the entire Chechen resistance in his definition of "terrorist", I am concerned that the deportation of these two men is a possibility in the future. We should support the elected leaders of Chechnya (i.e. the former Chechen government) and not the Vichy-style puppets. Our politicians should not actively confer legitimacy on the puppets imposed by Moscow.

Supposedly? Is that a rumour, or something they're actually doing? Regardless, I can't see it being a bad thing, since Britain would have huge involvement in determining whether they are terrorists. It won't be a pure Putin Decision.

Why should we support them? I haven't seen anything to say that they're any better people than the anyone else. I haven't seen them calling for peace. I haven't seen them having any true control over their own "resistance" groups. Regardless, our politicians, i.e. the Irish Government, shouldn't involve themselves with either side, beyond how it affects this country. They're incapable of running our own country, nevermind negotiating a peace between Chechnya and Russia.

I only ask.

It depends on who you ask. For myself, there's two types of terrorists. The name Governments apply to those that resist them (Its a handy way of turning world opinion against them), and those that I consider Terrorists.

I consider general terrorism as being the targeting of Civilian areas, with the intent of creating terror, and causing as much pain/suffering as possible. Examples of Terrorism for me, would be Hamas, Chechen "resistance" targeting Russian civilians (school), AQ sept 11, etc.

terrorism also includes the common wordage, collateral damage that governments love to use. US air strikes, Israeli attacks into Gaza etc. Government based Terrorism.

Thats my view. Alot of people will believe different.

arcadegame2004

I consider general terrorism as being the targeting of Civilian areas, with the intent of creating terror, and causing as much pain/suffering as possible. Examples of Terrorism for me, would be Hamas, Chechen "resistance" targeting Russian civilians (school), AQ sept 11, etc.

terrorism also includes the common wordage, collateral damage that governments love to use. US air strikes, Israeli attacks into Gaza etc. Government based Terrorism.

Under my posts you will see links to reports from Human Rights Watch on what is happening in Chechnya with regard to human rights. You have no criticism of that of course! Do you consider that to be terrorist Yes or No? Are we to hold a view of terrorism that regards resistance to what a nation considers foreign occupation as "terrorism"?

Can you please stop with the massive Generalisations? Its not Russia as a whole. Its a minority. A minority in the Russian Government, and a minority in the Russian Army.

It is NOT a minority of the Russian government. If it was, then why are the Western media banned from access to Chechnya without military supervision and under the conditions that they avoid talking to Chechen civilians? They are clearly hiding something. It is reminiscent to Milosevic when he banned the Western media from Kosovo before he turned Kosovo into a slaughterhouse. The widespread abuses of human rights are clearly organised on a scale that can only mean that they are state-sponsored.

You only have to look at how the disappearances of Chechens has now spread even to Moscow.

Also, the situation in Chechnya needs to be viewed in the context of what is happening generally in Russia under Putin. He has destroyed the free TV media by nationalising them (under the pretext of debts owed). Also a few days ago I say a program on BBC about a journalist from the Russian newspaper Gazeta who was murdered. He had been very critical of a businessman close to Putin, and what it revealed demonstrated the highly likelihood that the man arrested for the murder was being framed. The Russian secret service are also the likely culprit for the murder of a US journalist critical of the war in Chechnya. Two Chechens were arrested for the crime - no doubt a cynical attempt by Putin to further discredit the Chechens. Why would Chechens kill a journalist critical of Putin's war of extermination in Chechnya?

Why should we support them? I haven't seen anything to say that they're any better people than the anyone else. I haven't seen them calling for peace. I haven't seen them having any true control over their own "resistance" groups.

Britain would have used those arguments about the old IRA of 1919-21. We should be the last to fall for colonial propaganda given our own history. Aslan Maskhadov - elected President of Chechnya in 1997 in free and fair (unlike Putin's rigged elections) elections - has condemned the terror attack in Beslan and actually said that Shamil Basayev should be put on trial. He has constantly called for peace talks with the Russians but it goes in one ear and out the other. As far as I am concerned Beslan - while a terrible attrocity - is part of a tit-for-tat situation. If Russia is genuinely concerned about the lives of children then they should stop their mass executions of Chechen children.

gandalf

GET THIS BLOODY CHECHAN CRAP OFF THIS THREAD. LAST WARNING.

You hijack one more thread I will ban you permanently from Politics. Do you understand?

arcadegame2004

Gandalf I will if you want but I brought it up because it is relevant to the issue of whether or not Blair is a hypocrite.

sceptre

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Gandalf I will if you want but I brought it up because it is relevant to the issue of whether or not Blair is a hypocrite.

(a better answer for fairness for us all might have been "OK so")

I'm going to assume my fellow mods are now asleep so...

From wikipedia:

On May 9, 2004, an explosion ripped through VIP seating at a "Dinamo" stadium during a mid-morning Victory Day parade in the capital Grozny, killing Kadyrov, two of his bodyguards, the Chairman of the Chechen State Council, a Reuters journalist, and others, as many as a dozen. 56 others were wounded, including General Valery Baranov, the commander of Russian forces in Chechnya.

It was a big explosion. Now, whether I'd call it terrorism is neither here nor there so let's leave that aside and move on with the mod stuff.

All the other Chechen stuff was rather irrelevant to anythjing approximating relevance but then you knew that. Take the Chechen stuff to your Chechen thread. Or not. Do not pass Go, do not collect £200. That's a pretty serious "no more hijacking" warning from Mr Gandalf above. Heeding it now and forever might be good for your posting health as I'd rather not (as a mod) open, say a thread on the Irish presidency and see it turned into a Chechnya (or otherwise hijacked) thread - it might cause my internal logic unit to explode after pressing the nasty banning button. this isn't anyone's personal playground and I think Gandalf's shown some restraint. Blair's botox ops might be even more relevant than the stuff posted above.

my lips are sealed.