Over-paid by work

zag

My girlfriend was made redundant recently. She finished up on a Friday four weeks ago, and the following Friday received her statutory redundancy, plus whatever she was due. Plain and simple!

This week, she got a call from an accountant, telling her that she had been accidently paid 3,700 euro into her account, and this happened to all of the people who were let go. He asked her if she would mind giving it back.

My Question:
Is she legally obliged to give it back?

luckat

Of course she is. And morally. It's not her money, she didn't earn it.

seamus

There was a thread on something similar a while back, and someone posted up a link which said that yes, she is obliged to give it back.

The temptation is there to keep it and tell them to shove their redundancy up their arse, but if she's taken to court, she'll be taken to the cleaners too.

zag

luckat wrote:

Of course she is. And morally. It's not her money, she didn't earn it.

Morality doesn't really come into the equation, read on:

Nine people where let go, there was no warning. Boom, they were all sacked in one day, pack your things and leave. They got statutory. She had to relocate 100 miles to work for them in the first place.

Perhaps I am trying to justify it, but if it was me, I wouldn't have any qualms about taking money from a multi million dollar faceless corporation.

Figment

The thing is you can give it back any way you want.
10 euro a week untill its paid for example.

Kêrmêttê

Figment wrote:

The thing is you can give it back any way you want.
10 euro a week untill its paid for example.

I'd leave the money in a seperate investment account all by it's self and pay back 1 cent a month and keep all the interest that it's earning me just sitting there in my account

But then again... I have a bit of an evil streak in me

Lenny

Figment wrote:

The thing is you can give it back any way you want.
10 euro a week untill its paid for example.

That way is true, she could have spent it not knowing she was overpaid, she could have compaired her reduncy money to other people that worked and they got them same

impr0v

What the above people are saying makes sense, and if it's true then in that situation, I'd treat the money as a zero interest loan and set up a direct debit to pay them back slowly. Not quite as severe as the one cent per month, perhaps 50 euro or something. They can't really complain in that case.

Idbatterim

Yeah thats a great attiutude from some of you. im sure the company just closed or whatever for the laugh, im sure they loved making people redundant. Its not her money, imagine you made the mistake im sure you would like the money back. Do the decent thing and return it!

zag

Idbatterim wrote:

Yeah thats a great attiutude from some of you. im sure the company just closed or whatever for the laugh, im sure they loved making people redundant. Its not her money, imagine you made the mistake im sure you would like the money back. Do the decent thing and return it!

The company didn't close, they layed off people. I know they had their reasons, but what was their reason for not telling anyone? If they can afford to make such a cock-up, they can afford to be without it.

logic1

Idbatterim wrote:

Yeah thats a great attiutude from some of you. im sure the company just closed or whatever for the laugh, im sure they loved making people redundant. Its not her money, imagine you made the mistake im sure you would like the money back. Do the decent thing and return it!

You come across as some fresh faced kid who hasn't worked a day in his life.

Companies hire and fire for profit alone. They don't care about you only what you can do for them. Also it was never stated this company went into closure only that they made part of their workforce redundant.

They made her redundant with no notice? Surely breaking contractual and obligatory rights.

Keep the money and pay them back as little as possible for as long as possible.

I'd not discuss it with the company or the accountant but rather approach a financial advisor and see where exactly you stand.

.logic.

luckat

Zag, I know a company that refuses to pay its casuals sick pay or holiday pay, even though the law says it must. They have no recourse, the union reps are shruggy about it (they only really represent the staff, though the casuals pay union dues). The casuals have no recourse.

That still doesn't entitle them to steal from the company.

I'm very sorry to hear of this, but your girlfriend needs to pay the company back its money and go and find another job, with a company that will treat her honestly.

zag

logic1 wrote:

They made her redundant with no notice? Surely breaking contractual and obligatory rights.

I'd not discuss it with the company or the accountant but rather approach a financial advisor and see where exactly you stand.

.logic.

I totally agree. Large companies' attitudes to employees are as cold as stone. No matter how loyal or hardworking you are, it's about the Green at the end of the day.

There was no talk of the redundancy, no rumours, no warning. They came into work on a Friday, and were told basically that they no longer had a job, and were asked to leave. Accordingly, they were paid their notice, which, was decent I suppose.

zag

luckat wrote:

Zag, I know a company that refuses to pay its casuals sick pay or holiday pay, even though the law says it must. They have no recourse, the union reps are shruggy about it (they only really represent the staff, though the casuals pay union dues). The casuals have no recourse.

That still doesn't entitle them to steal from the company.

I'm very sorry to hear of this, but your girlfriend needs to pay the company back its money and go and find another job, with a company that will treat her honestly.

I know companies like the one you mentioned. You would think in this day and age..........you know what I am going to say!

She has been at several interviews, six in all, nationwide(I'm starting to sound like a Shaws representitive!). She is very employable, well educated etc., and in the Pharmaceuticals Industry, so she shouldn't have too much trouble finding work.

They would not miss 4 grand, in the grand scheme of things, I would not classify this as 'stealing'. She didn't intentionally seek out to take from them. They placed the money in her account. I feel sorry for the accountant that made the mistake, but I think they are in alot of trouble now anyway.

RE*AC*TOR

Having worked sometime in a bank, I'mnot aware that she's obliged to give it back. As her contract is essentially terminted with the company, she has no obligation to them. If I for example accidently lodged money into someones account, I could ask for it back but I would not be entitled. Unless it was the bank's mistake, but then my recourse would be with the bank.
However, her contract may still oblige her with regard to this amount, however, you would have to examine the contract to be certain. I would be relatively surprised if it went into that much detail.. but you never know.
Morally, i'd have no qualms keeping the money. She doesn't owe the company anything.

seamus

zag wrote:

Accordingly, they were paid their notice, which, was decent I suppose.

That's the law.

zag

seamus wrote:

That's the law.

No, what I mean is, they didn't have to work their notice.

seamus

zag wrote:

No, what I mean is, they didn't have to work their notice.

Yep, that's the law. The company has the right to waive notice in lieu of payment for that notice. They probably thought it less of a risk to just let them go, instead of having ten disgruntled employees hanging around for a month.

Praetorian

I was overpaid last year and I didn't realise it because of mistakes on my pay slips, it absolutely sickened me to have to pay the money back, but I did (I paid it all back in one lump sum). At the end of the day, it was the morally correct thing to do, and incidentally I think it was one of the reasons I got a more than fair raise a month later.

I think she should pay the money back in instalments she can afford. If she doesn't she could easily be brought to court, and she would lose.

zag

Praetorian wrote:

I was overpaid last year and I didn't realise it because of mistakes on my pay slips, it absolutely sickened me to have to pay the money back, but I did (I paid it all back in one lump sum). At the end of the day, it was the morally correct thing to do, and incidentally I think it was one of the reasons I got a more than fair raise a month later.

I think she should pay the money back in instalments she can afford. If she doesn't she could easily be brought to court, and she would lose.

Yep, but you were still working for your company. She is not. She has no moral or otherwise obligation to them, albeit she may contractually.

HashSlinging

Recommend going to your local MABS advisor. They will work on her behalf, best thing to do is pay them back 10 a week like what has been mentioned already.

www.mabs.ie

ixoy

luckat wrote:

Zag, I know a company that refuses to pay its casuals sick pay or holiday pay, even though the law says it must.

No it doesn't. From a government site:

In general the matter of sick pay and sick leave is not covered under employment rights legislation. Policy on sick pay and sick leave in individual companies may be decided by the employer and agreed as part of the employee's terms and conditions of employment or may be set out through collective agreements negotiated between employers and employee representatives.
The Terms of Employment Acts 1994 and 2001 provide that an employer is obliged to provide an employee with a written statement of terms of employment within 2 months of the commencement of employment. The written statement of terms of employment must include information on the terms or conditions relating to incapacity for work due to sickness or injury.

If it's not in their terms of employment, they're entitled to zilch.

As to the matter at hand, the company - bastards as they are - have done nothing illegal. I say you should pay it back but, as suggested, at a small fixed rate. Be interesting to see who is in the right here, legally.

okidoki987

You have 3 choices
(A) Repay in full now.
(B) Repay a tenner a month or whatever to cause the company headaches
with the admin
(C) Let them sing for it.
Which one are you?
I'd be a (B).

luckat

ixoy, I beg to disagree. From another government site:

(b) Holiday Entitlement
The holiday entitlement of a part-time employee is related to the
holiday entitlement of comparable full-time employee, subject to the
minimum legal entitlements under the Organisation of Working Time
Act 1997.
9
Under the Organisation of Working Time Act 1997 a part-time
employee’s minimum annual leave entitlement is
(i) 4 working weeks in a leave year in which a part-time
employee works at least 1365 hours (unless it is a leave
year in which he/she changes employment)
(ii) 1/3 of a working week per calendar month that the part-time
employee works at least 117 hours
(iii) 8% of the hours worked in a leave year subject to a
maximum of 4 working weeks. These provisions have not
been altered by the terms of the Protection of Employees
(Part-Time Work) Act 2001.

ixoy

luckat wrote:

ixoy, I beg to disagree.

Whoops! I was only referrring to sick pay. Meant to say that they're not entitled to paid sick leave by law. You're entitled to holiday leave as you say.

luckat

ixoy I think the same site says sick pay is also an entitlement for casuals, pro rata with staff.

I have a vague feeling that new EU legislation has changed this in the last 6 months or so.

But anyway it's academic - since there's no way for a casual to enforce the law, it's just there on the statute books like Christmas trimmings. From the point of view of casual workers, there's nowhere they can go for help without endangering their security in work, such as it is.

damnyanks

From my time working in a bank we were told its up to the customer if they wish to give it back or not. Usually when it happens its a business / wage transaction and the person won't want to piss off the person paying out.

But they were made redundent so maybe its safe to keep it

Idbatterim

And what about the next job if she goes looking for references ect, the could say screw three grand, and paint a bad picture of her, plus im sure the next employer wont fancy having a thief on board!

zt

luckat wrote:

Of course she is. And morally. It's not her money, she didn't earn it.

Absolutely right.

If you were laid off would you steal a company car or computer on your way out the door. It is exactly the same thing.

Hixfunk

Is this not similar to the bank giving you extra money and you withdrawing. I know for a fact you have to give back any extra cash that is deposited to your account, even if you have spent it. There is no piece-meal deposits, it is one lump sum given. Similarly, if you have been alerted by the company that they have given you an excessive amount of money, then you are legally obliged to return it. It is up to them if they wish to prosecute for theft, which a court will uphold as you knowingly kept the monies.

logic1

Hixfunk wrote:

Is this not similar to the bank giving you extra money and you withdrawing. I know for a fact you have to give back any extra cash that is deposited to your account, even if you have spent it. There is no piece-meal deposits, it is one lump sum given. Similarly, if you have been alerted by the company that they have given you an excessive amount of money, then you are legally obliged to return it. It is up to them if they wish to prosecute for theft, which a court will uphold as you knowingly kept the monies.

You haven't a clue whether she's legally obliged to return it or not so stop talking out your arse.

And as for the theft reference, in that case I can go around my neighbours, throw twenty euro through their letterbox and then accuse them of stealing it? Give me a break.

.logic.

Hobbes

If she didn't earn it, then legally she should return it. Although she could get away by dragging it out (eg. asking for details if it is not apparent its not hers).

Not sure what company it is, but I do know IBM for example have a habit of overpaying people that leave/are let go and come looking for the money back later (sometimes months later).

And as for the theft reference, in that case I can go around my neighbours, throw twenty euro through their letterbox and then accuse them of stealing it? Give me a break.

What if you put it into their letterbox by accident, and then you ask for it back and they refuse?

Borzoi

seamus wrote:

There was a thread on something similar a while back, and someone posted up a link which said that yes, she is obliged to give it back.

The temptation is there to keep it and tell them to shove their redundancy up their arse, but if she's taken to court, she'll be taken to the cleaners too.

Right as ever - even though I can't remember the thread either.

The GF has a quasi-contractual obligation to return the money. It's not hers, she knows it's only there as a legitimate mistake. The is obliged to return it.

Unfortunately 'finders keepers' isn't applicable

zag

Idbatterim wrote:

And what about the next job if she goes looking for references ect, the could say screw three grand, and paint a bad picture of her, plus im sure the next employer wont fancy having a thief on board!

Ok, the person who worked directly over her, her boss, was let go aswell. She is not giving the money back. So I don't think her reference is going to be bad, but point taken.

Re: Having a thief on board: As logic says below, if he was to shove 20 euros through his neighbours letter box, and then brand them a thief...eh..no.

One thing I forgot to mention, is that for the past six months, the company was developing a drug, so to meet the deadline, my GF and her workmates were doing savage overtime. The company did say that they would compensate at the time, but never did, even when it came to the redundancy package. So, in my eyes, this is justice. Screw all that morally correct sh*te ye keep spouting.

logic1

Hobbes wrote:

If she didn't earn it, then legally she should return it.

Quote the section of Law that states this.

Not sure what company it is, but I do know IBM for example have a habit of overpaying people that leave/are let go and come looking for the money back later (sometimes months later).

Do they always get it back?

What if you put it into their letterbox by accident, and then you ask for it back and they refuse?

Then it's your fault for being an idiot.

.logic.

zt

Without a crystal ball, it is difficult to guess what the company will do. However, if they do take a legal action this will be well documented in the future.

Your girlfriend could find it very difficult to find a job in the future if this happens. We all know that lots of companies share informal 'references' about past employees. A story about a court case would be juicy enough to do the rounds for years.

I know that you might be able to justify this now, but you should really consider what happens in the future.

Imagine going to an inteview in ten years time for a senior position and this incident raising its ugly head. Worse again, imagine the potential employer knows half the story but doesn't ask for your girlfriends version.

As for the element of revenge on a s***ty employer, sometimes the best option is just to be a better person.

zag wrote:

Ok, the person who worked directly over her, her boss, was let go aswell. She is not giving the money back. So I don't think her reference is going to be bad, but point taken.

Re: Having a thief on board: As logic says below, if he was to shove 20 euros through his neighbours letter box, and then brand them a thief...eh..no.

One thing I forgot to mention, is that for the past six months, the company was developing a drug, so to meet the deadline, my GF and her workmates were doing savage overtime. The company did say that they would compensate at the time, but never did, even when it came to the redundancy package. So, in my eyes, this is justice. Screw all that morally correct sh*te ye keep spouting.

delly

Why not tell the company she has emigrated to Austrailia because she got an unknown deposit in her bank, and in order to make the redundency a little easier, she has made a new start in the outback where phones and/or communication devices are not available.

Sorted.

meepmeep

I think she might have got away with it if the accountant hadn't rang her and asked her to pay it back. She could have pleaded ignorance otherwise (which I know is not an excuse but she might have got away with it).

It sounds like they let quite a few people go and if they got overpaid by €3700 each then I would think the company will pull out all the stops to get it back. If they're a small(ish) company they are not gonna let that kinda money go, and if they're a large company (more likely) then I am sure they have lawyers on hand to deal with it.

She should give it back (as hard as thats gonna be), and not because I think its the moral thing to do, but because I think its gonna be too much hassle to keep it. If you keep it, ye'll just be waiting for the phone call or the letter to tell ya they are suing her to give it back. I'd rather have the peace of mind meself.

Hobbes

logic1 wrote:

Quote the section of Law that states this.

If money is accidently put into your account you don't magically own it.

Now if the money was part of her final settlement and it wasn't broken out in details that it wasn't hers then she can certainly ask for more details and drag it out, but the final point is that if she doesn't own the money it doesn't automatically become yours.

Do they always get it back?

Yes.

Victor

She is morally and legally responsible for giving it back.

Now, having said that, don't rush to give it back.

(a) she should make sure she has the full calculations of redundancy payment, payment in lieu of notice, pay, holiday pay, etc. and that she has been paid in full.

(b) she should make the point "was that not the money we were promised for the overtime"?

(c) that she has a glowing reference in her hand.

(d) she gets to keep, say, 5% for the fuss / paperwork / finders fee.