NTL Problem!

ntlbell

At last, ntl users with the same issue.

My story,

I only noticed the problem Monday just gone but it's probably been there longer. Like everyone else I've had the whole "it's not us it's you" "it's not us it's the site your trying"

Eventually after numerous calls I got a fairly clued in guy on the phone who was going to actually do something about it, nothing happened. so I mailed my traces, pings etc from when it's good between 9-6 and when it's bad.

the majority of the traces are to machines I normally avg about 25ms to, located in ireland but connected to a uk provider, plus usuall suspects ftp.heanet.ie, ftp.esat.net.

No response from any of my mails so I lost my top today and eventually got to a supervisor type (non technical) who gave me their name and word I'd get a call on Monday, (We'll see)

Tonight and all day today pings have been fine lo latency high download speeds, like everythings back to normal.

I did notice during the week on the ntl server status for the uk work being carried out in various areas in the uk which effected the UBR's I was having problems with mostly in leeds and Gildford.

It looks like those tickets are resolved and were open the first night I noticed the problem.

So fingers crossed all is well, I'm not hopefull tho.

Is everyone _still_ having problems ?

If so we need to just constantly hammer the support line and straight away ask to go over the random technicians head to someone more technical or senior and has access to the ntl network.

ntlbell

Muck wrote:

Seamy.

EVERY PING IN THS THREAD is to Jolt . A few servers in Telehouse in London do not constitute " everywhere outside ireland" as you described it and prove fúck all bar what I stated above and will repeat below.

Forget pings, the traceroutes give the correct information. When your pings are crap there is a concurrent slowdown at or around the peering point between NTL and Nildram. Nildram were taken over recently and will be up in the air when it comes to ordering extra capacity if they are maxing out , thats bad news if this is a nightly problem .

I won't bother with a Peering 101 lesson but the problem IS a Joint NTL and Nildram one and need to be sorted out between them . Jolt may not be aware of it .....although they damn well should be. Ask them if they are having problems with Nildram .


M

The servers I connet to are on level3 but located in dublin I don't go near any Nildram UBR's on route so I really don't think it's anything to do with them,

Traces on this thread maybe just jolt, but the traces i sent to NTL none of them were jolt none of them went near a Nildram UBR and all had the same problems.

lee-bb-b-so-700-0.inet.ntl.com and gfd-bb-b-so-500-0.inet.ntl.com was the cause of most of my issues.

RicardoSmith

C:\>tracert www.jolt.co.uk

Tracing route to clarity.jolt.co.uk [195.149.21.11]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 48 ms 7 ms 7 ms 10.135.103.254
2 35 ms 8 ms 37 ms host82-9-147-25.not-set-yet.ntli.net[82.9.147.25]
3 9 ms 9 ms 8 ms dub-core-b-pos1100.inet.ntl.com [62.254.96.201]
4 14 ms 13 ms 30 ms lee-bb-b-atm010-225.inet.ntl.com [62.253.187.54]
5 18 ms 16 ms 16 ms lee-bb-a-ae0-0.inet.ntl.com [62.253.187.185]
6 27 ms 20 ms 16 ms nth-bb-b-so-000-0.inet.ntl.com [62.253.185.101]
7 28 ms 22 ms 32 ms pop-bb-a-so-100-0.inet.ntl.com [213.105.172.14]
8 54 ms 29 ms 46 ms tele-ic-2-so-000-0.inet.ntl.com [62.253.185.86]
9 20 ms 34 ms 52 ms lon1-10.nildram.net [213.208.106.169]
10 24 ms 23 ms 19 ms lon1-9.nildram.net [195.149.20.130]
11 19 ms 20 ms 58 ms jolt-gw.nildram.net [195.149.20.126]
12 47 ms 48 ms 46 ms clarity.jolt.co.uk [195.149.21.11]

Trace complete.

C:\>

MickFarr

Muck wrote:

Seamy.

EVERY PING IN THS THREAD is to Jolt .
M

Thats what I asked for in the first post but if you check out my posts I give examples of bad pings to www.broadbandspeedtest.co.uk.

https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/21407/7383.JPG

wheres Nildram in that ? but you can see the bad ping are NTLs fault !!!

MickFarr

Here's a tracert using BT broadband
There's no problem for BT Broadband user with Nildram here. Thats because there isn't aproblem with Nildram Muck its with NTL.

Look closer at the tracerts and you can see it starts with NTL not anyone else in any of the posts !!


C:\Documents and Settings\Iain>tracert www.jolt.co.uk

Tracing route to clarity.jolt.co.uk [195.149.21.11]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 17 ms 17 ms 17 ms 217.47.207.122
2 17 ms 16 ms 16 ms 217.47.207.82
3 16 ms 17 ms 17 ms core2-pos7-0.edinburgh.ukcore.bt.net [62.6.199.209]
4 27 ms 25 ms 24 ms core2-pos13-0.birmingham.ukcore.bt.net [62.6.196.97]
5 28 ms 27 ms 27 ms core2-pos15-1.reading.ukcore.bt.net [194.74.16.234]
6 29 ms 30 ms 29 ms core2-pos9-0.ilford.ukcore.bt.net [194.74.65.193]
7 31 ms 29 ms 29 ms 194.74.65.198
8 30 ms 29 ms 29 ms lon1-10.nildram.net [195.66.226.59]
9 30 ms 29 ms 31 ms lon1-9.nildram.net [195.149.20.130]
10 30 ms 30 ms 30 ms jolt-gw.nildram.net [195.149.20.126]
11 30 ms 30 ms 30 ms clarity.jolt.co.uk [195.149.21.11]

Trace complete.

C:\Documents and Settings\Iain>

spongebob

Mick .

Thats a perfect BT trace all right. It seems to hit the same Nildram peering router .

Is there any chance you can get the traces done AT THE SAME TIME which is what you need to prove the point. Then post all the traces, carried out simulateously or near simultaneosuly in the thread.

The rationale is simple, the NTL problems experienced occur in the UK and may be replicated widely across the entire NTL user base . If so the pressure can be put on NTL to fix it .

M

M

spongebob

MickFarr wrote:

wheres Nildram in that ? but you can see the bad ping are NTLs fault !!!

Its very difficult to read that large graphic but it appears to be a congested NTL core router in Leeds / Nottingham .

Entirely NTL's fault that one because the spike occurs before the peering point with someone in Nottingham .

As this is not on the NTL route to Nildram it is a separate issue and should not be lumped in with the Nildram problems as the faults/fixes may be escalated and handled by different teams.

M

MickFarr

Muck

No problem Muck. I can't do that at the moment as I'm up North but will do a tracert test using NTL, LEAP and BT broadband tomorrow.

Mick

ntlbell

Muck do you work for NTL?

Today I decided to bypass the usuall monkeys in NTL and go through the buisness NOC via my job.

They knew about the problem from day 1, the work was announced on the server status page, and as far as they can see the problem is resolved and will be watched closley.

Now why couldn't this communication go through to the monkeys in waterford?

shams.

spongebob

ntlbell wrote:

Muck do you work for NTL?

No

Now why couldn't this communication go through to the monkeys in waterford?

That would require organisation. As there is no second line support in Ireland I told people to make noise in England, where to such as NTLHELL , how and what to report.

The reason I commented on how to interpret Traceroutes in the first place was that I used to have to collect data from the Esat X centre in Dublin over a link from Sprint that suffered large scale packet loss (not even timeouts) on regular occasions.

As it was a Peering Link not a transit problem Sprint blamed ESAT and yadda yadda. I finally found that by telling some large ESAT customers such as Ryanair that their sites were inaccesible from the states that something was done about it. Naturally I included traceroutes .

They listened to Ryanair when they would never have listened to me. Did anyone get the impression that Guildford listens to Waterford ?

M

dub45

ntlbell wrote:

Muck do you work for NTL?

Today I decided to bypass the usuall monkeys in NTL and go through the buisness NOC via my job.

They knew about the problem from day 1, the work was announced on the server status page, and as far as they can see the problem is resolved and will be watched closley.

Now why couldn't this communication go through to the monkeys in waterford?

shams.

Communication within NTL seems to be appalling. One of the reasons I would have doubts about getting bb from NTL when it eventually comes down my street is the poor customer service they provide. I know that up to now from reading posts here that customer service for their bb seems to have been pretty good but as they take on more and more customers for bb I wonder will the bb service end up exactly like the tv service as regards customer service.

Recently I was getting a weak signal on the couple of TV points I have from them and I confirmed with a neighbour their signal was also weak. I rang NTL and explained the problem. The girl I spoke to was absolutely admamant they would have to do a house visit to sort out the problem. I pointed out that I would have to take time off work for this, that it would be a waste of time for both themselves and me as it was clearly nothing to do with my set up.

She refused to progress the matter further unless I agreed to set up an appointment.

Later I was able to find out that there was a general problem in the area and that NTL were aware of it and subsequently fixed it.

This is by no means the first time that I have found examples of a lack of communication with NTL. You would think though that it would be an absolute priority to keep the call centers up to date even if they are not too worried about wasting their customers time - unnecessary call outs are surely costly for NTL?

ntlbell

we're off again,

back to the usuall ****

2 11 ms 8 ms 8 ms 10.135.23.254
3 10 ms 11 ms 7 ms host82-9-146-5.not-set-yet.ntli.net [82.9.146.5]

4 9 ms 9 ms 8 ms dub-core-a-pos1100.inet.ntl.com [62.254.96.137]

5 11 ms 13 ms 10 ms dub-core-b-fa000.inet.ntl.com [62.254.96.2]
6 125 ms 126 ms 124 ms lee-bb-b-atm010-225.inet.ntl.com [62.253.187.54]

7 88 ms 101 ms 102 ms lee-bb-a-ae0-0.inet.ntl.com [62.253.187.185]

ntlbell

I hate using jolt as an example but.

20.11pm (REAL ISP)

traceroute to jolt.co.uk (195.149.21.11), 64 hops max, 40 byte packets
1 fw-dub (83.245.10.33) 0.179 ms 0.165 ms 0.156 ms
2 lvl3gw.thn.packetexchange.net (212.187.197.193) 19.695 ms 13.129 ms 15.243 ms
3 lon1-9.nildram.net (195.66.224.59) 18.028 ms 17.944 ms 13.361 ms
4 jolt-gw.nildram.net (195.149.20.126) 14.462 ms 13.870 ms 13.858 ms
5 clarity.jolt.co.uk (195.149.21.11) 14.045 ms 18.369 ms 18.564 ms


20.12pm (NTL)

traceroute to jolt.co.uk (195.149.21.11), 64 hops max, 40 byte packets
1 10.135.23.254 (10.135.23.254) 8.503 ms 11.195 ms 7.300 ms
2 host82-9-146-5.not-set-yet.ntli.net (82.9.146.5) 12.626 ms 7.855 ms 9.485 ms
3 dub-core-a-pos1100.inet.ntl.com (62.254.96.137) 9.033 ms 8.089 ms 12.915 ms
4 dub-core-b-fa000.inet.ntl.com (62.254.96.2) 10.435 ms 10.126 ms 11.969 ms
5 lee-bb-b-atm010-225.inet.ntl.com (62.253.187.54) 107.333 ms 116.605 ms 130.176 ms
6 lee-bb-a-ae0-0.inet.ntl.com (62.253.187.185) 128.565 ms 143.997 ms 134.687 ms
7 nth-bb-b-so-000-0.inet.ntl.com (62.253.185.101) 135.906 ms 137.954 ms 140.846 ms
8 pop-bb-a-so-100-0.inet.ntl.com (213.105.172.14) 135.564 ms 125.350 ms 135.410 ms
9 tele-ic-2-so-000-0.inet.ntl.com (62.253.185.86) 162.136 ms 148.735 ms 139.306 ms
10 lon1-10.nildram.net (213.208.106.169) 142.899 ms 132.944 ms 123.268 ms
11 lon1-9.nildram.net (195.149.20.130) 108.399 ms 120.508 ms 114.924 ms
12 jolt-gw.nildram.net (195.149.20.126) 127.015 ms 132.747 ms 154.970 ms
13 clarity.jolt.co.uk (195.149.21.11) 146.289 ms 145.253 ms *

bbc for good measure so we're clear on the jolt issue

REAL ISP
traceroute to www.bbc.net.uk (212.58.224.115), 64 hops max, 40 byte packets
1 lvl3gw.thn.packetexchange.net (212.187.197.193) 13.623 ms 15.123 ms 14.008 ms
2 rt-linx-a.thdo.bbc.co.uk (195.66.224.103) 13.793 ms 14.028 ms 13.586 ms
3 212.58.238.153 (212.58.238.153) 13.653 ms 17.612 ms 14.565 ms
4 www15.thdo.bbc.co.uk (212.58.224.115) 14.318 ms 14.793 ms 15.066 ms


POXY NTL

traceroute to www.bbc.net.uk (212.58.224.115), 64 hops max, 40 byte packets
1 10.135.23.254 (10.135.23.254) 9.737 ms 7.863 ms 7.657 ms
2 host82-9-146-5.not-set-yet.ntli.net (82.9.146.5) 10.793 ms 8.658 ms 10.437 ms
3 dub-core-a-pos1100.inet.ntl.com (62.254.96.137) 32.433 ms 10.181 ms 7.583 ms
4 dub-core-b-fa000.inet.ntl.com (62.254.96.2) 10.705 ms 13.153 ms 10.884 ms
5 lee-bb-b-atm010-227.inet.ntl.com (62.253.188.90) 123.445 ms 139.717 ms 134.582 ms
6 lee-bb-a-ae0-0.inet.ntl.com (62.253.187.185) 127.488 ms 150.089 ms 120.486 ms
7 nth-bb-b-so-000-0.inet.ntl.com (62.253.185.101) 116.886 ms 122.291 ms 128.447 ms
8 pop-bb-a-so-100-0.inet.ntl.com (213.105.172.14) 126.752 ms 143.769 ms 130.931 ms
9 tele-ic-2-so-000-0.inet.ntl.com (62.253.185.86) 151.020 ms 145.301 ms 143.463 ms
10 212.58.239.217 (212.58.239.217) 123.926 ms 131.531 ms 137.192 ms
11 212.58.238.153 (212.58.238.153) 138.187 ms 122.986 ms 146.232 ms
12 www15.thdo.bbc.co.uk (212.58.224.115) 130.239 ms 120.691 ms 130.916 ms

Töpher

Aye, it is terrilbe at the moment.
I actually got hold of quite a helpful guy on the helpline yesterday. He said one of the ISP's they go thru in the UK messed something up, and that NTL have resorted whatever they have to do and it should be settled down shortly. And indeed it was, everything was back to being brilliant. He tested everythign while I was on the phone and was yielding the same results as I was here. Went out last night, just home now and it's back to being muck again. Really quite píssed off about this!

[Edit] And for the record, it aint just jolt (obviously ), here's traceroute to 4k-gaming:

Microsoft Windows XP [Version 5.1.2600]
(C) Copyright 1985-2001 Microsoft Corp.

C:\tracert 4k-gaming.com

Tracing route to 4k-gaming.com [213.230.203.70]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 7 ms 7 ms 9 ms 10.135.63.254
2 8 ms 7 ms 10 ms host82-9-146-9.not-set-yet.ntli.net [82.9.146.9]

3 12 ms 9 ms 9 ms dub-core-a-pos1100.inet.ntl.com [62.254.96.137]

4 13 ms 8 ms 10 ms dub-core-b-fa000.inet.ntl.com [62.254.96.2]
5 105 ms 104 ms 112 ms lee-bb-b-atm010-225.inet.ntl.com [62.253.187.54]

6 132 ms 134 ms 142 ms ren-bb-a-so-000-0.inet.ntl.com [62.253.185.161]

7 * 153 ms 131 ms bre-bb-b-so-200-0.inet.ntl.com [62.253.185.166]

8 142 ms 138 ms 138 ms bre-bb-a-ae0-0.inet.ntl.com [213.105.172.86]
9 158 ms 148 ms 149 ms redb-ic-1-so-010-0.inet.ntl.com [62.253.188.106]

10 333 ms 947 ms 1087 ms 999.fe0-1.rt0.thdo.woaf.net [217.79.160.51]
11 151 ms 152 ms 149 ms 213.230.194.36
12 133 ms 135 ms 148 ms web6.000025.net [213.230.203.70]

Trace complete.

Ripwave

dub45 wrote:

You would think though that it would be an absolute priority to keep the call centers up to date

Eircom don't do this. UTV don't do this. IBB don't do this. Why would NTL be any different?

ntlbell

Ripwave wrote:

Eircom don't do this. UTV don't do this. IBB don't do this. Why would NTL be any different?

Yeh, because sending an email can be a very complicated task.

dub45

Ripwave wrote:

Eircom don't do this. UTV don't do this. IBB don't do this. Why would NTL be any different?

I cant belive you are serious in asking that question.

Ripwave

dub45 wrote:

I cant belive you are serious in asking that question.

Okay, I didn't insert a sarcasm emoticon, but why would you expect NTL to be any better at customer service and internal communications than eircom, IBB or UTV?

ntlbell

Ripwave wrote:

Okay, I didn't insert a sarcasm emoticon, but why would you expect NTL to be any better at customer service and internal communications than eircom, IBB or UTV?

To be fair and I know they're not mentioned above and apart from the whole capping fiasco, netsource as far as i can see are exceptional when it comes to customer support.

IBB although never dealt with them for myself but on behalf of others, again seem to to go way beyond the call of duty for customer support and most of the phone monkeys seem to be fairly well clued in.

eircom well, they're eircom.

dub45

Ripwave wrote:

Okay, I didn't insert a sarcasm emoticon, but why would you expect NTL to be any better at customer service and internal communications than eircom, IBB or UTV?

And I will repeat exactly what I posted to your last question: I can`t belive you are serious in asking that question.

But anyways some reasons:

It would potentially give them a competitive advantage.

It would save them money (as in the case I instanced a reduction unnecessary call outs)

It would certainly enhance their reputation as in posts to boards might read 'I am with NTL and when I phone them they are are always up to date with what is going on'

It would possibly improve the internal working atmosphere in NTL - good communication has that potential - as in it lessens the 'nobody tell us whats going on around here"

It would certainly lessen customer frustration.

Ripwave

dub45 wrote:

And I will repeat exactly what I posted to your last question: I can`t belive you are serious in asking that question.

But anyways some reasons:

It would potentially give them a competitive advantage.

It would save them money (as in the case I instanced a reduction unnecessary call outs)

It would certainly enhance their reputation as in posts to boards might read 'I am with NTL and when I phone them they are are always up to date with what is going on'

It would possibly improve the internal working atmosphere in NTL - good communication has that potential - as in it lessens the 'nobody tell us whats going on around here"

It would certainly lessen customer frustration.

Do any of those reasons apply exclusively to NTL? Again, I ask, why would you expect NTL to be any better at customer service and internal communications than eircom, IBB or UTV? That's not why should they be better at it than they are now, but why should they be better at it than anyone else in that line of business?

MickFarr

If you want to see how bad it is to all four corners of the globe download Dan Elwells broadband tester from www.broadbandspeedtest.net. That will do ping tests to everywhere.

Thats what I use to test NTL.

Ripwave

ntlbell wrote:

To be fair and I know they're not mentioned above and apart from the whole capping fiasco, netsource as far as i can see are exceptional when it comes to customer support.

Netsources customer base is numbered in the hundreds, not the thousands, and they pay considerably more, per head, than the customers of any of the other mentioned companies. They aren't competing for the same market as UTV, NTL or IBB (or IOL/ESAT, for that matter, but I haven't heard much about their tech support - their Billing Dept is infamous for their ineptitude, and the 3-10 week delays in signing up new customers don't bode too well, though).

IBB although never dealt with them for myself but on behalf of others, again seem to to go way beyond the call of duty for customer support and most of the phone monkeys seem to be fairly well clued in.

The people answering the phones aren't bad at acknowledging known problems, but actually sorting out end end users poor performance problems? You can't be serious! People here have complained about waiting weeks to get a Ripwave unit (you know, the zero-install, just plug it in and go wireless solution) actually enabled by IBB, even after it's been delivered.

None of this excuses NTLs ineptitude - but you'd swear from some of the comments here that there was something special about NTL in this regard. There isn't.

dub45

Ripwave wrote:

Do any of those reasons apply exclusively to NTL? Again, I ask, why would you expect NTL to be any better at customer service and internal communications than eircom, IBB or UTV? That's not why should they be better at it tahn they are now, but why should they be better at it than anyone else in that line of business?

Why not expect them to be good at customers support? And besides we have no proof as to how they compare to any of the others anyways!

Ripwave

dub45 wrote:

Why not expect them to be good at customers support?

I didn't ask why you should expect them to be good at cuistomer support. I asked why you expected them to be better at it than eircom, UTV or IBB.

dub45

Ripwave wrote:

I didn't ask why you should expect them to be good at cuistomer support. I asked why you expected them to be better at it than eircom, UTV or IBB.

I dont expect them to be better than any of those and whether or not they have good customer support was brought into the thread by you - for what reason I dont particularly know as I would have thought that most board posters would be urging isps to have excellent customer support.

I have no direct experience of Eircom or IBB to compare them with anyone else. And I am not aware of any surveys that might provide information to allow a comparison.

I think it is perfectly reasonable to expect that any Company with an operations area will keep its call center or whatever section of the Company which has contact with its customers up to date on any developments which may impact on those customers.

spongebob

ntlbell wrote:

4 dub-core-b-fa000.inet.ntl.com (62.254.96.2) 10.435 ms 10.126 ms 11.969 ms
5 lee-bb-b-atm010-225.inet.ntl.com (62.253.187.54) 107.333 ms 116.605 ms 130.176 ms

Whoops. That indicates that their Link From Dublin to Leeds was totally maxed out at the time. I thought they went via Manchester so maybe thats down and the Leeds link is a backup.

Keep an eye on those traceroutes for the next few nights.

M

Ripwave

dub45 wrote:

I think it is perfectly reasonable to expect that any Company with an operations area will keep its call center or whatever section of the Company which has contact with its customers up to date on any developments which may impact on those customers.

It might well be perfectly reasonable to expect that - but the reality is that it's entirely unrealistic to expect it, at least in Ireland today.

There was a letter from someone on the radio this morning, outlining the run around he was given by his bank when he tried to lodge money to his credit card before he went on holidays, so that he could use his credit card to withdraw money without racking up interest charges, and how every member of the Banks counter staff that he dealt with told him something different, and contradicted the staff on the 24 hour banking telephone line that he was instructed to call.

There's nothing special about NTL in this regard, unfortunately.

ntlbell

Ripwave wrote:

Netsources customer base is numbered in the hundreds, not the thousands, and they pay considerably more, per head, than the customers of any of the other mentioned companies. They aren't competing for the same market as UTV, NTL or IBB (or IOL/ESAT, for that matter, but I haven't heard much about their tech support - their Billing Dept is infamous for their ineptitude, and the 3-10 week delays in signing up new customers don't bode too well, though).
The people answering the phones aren't bad at acknowledging known problems, but actually sorting out end end users poor performance problems? You can't be serious! People here have complained about waiting weeks to get a Ripwave unit (you know, the zero-install, just plug it in and go wireless solution) actually enabled by IBB, even after it's been delivered.

None of this excuses NTLs ineptitude - but you'd swear from some of the comments here that there was something special about NTL in this regard. There isn't.

I can only judge like anyone else on my own dealings with these companies.

I also have to say as bad as NTL are on this issue, with me personally I've had very little to complain about the service in the past, I've had very few issues in over 3 years with them and when I did they were fixed promptly.

But also at that time the support was in Wales and the techincal staff were very very good, and maybe tl's and senior staff in the uk are just slightly more clued in i dunno.

I think the point here is, it's not hard for companies to have better internal communications. so why shouldn't they all be excellent in customer services, why shouldn't we expect top notch support, it's not a difficult thing to do.

ntlbell

After another long hard day struggling with NTL, once again (apparently) work was carried out today and completed at 1.30pm

they said they can't be sure the issue is resolved untill the peak traffic hits tonight, I usually notice about 7-730pm

fingers crossed again.