Are Fianna Fail on drugs.

ionapaul

I believe Ireland may be the only country in the world with such a restricture tax on credit cards. Absolutely ludicrous. Not even stopping us borrowing ourselves into trouble...

therecklessone

ionapaul wrote:

I believe Ireland may be the only country in the world with such a restricture tax on credit cards. Absolutely ludicrous. Not even stopping us borrowing ourselves into trouble...

Maybe they should remove the €40 tax and replace it with a credit card debt tax?

seamus

therecklessone wrote:

Maybe they should remove the €40 tax and replace it with a credit card debt tax?

% tax on credit cards I think is more reasonable. You get taxed depending on your credit limit. I mentioned this before, as the sheer madness of the situation - I had a student credit card, €350 limit. €40 taxed on this was > 10% of my limit, really putting me in hassle. As a student, €40 is big, particularly if you end up paying interest on it. Say they taxed you 0.5% of your limit. For the student card, that's €1.75. Perfect, giving students leeway where they need it most - in their pockets. For someone with a €20,000 limit, that works out to €100. Sounds like a lot, but €20,000 is a huge limit to have on a credit card. If you need/can afford that kind of credit for day-to-day use, €100 is nothing to you.

Of course this would all depend on credit card companies actually confirming with people that they want their limit changed. After I was hugging my limit for a while, the credit card company decided they'd be nice and almost doubled my limit, without consulting me at all. First confirmation I got was when the new limit was displayed on my bill. :rolleyes:

clearz

I got my credit card in March. I could not believe it when a week later at the beginning of April I already owed 40 euro on it because of tax. If I had to know that I would have waited another two weeks before applying for it.

ionapaul

therecklessone wrote:

Maybe they should remove the €40 tax and replace it with a credit card debt tax?

Ha, that'd be fine with me, but I guess people would object to the aspect of 'kicking them when they are down', you owe €1000 on your card, time to pay €10 to the government, while those of us who can pay in full each month get off scot-free.
TBH, any tax on credit cards is crazy. But then we have many crazy taxes (VRT is a top-contender for craziest) and will have many more in the near future I am sure.

simu

The ATM tax is a bit silly - it would be better to put big bins near all ATMs. I'm amazed that people would be blasé about leaving bankslips on the ground - it's not impossible for someone to pick one up after you've dropped it and decide, on the basis of your account balance, that you're worth mugging.

In terms of rubbish on the streets, fast food joint packaging is a worse offender - I'm surprised they haven't suggested a tax on chips!

As for the credit card tax being imposed uniformly on all credit card users regardless of income - this is unfair. Many students depend on them to tide them over until grants etc come in. It should be abolished on student credit card accounts, at least.

Boggle

Not sure what its like up the country but I know at home the fast food outlets (mc donalds etc...) have their staff sweep up outside and around the shop at the end of the night. I know they dont get absolutely everything but they at least do enough not to warant a tax. Anything they miss can then handily be swept up the next morning along with all the fag buts and other rubbish that does be around anyway. (Not sure but I dont actually see that many fast food bags outside of, say pub times, so is there really that big a problem?)

The only other justification I could see for this would be on non recyclables...

The Corinthian

The first thing to bare in mind is that certain direct taxes are what are often called ‘moral taxes’ - with the classic moral taxes are those placed upon tobacco and alcohol. Of course, eventually you reach a point whereby the level you tax that immoral good or service reaches it’s limit and so you need to find other moral taxes to impose. The rational is that they are designed to pay for the damage caused by the good or service in question. Of course, they will often do much more than that - in the early 1990’s the tax on tobacco products accounted for 6% of total government income.

Chewing gum, ATM receipts, plastic bag levees are all examples of these new ‘moral taxes’.

billy the squid wrote:

Chewing gum tax - Chewing gum is the most disgusting thing ever invented and should be BANNED, if you want something to chew get a baby's dummy.

Chewing gum is a problem only because of littering, and in its defence it’s hugely beneficial to many people who want to stop smoking. So whether it is disgusting in your opinion or not is hardly the point - picking your nose is disgusting in my opinion too, but you don’t see me suggesting that you should have a €10 levee slapped on you, do you?

Credit Card and Bank Card Tax - This should be gotten rid of, 40 Euros on a credit card is outrageous in my opinion, and charging me 10 euros a year so I can get my own money is a rip off.

Then empty your account and stick the cash under your mattress and stop whinging.

ionapaul wrote:

TBH, any tax on credit cards is crazy.

Not really. Unlike the tax on plastic bags, the levies on Credit and ATM cards are more related with inflationary control, than revenue generation. The credit card levee, for example, was specifically designed to curb the level of cheap credit that inevitably (because people are, on balance, idiots) would lead to people with crippling debts spread out over five cards.

As for future direct ‘moral taxes’, I’d not be surprised if fast food and mobile phones are taxed in some manner within a few years.

Personally, if the ATM tax comes in, I’ll happily stop looking for a bin and drop my receipts on the ground. After all, I’ll already have paid for someone to pick them up after me.

clearz

I just have to say to the person who gave me bad karma on this thread saying:

"I dont believe you ae in colledge, that would require a basic level of intelligence"

Please, Please, Please if you are going to take the piss out of somebodys level of intelligence learn to spell 'are' and 'college' right because if you dont it makes you look like a fool.

Thank You.

Boggle

How would you class taxes no ATM receipts as a moral tax? Its a receipt which you are entitled to. Any costs associated with this should be covered by the money the govt already takes on your account. Either that or the banks should be obliged to provide a proper, regularly emptied, bin.

The thing about the credit card, while it may have been offered as an excuse at the time, is hardly believable. It's a tax on something they can get away with taxing .. no other reason than we're stupid enough to pay.

And the mobile phones thing.... well we might aswell start paying up now, cos half of us will be dying of brain tumours in 20 years and lookin for treatment! (Lecturer in college told us that there is more em rad emitted into your head at 1cm than if you were standing 1 metre away from one of those big masts everyone is always complaining about!! .... or something like that cos I was hungover at the time)

The Corinthian

Boggle wrote:

How would you class taxes no ATM receipts as a moral tax? Its a receipt which you are entitled to. Any costs associated with this should be covered by the money the govt already takes on your account.

By that logic, the money that we pay in income tax should realistically cover the health costs associated with both alcohol and tobacco use.

Any moral tax is designed to target those consumers that ‘benefit’ from a good or service, so that they pay for the associated cost to Society of that good or service. If discarded ATM receipts result in an excessive cost to Society, then the moral tax is designed to redress that.

Either that or the banks should be obliged to provide a proper, regularly emptied, bin.

Or people could put them in their pockets until they get to a proper, regularly emptied, bin.

The thing about the credit card, while it may have been offered as an excuse at the time, is hardly believable.

Why not? Almost everyone I know who had in some cases five or six credit cards is now down to one, perhaps two. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that, as a result, with less readily available high cost credit, borrowing and consumer spending will similarly be affected.

It's a tax on something they can get away with taxing .. no other reason than we're stupid enough to pay.

All successful taxes are taxes that a government can get away with, regardless of the purpose for that tax or whether it is just or not. Just ask the Bostonians.

And the mobile phones thing.... well we might aswell start paying up now, cos half of us will be dying of brain tumours in 20 years and lookin for treatment! (Lecturer in college told us that there is more em rad emitted into your head at 1cm than if you were standing 1 metre away from one of those big masts everyone is always complaining about!! .... or something like that cos I was hungover at the time)

But was his point that mobile phones emit a lot of radiation or that the masts don’t emit as much as we might think?

Boggle

If discarded ATM receipts result in an excessive cost to Society, then the moral tax is designed to redress that.

Do they? How? You'll tell me that someone has to go around and clean up but can you honestly tell me that as a direct result of these bank machines and their receipts that the streets now have to be swept more often?

Would you still think its fair enough if you bought a TV but incurred a surcharge for proof of that transaction? Is that not what a receipt is?

Or people could put them in their pockets until they get to a proper, regularly emptied, bin.

Wont argue with the sentiment of this comment as you'r dead right but if a shop has to provide a proper bin outside to deal with the rubbish generated by it then why not a bank?

Almost everyone I know who had in some cases five or six credit cards is now down to one, perhaps two.

... and are probably less likely to shop around for a better value card as you get hit with a double when you cancel one and open another. Again, those with plenty of money are unaffected but anyone who wants to watch his money just cant shop around.

But was his point that mobile phones emit a lot of radiation or that the masts don’t emit as much as we might think?

Just threw that in as an add on to the last post as its way off topic but the point is your frying your head everytime you put one up to it. Ever notice the hot ear after talking for a while even tough the phone is not warm?

sliabh

Boggle wrote:

Ever notice the hot ear after talking for a while even tough the phone is not warm?

Part of that is because you are traping heat by shielding your ears that way.

The Corinthian

Boggle wrote:

Do they? How? You'll tell me that someone has to go around and clean up but can you honestly tell me that as a direct result of these bank machines and their receipts that the streets now have to be swept more often?

I don’t know, you’ll have to ask the government for their exact reasoning. Of course, in the case of supermarket bags the logic is not exactly straightforward either - there, it is used more as a disincentive to use the bags than because of any direct cost. Cigarette levies operate in much the same way.

I would imagine that the logic is that it would in part subsidize cleaning in areas where the ATM receipts add significantly to the level of litter as well as a disincentive to get receipts in the first place, thus further reducing the potential problem.

Would you still think its fair enough if you bought a TV but incurred a surcharge for proof of that transaction? Is that not what a receipt is?

Actually you already pay for the receipt - cash registers, and the receipts they print, are not free.

Wont argue with the sentiment of this comment as you'r dead right but if a shop has to provide a proper bin outside to deal with the rubbish generated by it then why not a bank?

I don’t disagree, that is certainly one solution - of course, then the banks would most likely pass on a cost to the consumer for this.

... and are probably less likely to shop around for a better value card as you get hit with a double when you cancel one and open another. Again, those with plenty of money are unaffected but anyone who wants to watch his money just cant shop around.

Again, I won’t disagree there. All I highlighted was the logic behind the levee, not its shortcomings.

Just threw that in as an add on to the last post as its way off topic but the point is your frying your head everytime you put one up to it.

You threw in an anecdote that, given you were hung over; you may have taken up wrongly. Even if you did not, you took it at face value - after all, academics talk a lot of crap, much of the time. If they didn’t, they’d have real jobs.

Ever notice the hot ear after talking for a while even tough the phone is not warm?

Ever notice how hot your ears get when you wear earmuffs? I take it they give off similar radiation?

Boggle

Of course, in the case of supermarket bags the logic is not exactly straightforward

I thought at the time this was an environmental tax ... more reduce than dont litter....

Actually you already pay for the receipt - cash registers, and the receipts they print, are not free.

Its not a surcharge. In the case of cash registers and receipts, alongside other costs such as staff etc are all factored into the price. The shop (correct me if I am wrong) are obliged to provide you with a proof of transactiopn/purchase and the govt mokes no efort to tax this so why should they tax the proof of transaction with a machine. If there is fault in the machine that receipt is your only proof...

that is certainly one solution - of course, then the banks would most likely pass on a cost to the consumer for this.

True. But better than the govt taxing you... you can always change bank, changing govt isn't as easy...

All I highlighted was the logic behind the levee, not its shortcomings.

And I still have to point out that its a convenient excuse to charge E40 per card. Surely as a creditor, credit card companies were already subjuct to certain conditions under which they could give out cred cards. Therefore the necessary protection was already in place for the public rendering this an obsolete but useful moneymaking tool.... (I could be mistaken on the controls that are in place but please correct me if thats the case)

The phone thing - I was hungover and so may be mixing the type of radiation he was on about ... didn't get the message mixed up! Try removing the battery and hold the phone to your head to see if it heats it as well.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

pickarooney

Consumers, wreak revenge on the CC companies by keeping your credit card account IN THE BLACK.
Put all your wages, savings etc. in there and earn interest at 10%, so Visa/Mastercard pays your stealth tax for you.

How much is bin tax in Ireland these days anyway? I don't remember paying a penny for refuse removal in Dublin. It's almost €400 a year for a two-weekly collection here in Holland. Then there's water tax (don't recall that in Ireland either), build-more-dykes-to-stop-the-flooding tax, existence tax (not sure what else to call tax on living in a house that you don't own - and I don't mean rent!), environment tax, 35% income tax (even the dole is taxed) and humongous taxes on petrol (€1.25 a litre) and the like.

Boggle

Cheers Dave... like I said I was a little hungover on the day but I remembered the maths bit alright. And I know there's no proof its just something my lecturer in college said that seemed to make sense at the time.....

Keyzer

Horse,
I'm gonna let you in on a little secret - Its never gonna change no matter what government is in power.
The best advice I can give you is to finish college and get the flock out of dodge, I myself and applying for a few different visas for different countries and plan on getting out for good.
You'll only wear yourself out moaning and depress yourself, I used to moan about everything - Tax, transport system, jobs et all - but its futile because we in Ireland are guilty of 2 terrible things -

1. We don't complain
2. When we complain we complain to the wrong people

Look at the French, when they aren't happy with something they cause utter chaos until its resolved to their liking, not for one day and then head home e.g. farmers and taxis descending on leinster house.
The stuff that goes on here is disgracefuland if it was any other country there would be civil war. But we say nothing and get hammered in the pubs week in, week out.

I finish on this note - A japanese drill manufacturing company offered to build a 2 line basic metro system in Dublin to test out a new prototype drill. It would be for free (yes, that was free). The Irish goverment rejected this offer to have a free metro and opted for a 5 Billion tram system thats not linked to the airport or to each other because - and this is not a joke - "Irish people don't like being under the ground".....

The Corinthian

Boggle wrote:

I thought at the time this was an environmental tax ... more reduce than dont litter....

Allegedly it is, however fiscal regulations are designed to act in a number of ways to achieve their ends.

Its not a surcharge. In the case of cash registers and receipts, alongside other costs such as staff etc are all factored into the price. The shop (correct me if I am wrong) are obliged to provide you with a proof of transactiopn/purchase and the govt mokes no efort to tax this so why should they tax the proof of transaction with a machine.

Economically the charge is there, regardless of whether you can see it or not. However, I accept your point.

If there is fault in the machine that receipt is your only proof...

That could potentially be grounds for a legal challenge on any such tax, TBH.

True. But better than the govt taxing you... you can always change bank, changing govt isn't as easy...

I agree in this case.

And I still have to point out that its a convenient excuse to charge E40 per card. Surely as a creditor, credit card companies were already subjuct to certain conditions under which they could give out cred cards. Therefore the necessary protection was already in place for the public rendering this an obsolete but useful moneymaking tool.... (I could be mistaken on the controls that are in place but please correct me if thats the case)

If the purpose is to limit borrowing where market forces may encourage it, to the decrement of both individuals and the economy, then standard regulation may not be enough. Do you tell credit card companies that they must limit credit to €500 per account? If so people will get themselves 20 credit cards from different credit card companies. How do you legislate for irresponsible consumers? Unfortunately the best way to do so is to make it unattractive to purchase credit - the same principle to that used when tariffs are imposed on foreign goods.

For example; a consumer must choose between two goods of equal utility. Of course one good costs half that of the other as it was made in the Republic of Ebola where the average annual income is €3.50. The consumer will naturally go for it (even morally justifying his/her choice by accusing the price of the local good to be an example of rip-off culture). Local goods go unsold, ergo local business goes bust, ergo economy suffers. Solution; you slap a tariff on the Ebolan good, making it less attractive. Local good is bought, ergo local business survives, ergo everyone other than the Ebolans is happy (but they don’t speak English, so they don’t really count).

The principle there, as with most taxes and tariffs, is that the consumer acts on selfish motivations and thus, for the common good, a fair market must be tampered with as these selfish motivations may not have that common good at heart. The same goes for credit - even if the market controls are in place, this does not mean that the market will seek to act for that common good.

The phone thing - I was hungover and so may be mixing the type of radiation he was on about ... didn't get the message mixed up! Try removing the battery and hold the phone to your head to see if it heats it as well.

Actually, it does.

BloodBath

Next time you withdraw money simply choose to do so without a receipt.

I finish on this note - A japanese drill manufacturing company offered to build a 2 line basic metro system in Dublin to test out a new prototype drill. It would be for free (yes, that was free). The Irish goverment rejected this offer to have a free metro and opted for a 5 Billion tram system thats not linked to the airport or to each other because - and this is not a joke - "Irish people don't like being under the ground".....

No way. Have you got a link to this story? This is just typical of our government.


BloodBath

Boggle

keyzer - sound advice mate but I'm finished college with 3 years and though I always say I'd love to get the flock outa dodge it is something that's relatively unlikely at this stage....

How do you legislate for irresponsible consumers?

With a bad credit rating??? TBH I dont know how you would manage it and although I see your point re reducing the number of credit cards per person I do have to wonder if a simple surcharge is the best way. Its still strike me as opportunism..... want to reduce debt so we'll just add a tax! I'd rather see them worrying more about the debts being incurred in trying to but a house....

therecklessone

BloodBath wrote:

Next time you withdraw money simply choose to do so without a receipt.

And if the bank makes a mistake, where's your proof of transaction?

I once rang my bank to query two withdrawals of €300 that appeared on the same date on my statement. I had no recollection of the 2nd withdrawal, so rang to see exactly when it took place. The response?

AIB "customer service" agent: Do you not keep your receipts?
Me: Yes, usually. Of course, your machines are routinely out of receipts, and I don't find this out until after I receive my money... :rolleyes:

It turned out the withdrawal had occured over a weekend from a remote Banklink (in a shopping centre), and hadn't been credited until the Monday. Of course, I had no record of the transaction...

Superman

for some reason i thought this post was titled:
"aer rianta fail on drugs"

yummybiscuits

Mike65, NoelRock, DaveIrl

it's people like you and your mammies and daddies (yea yea go cry) that have this country the way it is. We are meant to be living in a free country. Why wasn't there a vote on these issues - WHY - the government don't want to listen to the citizen because that would ruin their big Sunday steak dinner. The Fat Cat greedy umpa lumpas.

I'd say you're bellies are just as full!!!!!!!

No go play and don't annoy me.

gandalf

yummybiscuits wrote:

No go play and don't annoy me.

No I think we will ask you to go away. Permanent ban!!!

billy the squid

Ahhhhh if I had a billy bat and knew where you lived!!

im sure ecksor or devore or cloud could find out where YOU live

some +rep for gandalf

As for bank receipts if the machine is out of bank receipt paper will you still get charged the receipt tax. will the computers be able to know that the machine was out of paper when processing your transaction.