"Kids could Sue schools in the future"

omnicorp

The Irish times has a front page article stating that kids could sue the schools and government in the future for failing to provide proper educational facilities such as PE halls, proper heating &Lightung, plumbing, working sanitation, non-leaky ceilings and outdoor facilities.

I say, (And we all know what I say) About f****** time.
No longer are the Children the overlooked non-voting pawns they once were.
I am curreently involved in a campaign to get proper seating facilities for my school and I found by surveying all of 1st, 2nd and 3rd years that 72% of students DON'T trust the Dep. of Education to fund schools properly.

The government wastes money on electronic voting, red-tape and decentralisation and can't even provide funding for proper educational facilities.

I lost my last shred of hope for this present government whan they and Labour and Fine Gael were involved in purposeful derailing of a democratic election by TELLING their ministers to vote against Dana Rosemary Scallon.

I was wondering are any other people in agreement with me that the Government is treating schools and children badly since they can't vote?

omnicorp

And a link may be useful
www.ireland.com/newspaper/front/2004/1004/1457490187HM1STUDENTSUE.html

ishmael whale

omnicorp wrote:

........The government wastes money on electronic voting, red-tape and decentralisation and can't even provide funding for proper educational facilities.........I was wondering are any other people in agreement with me that the Government is treating schools and children badly since they can't vote?

No, I don’t think that’s the reason. Children may not vote but their parents do, and generally they have a close interest in their offsprings’ education.

There’s simply a lack of strategic direction to the country. Why? One reason is possibly governments don’t see the point in investing in something where the benefits will not be felt until long after the next election. So they throw money at things like e-voting and decentralisation on the basis that if they make enough noise they might be able to create an appearance of having achieved something.

Re. The aspect of children suing the schools.

The Primary school that I went to is being sued by the parents of a child who broke her wrist helping a teacher to lift a school bench. Now the child hurt (sprained) her wrist in the school. Thats accepted. What came out later in court was that the child broke her wrist at home, and the parents blamed it on the school. The first court case was ruled in favour of the school, and then the parents appealed, and the second court also ruled against the family.

This is the problem. Schools are becoming weak against legal cases made by families. This school was lucky, since the child under questioning told the court that the wrist broke at home (much to the anger of the parents). Other schools won't be so lucky. And lets face it, theres a fair number of poorer families that will sieze the chance to make some money this way, even to the point of injuring their own children, and blaming the school.

And before anyone asks for links. I'm not going to. My family works at the school, and this is shown as a real life example.

omnicorp

Ithink people should sue the government if they want to sue over poor facilities.

My school lacks:
proper seating facilities for 1st - 3rd years
PE
Music
money for heating
among others...

Ithink people should sue the government if they want to sue over poor facilities.

It strikes me that nowadays when people have so much more tangible cash in their pockets, they'd be willing to pay something towards the running of the school. A voluntary cash supplem,ent to schools resources, rather than complaining about the facilities. I've seen the facilities for those given to Travellers, and they're not great. However, by suing the school you make life harder for everyone else, since theres even less money in the budget next year around.

The other side is that its hard to find staff willing to work on the maintenance side for schools. FAS supply a fair amount of staff to schools, but they're lacking a certain drive or desire to work there.

omnicorp, you mentioned Music and PE. Your school doesn't provide the subjects or you don't have the facilities needed for them? Regardless its not really something to sue about. Its something you speak to your educational board or local TD.

seamus

It won't happen, as I will have made solicitors illegal by then, and anyone attempting to bring frivilous lawsuits for things that they're not entitled to, wasting our money, will be chained to the spire on O'Connell St and pissed on by drunks.

Seriously. Perhaps they can sue their parents too for not indentifying that the school was a shambles and aiding towards its development or moving their child to a better school. You cannot (or at least should not be allowed to) sue for something when you have done nothing to rectify the situation. If your school has poor facilities, it's your civic duty to point it out and to hound a public servant until it gets sorted. The Irish all too often bitch and moan about things, do nothing to fix them, then expect compensation or concessions after the fact.

It has to stop.

mycroft

omnicorp wrote:

Ithink people should sue the government if they want to sue over poor facilities.

My school lacks:
proper seating facilities for 1st - 3rd years
PE
Music
money for heating
among others...

I'm trying to figure out Omnicorps funny little world.

An avowed "socialist" who's outraged that a woman who doesn't know the meaning of the word "secular" isn't allowed stand for government.

And someone who feels the best approach to figuring out our school underfunding is to sue the education board.

Kid the only people who will win in your ideal situation are the solicitors. Your education authority will just be forced to build up a legal warchest to defend againist spurious court cases.

omnicorp

No, I think the best option would be at, first a letter to the dep. of Education.
If nothing happens, Send another and if again nothing happens maybe a couple of flyers, then maybe, if nothing happens, approach the local TD in an election year and again if nothing happens, an all-out strike would be neccesary.

Sadly, we have tried all of the above bar the last one over the last 30 years to get a sports hall.

mycroft

omnicorp wrote:

No, I think the best option would be at, first a letter to the dep. of Education.
If nothing happens, Send another and if again nothing happens maybe a couple of flyers, then maybe, if nothing happens, approach the local TD in an election year and again if nothing happens, an all-out strike would be neccesary.

Sadly, we have tried all of the above bar the last one over the last 30 years to get a sports hall.

Okay change your opinion again why don't you. First you say sue now strike? :rolleyes:

omnicorp

well, i'd rather strike... so forget suing.

mycroft

Yes yes they're quaking in their boots.

Do you know what we called "striking" students in my day "mitching"

Thank you for once again posted something utterly irrelevant and then reversing your position after several posts.

Seem to me to be pretty trivial things to be considering suing a school over.

Much more interesting was an article I saw some time ago about a woman from Cork who was attempting to sue a school over extreme bullying she suffered.

I havent seen anything else regarding it. While not bullied heavily myself there were still some uncomfortable moments.

Looking back I feel the school was desperately poor in some respects. One person in my class was badly bullied by a small gang and most of the rest of us did nothing probably because we were just glad it wasnt us....

omnicorp

I think the notion of sueing a school over bullying is stupid, it's the bully's fault. But, granted, the school should do something.

I saw an interesting play in school a couple of days ago...
[Northern Accent] "This is a good school, there's no bullying going on here, it's just some playground rough and tumble..."

Some schools might just be in denial.
Just a thought

what if an assault takes place during a time when a teacher should be present but isn't ....i.e a teacher is absent and the class is left unsupervised?

Surely in this regard the school is clearly negligent and at fault

I think the notion of sueing a school over bullying is stupid, it's the bully's fault. But, granted, the school should do something.

What exactly? teachers can't touch students for fear of being sued or charged with some sexual charge. So that marks teacher intervention out. And the parents aren't the most helpful in the world."" My poor "insert name" would never hurt anyone. ""

So in this nanny state of ours, where any violence or discipline is marked as being unsuitable how do you prevent bullying?

well, i'd rather strike... so forget suing

Funny. Very funny. Thing is..... You're availing of a service. You're not producing anything. So you strike. So what? All you're doing is leaving the one place where you can learn. Whoopee!!!

Swarfboy

Seems to be more personal points being made here than any logical sense...
Yes the article is correct in the "future possibility" fo children suing the state especially for the lack of PE facilities.... Play and exercise are vital parts of physical and emotive growth as set out in the UN's Childs Charter for human rights ... Childrens rights are only just beginning to be recognised globally and it is a trend set to continue..

omnicorp

The fact that they [the Govt.] are whinging about obesity and lack of fitness and why are young people drinking too much and etc, etc., etc...

Then, of course, 80% (also reported in another article in the Irish Times) of rural schools don't have PE facilities not to mention many Urban ones...
They aren't exactly teaching kids that drinking too much is wrong either but that's another story... and harder to deal with.

cleansingfire

To sue a school you have to have suffered some loss as a result of the actions or inactions of the school. That loss must be established clearly as must the responsibility of the school for action or inaction.
Former students of schools can sue now, not in the future, if they feel they have suffered said loss. The action would be taken against the board of management or the VEC or the Dept. of Ed and Science depending on the type of school.
Now to the real issue: why have Irish schools such sad facilities? Because parents and teachers fundraise voluntarily and tolerate the funding they get. If parents groups motivated every parent in school to say their votes go to the party who funds ed. as the number 1 priority then the issue would be resolved. Mind you, it would be wise to get the foreign companies who build roads on time and budget (I think!) rather than the rip off merchants we are familiar with.

Victor

cleansingfire wrote:

Mind you, it would be wise to get the foreign companies who build roads on time and budget (I think!) rather than the rip off merchants we are familiar with.

Actually, the PPP schools (about 5? so far) that exist are more expensive to run (by about ~6%) and take up more of the principal's time.....

omnicorp

I think if the people in Ireland in general pressured the government to spend time and money looking after schools instead of E-Voting and a useless metro we could have a better school system.

gandalf

Am actually a metro and proper transport infrastucture is badly needed. E-Voting is also a good idea. The problem has been the inplimentation of both in this country. No proper planning and not enough sound advice taken on the paths they decided to go.

The issue here is co-ordinated planning, there is no point spending money on education if when the young people have finished their studies to realise that there are no jobs because the transport system in the country is one from the 19th century. Surely if obesity is such a problem the government can integrate the money they give to sporting organisations with proviso's that they work hand in hand with schools to help provide their facilities to them for students use as well (which they do to a limited degree already).

The actual thing that makes me laugh about this is the fact if students start sueing the department who do you think suffers in the long run. The Students do :rolleyes:, As for student strikes the only people who benefit from those are the teachers who will have a few easy days.

ArthurDent

Yeah suing the goverment would be such a constructive thing to do :eek: and then when the case is lost we can make another couple of barristers and solicitors even richer when the state sues for costs - like it did in the case where the parents lost their high court action re their ADHD son.

omnicorp

I do agree with you and I do think there is little point suenig the state or non-profit organisations BUT, I ask, who votes in these people?

Good Citizens who don't vote?
or good but misinformed citizens?

And as an after thought, why are all the people who know how to run the country driving taxis or cutting hair?
[joke!]

I do agree with you and I do think there is little point suenig the state or non-profit organisations BUT, I ask, who votes in these people?

Which people? The ones that create the educational budget for the year, the people who actually spend that budget, or the politicians themselves?

cleansingfire

Victor wrote:

Actually, the PPP schools (about 5? so far) that exist are more expensive to run (by about ~6%) and take up more of the principal's time.....

Actually I wasn't referring to PPP at all. I was referring to the building and design costs of Irish schools under the current system. PPP has been frozen since EU investigation into it and has recently received the go ahead. It is a daft idea and one which the English system has begun to realise is daft.

omnicorp

the Politicisns.
People are complaining about them yet they are somehow getting voted in again.

People are complaining about them yet they are somehow getting voted in again

because there is no alternative. They're all pretty much the same. I don't really complain abt the politicians in Ireland anymore. I'm resigned to the fact that they'll act in their own interests every time. Just as I'm resigned that Irish people as a whole are just too lazy to make the politicians change.

omnicorp

I'm not... if it weren't for age restrictions I'd run for Govt.
Oh. And I succesfully helped replace the health-risky chairs in my classroom.
Not much, but it's a start.

I'm not... if it weren't for age restrictions I'd run for Govt.

Fair enough. Do you aim to do so, when you get to that age, and then be amalgamated into some existing party with its own agenda and internal politics?

Oh. And I succesfully helped replace the health-risky chairs in my classroom.

Good Man.

omnicorp

thank you,
I plan to join a party (Not Fianna Fail or Fine Gael)
And when I learn the ropes, maybe start my own.