"Kids could Sue schools in the future"

luckat

Kids can sue schools now - and proper order, they should be able to have a safe workplace the same way as anyone else. A worker who breaks a wrist or is bullied can sue the employer - why shouldn't a schoolgoer be able to do so?

(Unfortunately, as the cases of children raped by their teachers show, when they sue the schools or the church authorities that run those schools, the people who end up paying are not those responsible, but the taxpayers. This is because the government - and this is true of both Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael governments - is under the thumb of the Catholic church. And until the church and the state are decisively separated, you'd have to say that those mad Northerners have a point when they talk about "Rome rule". But this important matter - having a government responsible only to those who vote it in, not to any other body or interest - is unimportant here, it seems, whereas it's a central tenet in Catholic France.)

omnicorp

I think, when a student sues a teacher (or other educator), the educator should pay the costs not the govt. or the school.

Victor

omnicorp wrote:

I think, when a student sues a teacher (or other educator), the educator should pay the costs not the govt. or the school.

What if the educator doesn't have enough money to pay? Is the child with the brain damage after being smacked about by a stressed out teacher meant to go without?

Look up Vicarious liability

omnicorp

well, a jail sentence.... or um... well then I don't know.

Paddyo

I am on the board of management of a small primary school. In fact I am the treasurer. If the school or teacher were to be sued, insurance will cover the costs, once the person being sued has acted in good faith.

What I have found over the years is that the parents who complain loudest are the ones who never involve themselves in any of the activities of the school. They leave little Johnny or Mary at the school gate and try to hive off the complete responsibilty for their child's education to the school.

Of course people have the right to sue. I would hope that it would only happen where real suffering could be shown.


Thank God we have not had any issues with either the school or teacher being sued for anything.

Paddyo

omnicorp

yes. As a matter of interest, does your school have adaquete (damn spelling lessons) PE facilities?
And healthy chairs? (You would be VERY suprised that 71 PERCENT of students at my school complain of back pain from overweight bags and poor seating facilities!

Paddyo

My school has no PE facilities other than an open air basketball court and a fairly large grass playing area. All of the buildings are prefabs.

As regards seating - I have not heard any compaints regarding the seats - we have different sizes for different classes - age groups.

It is a disgrace that some children have to carry such heavy bags. it should be a case of only carrying what is necessary - not all books at all times. If the bag has to be heavy why not get a trolley bag - I know it looks naf, but it might save problems later in life.

Paddyo

It is a disgrace that some children have to carry such heavy bags. it should be a case of only carrying what is necessary - not all books at all times. If the bag has to be heavy why not get a trolley bag - I know it looks naf, but it might save problems later in life.

Oh come on! Thats the responsibility of the parents and the kids involved. Its no way the responsibility of the school.

Paddyo

Hi Klaz

I suppose it depends on what age the child is and if its primary or secondary.
In secondary the pupil knows what subject is going to be taught when. So yes it is there responsibility to only have the required books.

In primary schools, the teacher decides when a particular subject is going to be taught. Usually all of the school books stay in the classroom and only the ones required for home work are brought home. Remember we are also talking about kids from 5 to 11/12 years old and what their teacher says must be done. So I think the school - in this case the teacher - has some responsibility.

Paddyo

Hi Klaz

Wassup, Dog

So I think the school - in this case the teacher - has some responsibility.

Not really. Thats taking the nanny state a bit far. It remains the responsibility of the family to supply anything to help the kids with their books or such. The school/teacher have enough responsibilities without being loaded with that aswell. Regardless, kids aged 5 up to 9 or 10, don't really have that much in the way of books to carry. I know I've seen the books they use. And kids in primary school, can take the weight, and they should.

Personally, I think its mothering kids too much. Sure, after the junior cert or in college when you have 5-6 hardback books, its a pain, and should be helped by lockers on school/college grounds. But anything else apart from that? Nope. Nada.

Victor

Paddyo wrote:

As regards seating - I have not heard any compaints regarding the seats - we have different sizes for different classes - age groups.

The western concept of a flat seat is not anatomically correct (the natural way for "wild" humans to rest is to squat), it should be sloped forward - this is why some people sit on the very edge of the seat.

bonkey

Deleted User wrote:

...Thats taking the nanny state a bit far. It remains the responsibility of the family to supply anything to help the kids with their books or such. ...
Personally, I think its mothering kids too much.

The thing you have to remember, klaz, is that while you are in school, the school have certain legal liabilities concerning you, in the sense that - to some extent - they are considered your gaurdians. (I could be wrong on this, but it was always my understanding).

It is as a direct result of this burden of responsibilty that we see the legal cases that we do - that teachers/schools are found to be remiss in the care of those they are responsible for.

Now, if they have this reponsibility, then it is not simply a case of saying that the parents are the ones responsible, so let them deal with it, or that its a nanny-state question where the state is taking a burden that should be left up to the parents. Of course, by parents, we really mean "those who actually have a direct legal responsibility for the welfare of the child".....

The school has some degree of that legal responsibility, and while it is not a surrogate parent, it is capable of being found wanting in the care that it provides.

Of course, you could remove the legal responsibility from the school, but then that opens up a whole 'nother can of worms as parents would now be leaving children in the care of someone who is no longer legally responsible for them.....so while you might prevent the prosecution the school over something that you consider to the parent's lookout, you could also protect the school from prosecution on far more serious issues given that the parents signed over the care of the child without signing over responsibility..

Maybe I'm wrong in my understanding of the school's responsibility, but if I'm not, then it is not simply a case of saying that looking after those you are responsible for is someone else's responsibility.

jc

omnicorp

Paddyo wrote:

My school has no PE facilities other than an open air basketball court and a fairly large grass playing area. All of the buildings are prefabs.

As regards seating - I have not heard any compaints regarding the seats - we have different sizes for different classes - age groups.

It is a disgrace that some children have to carry such heavy bags. it should be a case of only carrying what is necessary - not all books at all times. If the bag has to be heavy why not get a trolley bag - I know it looks naf, but it might save problems later in life.

Paddyo

First of all, if you sit in one crappy chair for 7 hours, 5 days a week it's going to cause problems.
Secondly, Many of the books are VERY unnescassery, SIX books, BIG BOOKS, for science. why is it not possible to divide many of the bigger books, such as History and geography into smaller volumes?
Thirdly, PE is MORE important than geography, What use is knowing the difference between incline and anticline if you've never gotten to do sports.
Fourthly, IT IS A F******* DISGRACE IF IN THIS DAY AND AGE THAT A SCHOOL HAS PREFABS AND NO PE FACILITIES WHEN THE GOVERNMENT WASTES MONEY ON E-VOTING.
Fifthly, People don't complain about seats because we've never beenm thought that it's a serious issue that could lead to problems in later life.

bonkey

omnicorp wrote:

First of all, if you sit in one crappy chair for 7 hours, 5 days a week it's going to cause problems.

You seem to forget that this is what an awful lot of people have done before you, and we don't have an epidemic of bad backs etc. from it. Not only that, but many people continue the practice, and get to sit in crappy chairs for most of their white-collar lives too.

Going one step further, you do not sit in that chair for 7 hours. You have breaks etc. who's whole purpose is to allow you to refresh both body and mind.

I wonder...have you made your parents replace every chair in your house with "proper" ones? No ordinary chairs at the table? No ordinary sofa's or armchairs for watching tv in your house, I hope? And I trust they've also bought you an orthopedic bed. If not, then what in the name of whatever you believe in makes you think that its a school's responsibility to do what your own family won't?

Secondly, Many of the books are VERY unnescassery, SIX books, BIG BOOKS, for science.

All of which are needed every day?

why is it not possible to divide many of the bigger books, such as History and geography into smaller volumes?

Why is it not possible to ask your teacher which science books he/she will use in the next class at the end of each one, so that you immediately get to cut your bookload by FIVE BIG BOOKS!!!

Thirdly, PE is MORE important than geography, What use is knowing the difference between incline and anticline if you've never gotten to do sports.

Because, as we all also know, children do not engage in any physical activity after school, but rather stay home studying geography etc. So if htey don't do PE at school, they'll never get any exercise, but if they don't do geography...its no biggie....they'll learn the same stuff in that free time they spend studying in. :frown:

Fourthly, IT IS A F******* DISGRACE IF IN THIS DAY AND AGE THAT A SCHOOL HAS PREFABS AND NO PE FACILITIES WHEN THE GOVERNMENT WASTES MONEY ON E-VOTING.

Sure....but if you see your schooling problems (as opposed to many others like slipping standards of education) as the best use of that money....well....that would be a f******* disgrace as well to be honest.

Fifthly, People don't complain about seats because we've never beenm thought that it's a serious issue that could lead to problems in later life.

Errr....again....see the comments I started with. Where's this flood of problems that you can attribute to these chairs, seeing as every single school-leaver alive in this country today would have had what you would have to classify as sub-standard seating.....

I'd also point out that any study I've ever seen (no links handy...they were paper-based) all concluded that excepting in the most unusual cases, there was no effective risk from "conventional" seating until the mid/late twenties at the earliest.

jc

omnicorp

bonkey wrote:

Going one step further, you do not sit in that chair for 7 hours. You have breaks etc. who's whole purpose is to allow you to refresh both body and mind.
jc

Two, 11 and 1 No in between clkass breaks, the teachers come to us.

Actually the not bringing all the books thing makes sense but.... we HAVE to bring them all or risk essays.

And why shouldn't every school have PE facilities or proper classrooms or is E-Voting more important?

And Geography was an example.

Capt'n Midnight

omnicorp wrote:

I was wondering are any other people in agreement with me that the Government is treating schools and children badly since they can't vote?

Much research has shown that investment in education is most effective at Primary school level, the money goes further and the person can benefit for the rest of their time in the educational system. Compare the amount spent on primaries per student and the amount on third level students and on average the third level students will have left the educational in two years time.

Also not everyone goes on to third level so funding primary is a lot fairer to the taxpayers.

bonkey

omnicorp wrote:

And why shouldn't every school have PE facilities or proper classrooms or is E-Voting more important?

Huh? Maybe you didn't understand the point I made. Allow me to clarify:

E-voting is less important than what you are saying the money should be spent on. I agree. No question.

What you are saying the money should be spent on is, in turn, less important than many other key problems which need to be addressed with our education system.

In short, spending money on your chosen areas (PE and better chairs) would be as big a F***ing disgrace as spending it on evoting would be, if your criteria is that the money should be spent where it is most needed.

jc

omnicorp

well, we COULD spend the money on ALL problems. We are a Very rich country, many people can AFFORD slightly higher taxes. Raise taxes and budget a bit better and all problems could be addressed.

well, we COULD spend the money on ALL problems. We are a Very rich country, many people can AFFORD slightly higher taxes. Raise taxes and budget a bit better and all problems could be addressed.

Right. How much taxes are you paying already? I'm paying a fairly high amount already, and I don't really want to pay any more. This government of ours has a number of stealth taxes which are technically illegal as part of the EU, but they ignore it. Many people may be able to afford higher taxes, but there's just as many people that can't, or are taxed enough already.

Also this country of ours has a fairly high country debt, which doesn't really hold a wonderful insight into how rich we are. Lack of innovation, lowering company setups etc are all indicators that Ireland is not the successful country we all hoped it would be.

Budget better, yes. Raise taxes? Come back to me when you're actually paying them yourself. (not a dig against you personally.)

Paddyo

Deleted User wrote:

Not really. Thats taking the nanny state a bit far. It remains the responsibility of the family to supply anything to help the kids with their books or such. The school/teacher have enough responsibilities without being loaded with that aswell. Regardless, kids aged 5 up to 9 or 10, don't really have that much in the way of books to carry. I know I've seen the books they use. And kids in primary school, can take the weight, and they should.

QUOTE]

Speaking as a parent who sometime has to carry the school bags for 2 children aged 6 and 8 I can assure you that the weight of the bags can be excessive. Sure each book on its own may not amount to much, but put them altogether with copy books, lunch box etc and the weight soon mounts up.

I dont know if you have kids - but I dont want my kids struggling with heavy bags - can you explain why they should?


With regards to the prefabs - they are probably a lot better than some of the normal school buildings out there. They are well maintained and warm. It could be worse. Granted, it could be better and we have just started the procedure - once again - of putting the school on the list for a new school building.

Paddyo

I dont know if you have kids - but I dont want my kids struggling with heavy bags - can you explain why they should?

No more than saying that I carried them and I've never had a back problem in my life. I just don't see the need. Perhaps you can convince me?

Paddyo

I dont know if I can convince you but recently, because I though the bags were too heavy I weighed my sons bag with all of the items in side - it weighed over a stone - still havn't got around to metric. Now I would not like him to carry 7 bags of sugar - why should I want him to carry this bag?

Paddyo

bonkey

omnicorp wrote:

well, we COULD spend the money on ALL problems. .

Yes, but then we wouldn't be spending enough on any of them to actually make a significant difference.

We are a Very rich country, many people can AFFORD slightly higher taxes. Raise taxes and budget a bit better and all problems could be addressed.

No offence, Omni, but thats just a load of old cobblers.

jc

omnicorp

exactly, wait till he goes to secondary school. And I can tell you, my back does hurt, maybe not a serious health problem but it still hurts and doesn't exactly help concentration in the classroom.