Bigley gets Irish passport!

100gSoma

mike65 wrote:

Just an aside, did anyone see that Billy Connelly put it foot in it?
Saying he "wished they'd just get on with it" which I presume is reference to be-heading rather than handing Bigley over. Also I'm half-expecting Paul Bigley to announce he's running for Parliment on an anti-war ticket any day now...

Mike.

yeah I heard that alright. In his hammersmith gig two nights ago. He also said "whats with his young asian wife?" I was surprised to say the least. I like Billy, but was surprised he broached such a 'current' and sensitive issue.

he was booed when he made his "get on with it" comment, and some man shouted "thats a mans life your joking about Billy" and Billy replied "Oh F*** off"

Thats what was reported in the papers anyways.

oscarBravo

Superman wrote:

He is about as irish as a union jack.

The Union Jack is one third Irish.

Does that entitle it to a passport?

Jivin Turkey

Superman wrote:

for instance he may be a worker but i'm sure he could of still earned a living in England doing normal work, please don't try to project him as some sort of down trodden worker who has no choice in his job!
Was he made work in Iraq? or is he just there for the money? cause to me there seems to be shi+ all else in iraq at the mo.(note sarcasm)

So do police men and fire men deserve to die in their line of work because it is somewhat risky? Sure they could have earned a living doing "normal work", and its not as is they have "no choice in his job". And they werent "made" be police/fire men.

Good one.

Hobbes

I think we can settle this with a bit of "Clerks"..

http://www.whysanity.net/monos/clerks5.html

"I'm alive because I knew there were risks involved taking on that particular client. My friend wasn't so lucky. (pauses to reflect) You know, any contractor willing to work on that Death Star knew the risks. If they were killed, it was their own fault. A roofer listens to this... (taps his heart) not his wallet."

bonkey

Deleted User wrote:

However, your statements just support the idea that any african or refugee that has a child here in Ireland, can get a passport/citizenship for that child.

No they don't. They support the fact that when Bigley was born, the law entitled him to the right of citizenship. Whether or not that is the current situation has no effect - the legal-shift does not retro-actively apply.

Sure, this is an extreme case (Bigley), however, the case remains, that we have recently voted to curtail open citizenship. Bit of a backtrack.

Dear lord klaz....did you really understand so little and/or have you forgeten so much about what the referendum was about?

How can it possible be a backtrack to not retro-actively apply a non-retro-active legal change which wouldn't even effect the classification we're discussing in the first place.

The referendum was about people born on the island to non-Irish parents. It did not, does not and was not intended to effect the entitlement of people born off the island to Irish parents one whit....which is the situation in this case.

Now, you may think that this is a "problem" that the referendum failed to address, but thats different to saying that anything thats been done is a backtrack.

jc

FatherTed

I guess my problem with this whole deal is the fact that Bigley didnt bother to get a passport in all his years. He never deemed it to be important to him to use his citizenship to get an Irish passport. But he sure did have a British passport. Sure enough, it is his right to have one but this whole episode comes off as being a tad bit disengenuous.
As for the pregnant Africans taking trips to Ireland to have a baby deal, the referendum penalizes the mother/family and the baby. Like it or not, the baby is born in Ireland, does that not count for something? Shouldnt the baby be given rights? It smacks of racism to me.

Jivin Turkey

FatherTed wrote:

As for the pregnant Africans taking trips to Ireland to have a baby deal, the referendum penalizes the mother/family and the baby. Like it or not, the baby is born in Ireland, does that not count for something? Shouldnt the baby be given rights? It smacks of racism to me.

But the new constitution does not just apply to Africans, it applies to Americans and Australians too, so how is it racist?

The government hope this will help Bigley get freedom, Im sure they would do the same for anyone who was ACTUALLY entitled to a passport but never applied for one, JUST LIKE Bigley, whether they were from England, America, or Africa.

griffdaddy

we should of fu(kin' bleedin' fu(kin' got our six counties back in return, off them fu(kin' bleedin' inglish (unts!
na seriously though, if it gets him out, it's worth it.
the only thing i fear is that it might dilute the irish stance somewhat or indeed be used as some kind of escape mechanism by people in the future over there, having said that the number of 'nationalised' irish people over there is probably minimal anyway

FatherTed

Jivin Turkey wrote:

But the new constitution does not just apply to Africans, it applies to Americans and Australians too, so how is it racist?

Because it was mostly Africans who were taking advantage of this.

tipperaryboy

They are bending over backwords to get him an Irish passport cause it seuirosly could get him free'd.Some poster said how come they are giving him one when loads of childern born in ireland cant get one. it could get him free'd you fool!

naitkris

merc wrote:

Because the irish are respected to a certain degree in the middle east compared to the good old empire that was once england. I suppose thats why they think it will help.

I don't know. To be honest I don't think the terrorists will care if he gets an Irish, German, French, Swiss etc. passport or whatever - to these terrorists he is a westerner on their land.

I've lived 15 years in the Middle East (5 in Kuwait and 10 in Bahrain) and a lot of the time when I was introduced to non-English speaking friends of friends (my Arabic is terrible I am really ashamed to say) they thought I was either American or British (yet I am Swedish - which is a very neutral country, i.e. we don't allow U.S. planes to stop over on the way to wage war in another country, particularly a non U.N.-sanctioned war).

Basically most westerners are all looked at in much the same way if you ask me (the same way foreigners to Ireland appear by a vast majority to be looked at differently if they are from the same continent - i.e. Asia, Africa, South America, North America, Eastern Europe etc.)- i.m.o. if I was in Bigley's shoes as a Swede I would still be where he is - these terrorists are just a small fraction of a % of Muslim's but who are the very extreme of the extreme - their regard for human life is non-existant and you can't reason with them unless its a trade for big money etc. - look at how the two French journalists are still held for so many weeks (and France was opposed to the war completely - no U.S. planes stopped over in France before heading to Iraq I don't think - correct me if I am wrong there).

Superman

Jivin Turkey wrote:

So do police men and fire men deserve to die in their line of work because it is somewhat risky? Sure they could have earned a living doing "normal work", and its not as is they have "no choice in his job". And they werent "made" be police/fire men.

I never said he deserves to die

flogen

Superman wrote:

I don't know where to start! your reply is full if gaping holes, for instance he may be a worker but i'm sure he could of still earned a living in England doing normal work, please don't try to project him as some sort of down trodden worker who has no choice in his job!
Was he made work in Iraq? or is he just there for the money? cause to me there seems to be shi+ all else in iraq at the mo.(note sarcasm)

Also I love the way you suggest we mail Al-Jazeera with out deepest heartfelt plea's for him to be safe, this is ridiculous! I wonder would you recomend I do the same about terror in palestinian refugees and express our disgust at Israeli terror.

Also it think would also be great if everyday you could put a post of with a tip about how to be a "decent human" as you seem to be an authority on the matter! :cool:

Don't know where to start, eh? Are you Dick Cheney?

I'm sure he could have earned a living in the UK, I pointed out myself that he was earning big money working in Iraq, but that doesn't make him a bad man, nor does it disqualify him from sympathy just because he succummed to the risk inherent in the job he took on.
And I do reccommend you do the same re: Palestine, if you feel it will make a difference, however given that Israel refuses to listen to the UN Supreme court and most of the civilised world I don't think you'll get far. Given that these terrorists are only looking for publicity for their aims and need to appeal to their potential masses by attacking their "enemy" rather than someone trying to help them (and now a member of a neutral country) there is always the small but plausable chance they will listen. Maybe.

Now, as for todays tip on how you can be a better human being... cop yourself on and show some respect of human life, rather than assuming everyone in Iraq is there with blood on their hands and money in their pockets.
Is that moralistic enough for you?

flogen

100gSoma

naitkris wrote:

(yet I am Swedish - which is a very neutral country, i.e. we don't allow U.S. planes to stop over on the way to wage war in another country, particularly a non U.N.-sanctioned war).

bitter. :rolleyes: yeah but then again, Swedens economy is not soley dependant on US investment. Without the US IT companies(google, ebay, dell etc) here, all we have is agriculture. 9%(approx) of our gross income.

I don't think letting the US use our airports is tantamount to us no longer being neutral. They were transporting personnel not bombs. ok, armed personnel. Thats a very sensitive issue thuogh and I can see the whole shannon question from two sides.

I think Ireland is too small-fry of a country to take any big moral stands and lose favour with the US. imo.

A Dub in Glasgo

Ireland was not really neutral in the whole invasion of Iraq. If we were, no US aircraft would have been allowed to land never mind refuel or to use our airspace. We done it because it was in our interests to do it but lets not kid ourselves on that we were really neutral.

MadsL

seamus wrote:

We're still respected as the small country of rebels who toppled the British Empire and gained independence through force. A romantic notion sure, but it comes in very handy

Romantic and hardly factual...a small matter of WW1 raging through the world at the time...toppling the British empire, hardly.

seamus

MadsL wrote:

Romantic and hardly factual...a small matter of WW1 raging through the world at the time...toppling the British empire, hardly.

Exactly, but it's still the impression that many people have.

eirebhoy

naitkris wrote:

I don't know. To be honest I don't think the terrorists will care if he gets an Irish, German, French, Swiss etc. passport or whatever - to these terrorists he is a westerner on their land.

He'd already be dead if he was 100% English.

Syed Al-Kareem - “Bigley is in good shape and is being treated well by his captors” and is currently being held in a Baghdad suburb. “The captors have asked for clarification of his Irish heritage…the captors clearly stated to me that they have no fight with the Irish people, but were unsure if he was an Irishman or English and are seeking clarification”. “The Irish have fought like us to wipe the stain of English Imperialism, murder and rape from their lands”

naitkris

100gSoma wrote:

bitter. :rolleyes: yeah but then again, Swedens economy is not soley dependant on US investment. Without the US IT companies(google, ebay, dell etc) here, all we have is agriculture. 9%(approx) of our gross income.

i am just stating the obvious of how Ireland's neutrality is really not neutrality at all - the Irish Government are just pretending to be neutral while helping the U.S.A. in their non-U.N. sanctioned war plans - how Ireland sucks up to the U.S.A. in return for investment and jobs while sacrificing their neutrality is another issue.

eirebhoy wrote:

He'd already be dead if he was 100% English.

Syed Al-Kareem - “Bigley is in good shape and is being treated well by his captors” and is currently being held in a Baghdad suburb. “The captors have asked for clarification of his Irish heritage…the captors clearly stated to me that they have no fight with the Irish people, but were unsure if he was an Irishman or English and are seeking clarification”. “The Irish have fought like us to wipe the stain of English Imperialism, murder and rape from their lands”

I am sure that if the terrorists holding Bigley knew that Ireland wasn't really neutral and that Ireland helped the U.S.A. in their war plans on Iraq by letting armed troops stop over on their way to Iraq they wouldn't be too happy - thank goodness the terrorists are stupid as well as being cruel and sick individuals.

Raskolnikov

I can't believe some of the horrendously cynical comments that some of you have here. You don't seem to realise that there's a mans life at stake here. Not only that, but the man has done no wrong whatsoever. I mean, what friggin' harm can it do to give the man a passport? If it helps; in even the most insignificant terms to free his life, then it's worth giving the man a passport.

Redleslie2

Raskolnikov wrote:

I can't believe some of the horrendously cynical comments that some of you have here. You don't seem to realise that there's a mans life at stake here. Not only that, but the man has done no wrong whatsoever. I mean, what friggin' harm can it do to give the man a passport? If it helps; in even the most insignificant terms to free his life, then it's worth giving the man a passport.

I think Mr.Bigley's status has been elevated well above 'human being' at this stage. He's now a piece of macabre public entertainment and frankly I think people are more interested in entertainment than truly empathising with the suffering of other human beings.

flogen

Redleslie2 wrote:

I think Mr.Bigley's status has been elevated well above 'human being' at this stage. He's now a piece of macabre public entertainment and frankly I think people are more interested in entertainment than truly empathising with the suffering of other human beings.

I fail to see the entertainment value, I'm sure others would disagree and think this is all great tv, but frankly I find it worrying on a human level and as such hope to see him return safe. How that happens doesn't really concern me.

flogen

Raskolnikov

flogen wrote:

I fail to see the entertainment value

Billy Conolly might disagree.

Redleslie makes a good point though, the whole spectacle has become a debacle.

100gSoma

Redleslie2 wrote:

I think Mr.Bigley's status has been elevated well above 'human being' at this stage. He's now a piece of macabre public entertainment and frankly I think people are more interested in entertainment than truly empathising with the suffering of other human beings.

speak for yourself.

A Dub in Glasgo

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=6451914

It looks as if he was killed anyway

bonkey

At the risk of stirring a bit excessively....

If Mr. Bigley has been working in Iraq for 20 years, doesn't that mean that he was helping to support Saddam???

jc

mike65

bonkey wrote:

At the risk of stirring a bit excessively....

If Mr. Bigley has been working in Iraq for 20 years, doesn't that mean that he was helping to support Saddam???

jc

Sort of I guess, the tag mercenary which is so loved by anti-war ppl is true. He'd work for anyone.

Mike.

GuanYin

I don't agree with it but there is a strong feeling among the american people that these guys being captured in Iraq are all over there for the money and knew that staying around was dangerous but risked the consequences. As such many feel its terrible but aren't anyway near as upset as the people in the UK. Its probably why its not getting much TV coverage there either (their own men that is)...well....that and cos Bush probably feels it might damage his campaign......