What does it take to set up a new phone company?

simonm2

What does it take to set up a new telecoms company? Obviously buckets of money helps. That aside.

Here's the idea, which like most other ideas is probably about as original as "sausage in a bun" to quote Terry Pratchett.

A community based project (perhaps in association with something like a credit union which has local roots but national connections or the local junior chambers or macra for that matter) which in the first phase simply acts as yet another reseller of the incumbent's land line and maybe even chooses to bundle yet another operators long distance option (e.g. vartec) and create its own flat rate (real not eircom style) local call package along with dsl/or (real) flat rate dialup. Phase two is put your own lines down and equipment into exchanges. The package could also include mobiles - sooner or later we will have to have third parties in the mobile market.

To what extent is Eircom obliged to allow a new telecoms start-up sell landlines? (or at least collect rental for them). What kind of investment would be needed to get a local company to this stage?

Any thoughts? Is it sheer madness driven by blind rage, anger and hate?

Ripwave

simonm2 wrote:

A community based project (perhaps in association with something like a credit union which has local roots but national connections or the local junior chambers or macra for that matter) which in the first phase simply acts as yet another reseller of the incumbent's land line and maybe even chooses to bundle yet another operators long distance option (e.g. vartec) and create its own flat rate (real not eircom style) local call package along with dsl/or (real) flat rate dialup.

You mean like IFA Telecom?

BrianD

IFA (as in the farmers) have set up their own branded telecoms operation - IFA telecom. I think they piggyback on the Esat BT network as I know if you have IFA telecom you can not use IOL Anytime internet packages.

In theory, there is nothing stopping you (providing you comply with planning, insustry standards etc.) in laying down your own network. The population densities in rural Ireland make this proposition very expensive. Small cable TV operators in urban areas offered potential for this but few are in local hands with the exception of Longford and Tramore. NTL have almost abandoned there telephony operations in Ireland.

Single source billing perhaps offers some hope for smaller operators. In the past, smaller operators were often bundled with bad debts as bad payers simply switched from one operator to the next safe in the knowledge that they could not be "cut off". Single source billing increases competition and also gives the supplier a bit of clout.

At the end of the day Esat BT started with (then illegal) autodiallers for business customers and has moved up to become the company it is now.

SeaSide

The group broadband schemes were an attempt at this. What will determine whether these perish or thrive will be the people driving them.

It can and has been done but the transition as you move up at each stage is logarithmic in effort and capital.

simonm2

That's getting towards the general concept. But the IFA package is not actually offering any significant benefits to its users - the Internet packages are more expensive than the EstatBt ones they mimic (or are as the case maybe). Similarly they are twice as expensive to European destintations as Vartec (e.g 16c to Germany vs 8).

The IFA and the GAA for that matter are using telecoms as another means of fundraising. I am thinking in terms of a set-up that is dedicated to getting the best prices for the users as opposed to making money for either an interest group or for a investors.

However, as far as the mechanics of setting up and the funding needed, it would be similar I imagine to the IFA concept. Sp the question remains, how do you do it and how much dosh do you need to get past go?

simonm2

SeaSide wrote:

The group broadband schemes were an attempt at this.

This is pretty much the direction I was thinking - except so far I have never come across any successful group broadband scheme - I get the feeling it fizzled out.

So assuming you have a group, what is the next step to being able to sell telephone services?

oscarBravo

What's with writing off the group schemes before they even get a chance to get established?

KCN (while not a GBS in the government-funded sense) is thriving - albeit at a restricted scale so far - and generating a small surplus. Others are only getting started. Viking, help me out here.

simonm2

oscarBravo wrote:

What's with writing off the group schemes before they even get a chance to get established?

Only ignorance - lack of knowledge - your are the first person who has ever pointed me towards one which is working - fantastic! Would love to hear more about it. Hopefully Viking will hear your call and post some interesting stuff.

Eurorunner

Whats your location simonm2?

Is there any reason why you cannot get involved in a Group Broadband Scheme yourself?
You don't have to be a telecoms guru.
Just drop out some flyers = stick them up in the local shops, etc. with basics of what you want to achieve ie. broadband internet access/VOIP telephony. See what reaction you get back and setup a commitee - then, depending on the location and expertise available, either setup a scheme like Oscar Bravo has done or follow Vikings lead and get it sorted in conjunction with a Wireless ISP.

Once we get a couple more of these schemes up and running, we need to break down Comregs door and make them sort out the phone numbering thing - so that existing phone no.s can be used for VOIP - then theres no need for Eircon or even any of those piggybacking on their network.

simonm2

Eurorunner wrote:

Whats your location simonm2?

Loughrea

Eurorunner wrote:

Is there any reason why you cannot get involved in a Group Broadband Scheme yourself?

Very little except uncertainty about future location.

Eurorunner wrote:

... either setup a scheme like Oscar Bravo has done or follow Vikings lead and get it sorted in conjunction with a Wireless ISP...

Would like to see more about these two.


My object in this post is get more info about the possibilities: one bit of me would love to own a phone company and make money but on the whole I think telecoms are too important for that particular dream.

I have been pontificating to friends for years that the EU should be one local call zone. (Much in the same way as competition has made airfares more or less totally independent of distance - or as the postal service changed the nature of long distance correspondance in the 18th/19th centuries).

As for telephone calls - well Vartec (and previously Swiftcall who I dumped) make our international calls quite reasonable. The key problems at the moment are the ludiciously expensive local calls and the line rental.

So what I'd like to do is have the facts and figures about how to set up a telephone/broadband system within the existing framework. I thoroughly agree about voip - vonage in the us is a fantastic idea. When I consider that internet, landline and mobiles cost me about 3.5k a year and when I look at what I'm getting for that money I am absolutely disgusted. A couple of times over the last year I have looked into satellite systems toying with re-selling the bandwidth but have not really gone very far with it. My gut feeling is that if you invest in a satellite system in any given village or small town, eircom will enable the exchange post haste and put you out of business.

Why am I doing nothing at the moment? Two reasons I suppose. I am looking at a job in London because I am tired of the stuff that's going on around me. London has never been on my top 100 list but if it works out I am looking at a pretty decent job over there. The second reason is that specifically in Loughrea sooner or later it would mean getting involved with our infamous FF town councillors, the guys who tried to rezone a little plot of land on the route of our bypass as soon as the NRA announced financing. They had to drop that little plan as the NRA told them to sod off. I'm not sure I could be civil with people I hold in such little respect.

Anyway I'd still like to get as much info as possible. It would be nice to have a step by step plan of how to go about it - kind of like the business plan from the various franchise chains - what to do, when and how much does it cost.

Eurorunner

Would like to see more about these two.

Ok - thats easy. For Oscar Bravos scheme, just use "knockmore" as a search word on boards. That should drag up plenty of info - including links to a couple of articles in the national press.

For Vikings scheme, check out his website:
www.broadband4kinnegad.com
In addition, use "viking AND kinnegad" as search words within the ireland offline board and i'd imagine that should pull up the info.

Very little except uncertainty about future location.

Ok, well all you have to do is the following. For your particular village or town (im assuming your outside loughrea somewhere, assuming that loughrea itself is enabled for DSL at this stage...?), stick up a couple of A4 sheets in the local shops, post office, etc. Just has to have a couple of lines.
"Are you interested in Wireless Broadband? If so, contact <insert your name here> at <phone no.> and <email address>.

Wait and see what comes back - it may surprise you. You only need a couple of VERY interested people to drive this thing - so that even if you do decide to go away, you can let them carry it forward.
In my opinion, you don't necessarily need councillors onboard. Its far better to have people who are motivated by achieving broadband access than some local councillor who may not have his heart in it.

Just collect the names and numbers - tell them that its preliminary stage and you want to ascertain the level of interest locally.

Thats an hours work. Try it and come back and let us know what response you get.

simonm2

Thanks for the info - I'll look them all up. I am actually in Loughrea itself which got broadband in late June but Eircom has never bothered mentioning it to anybody! I would guess that half the town has no idea it's available.

I looked at http://www.ehotspot.co.uk/ back at the beginning of the year and followed them back to http://www.Aramiska.com who are one of the 5(?) licensed satellite operators in Ireland. I have two quibbles with satellite - cost of the ground kit - if you could get it second hand from the US it wouldn't be so bad - but that is probably not a runner unless you go direct to someone like aramiska. The second one is latency - it's really too much for voip - or at least in the price range where broadband is affordable - I suppose if you throw money at satellite bandwidth then voice is fine. Even the current national suppliers of satellite broadband have gotton the price to about 100 a month which isn't too bad compared to the typical 65 which most providers cost (i.e. 25 line rental plus 40 bb). If you could get voip actually running on that then it would give Eircom a run for their money.

Getting people together isn't really an issue: Eircom left 350 customers in Loughrea with no phones for 8 days in August 2003 with loads of intermittent faults before hand. They tried the "act of God" lightening trick - but in the end they refunded anyone who was persistent enough. There are a lot of people who would buy into a service, but the financials would have to be interesting enough to overcome inertia. I don't know where to begin on financials (apart from the broadband from aramiska - they have fairly up front numbers on their site ).

Eurorunner

Forget Satellite. You have already discovered the reasoning why you should. If this isnt enough, another search on boards will provide solid reasoning that satellite is not an option.
I have one way sat. and its better than nothing but its not broadband as the rest of the western world sees it.

At the risk of being boring, print off a couple of A4 sheets and stick them up at the local shops. If you have a list of names/no.s of people who are definitely interested (and if they have gone to the trouble of getting in contact then they are), you already have a certain degree of power.

Do that first before deciding how to proceed.

Paddy20

Think of becoming a registered Co-operative. As I believe OscarBravo set up. It sound's the type of business concept you are talking about.

Ripwave

simonm2 wrote:

This is pretty much the direction I was thinking - except so far I have never come across any successful group broadband scheme - I get the feeling it fizzled out.

There was an article on page 2 of todays (Tuesday) Irish Times entitled "Daingean gets together to bring in broadband". It says that Daingean Co Offally is the first community of fewer than 1,500 people to avail of the Government support for group broadband schemes.

And if you thing Vartec is good, check out Telestunt.

jwt

Paddy20 wrote:

Think of becoming a registered Co-operative. As I believe OscarBravo set up. It sound's the type of business concept you are talking about.

If you are thinking of going down the co-op route a word with Christian would be in order. He is part of the GDSS (Group data scheme society). He posts here as Xian so maybe a PM would be in order? He is very au fait with the ins and outs of the co-op route.

John

spongebob

simonm2 wrote:

The second reason is that specifically in Loughrea sooner or later it would mean getting involved with our infamous FF town councillors, the guys who tried to rezone a little plot of land on the route of our bypass as soon as the NRA announced financing. They had to drop that little plan as the NRA told them to sod off. I'm not sure I could be civil with people I hold in such little respect.

I know the place well. The biggest kick that Loughrea could get is if fibre was laid when the sewers are redone in 2006 (after the bypass opens) .

That would be mega funky Simon. Do drop down to the Credit Union in Dunkellin St and ask to have a chat with them. They are very open and not a bunch of FF'ers at all.

The rezoners were the planning authority, the county council. The commissioners are a different lot TBH

Also check http://www.irishwan.org/ .

M

oscarBravo

Forget satellite - KCN is backhauled on DSL at the moment. It's limiting the growth of the project (to about 40 subscribers) until I can get at real backhaul, but it works and works well. A 2Mbit DSL from Netsource is just €160 on top of Eircom's €25 a month. You're not far from Galway, so a wireless backhaul to your pick of fibre providers would be an easy growth step.

Muck, dunno about the Loughrea Credit Union, but Ballina CU didn't want to know. If there's an Ulster Bank in Loughrea, you could talk to them. I have spoken to a commercial development manager at Ulster Bank HQ, and I believe she has given a heads-up to business managers around the country to be receptive to schemes like ours.

And yes, talk to Xian.

spongebob

Loughrea has DSL too . (pop 5000 or so nowadays)

My angle was that all the main streets in Loughrea WILL be dug up in the next few years to lay sewers.

It is also a decentralisation town and is on the next MAN list (about 40 towns on top of the 19)

It has the Western Digital Corridor running up Barrack Street FFS .

It has no Cable TV company for historic reasons to do with a deflector in Kilchreest. That may not last if the BBC goes digital in 2008

If Loughrea cannot plan on going straight to universal Fibre with those advantages and opportunities then I dont know where we could start TBH .

The CU covers about every person in the town and should be approached even if only as a matter of courtesy .

M

viking

Ripwave wrote:

There was an article on page 2 of todays (Tuesday) Irish Times entitled "Daingean gets together to bring in broadband"...

Yep, a Last Mile Wireless supplied service:

Daingean in Co Offaly was last night celebrating an innovative way of bringing broadband into homes and workplaces.

The small town is the first community of fewer than 1,500 people to avail of the Government's support for group broadband schemes. The North Offaly Development Board teamed up with Daingean Development Association to bring broadband to the area.

The cost of digging up roads to lay fibre-optic cable meant Daingean and many towns like it was never on the broadband agenda. Wireless broadband, however, offered a lifeline.

Daingean teamed up with an Athlone-based company, Last Mile Ltd, to provide wireless broadband. There are grants under the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources for towns of fewer than 1,500 people to set up group broadband schemes.

Mr Malachy Mangan of the the development board said that local dwellers and businesses could purchase equipment which would allow them to receive broadband.

The cost is €199 for installation, plus €39.99 a month. This offers always-on Internet access, and Mr Mangan said he expected a high level of interest.

"I know people who travel from Daingean to Dublin to work, but who could work at home if they had broadband.

"With more and more essential services now becoming available on-line, the need for broadband is increasing all the time," he said.

Last Mile Ltd is licensed to sell wireless broadband in Offaly, Longford, Roscommon and Westmeath.

Expecting soon good news shortly about Kinnegad's BB service.

Viking

simonm2

oscarBravo wrote:

Muck, dunno about the Loughrea Credit Union, but Ballina CU didn't want to know. If there's an Ulster Bank in Loughrea, you could talk to them. I have spoken to a commercial development manager at Ulster Bank HQ, and I believe she has given a heads-up to business managers around the country to be receptive to schemes like ours.

My original mention of credit unions wasn't really to do with financing. Rather I think CUs are the most amazing example of community self-help in Ireland, bar none. It is a fabulous concept and generally very well done. A comms model that worked parallel to them with the same underlying principles would be very interesting.

My fear in towns which are dormitories for larger places (like Loughrea/Galway) is that there is little or no sense of community. In our rush to build bungalow bliss and semi-detached heaven we have adopted an American model of buy, trade-up, move on, but without developing mechanisms for neighbours to get to know each other for whatever period they are actually resident in a given estate/area. The side effect of this is that people will just buy whatever service that is nationally available without really looking at other options. Much like a tourist who seeks out a Pizzahut in Italy.

spongebob

Call a public meeting in Loughrea and put the posters in Mc Inerneys so

M

Xian

Originally posted by OscarBravo
And yes, talk to Xian

Alright already! You'll wear out the handle! :rolleyes:

Simon, whatever route you take, it's success depends on initiative, so it'd be no help for you to be given the answers on a plate. You've enough to go on for the moment: call a meeting to guage interest; see if a service provider would be interested in partnering with the community - if they aren't, come to the GDSS and we'll put you on the track of setting up a community-owned network.

Go on, now. Shoo!

Paddy20

Also remember setting up any type of business, community or not, is War.

If you think of it in any other way you will be squashed.

Even the Co-operative movement has become a world wide business, and it has lost it's way, when it comes to helping ordinary people help themselves, especially when just starting up. They are bogged down in red-tape which is against the principals of the Co-op movement as started in Donegal.

Such a pity.