Bigley is killed

MadsL

I'm not making the suggestion that he was Special Forces or deep undercover, I just find it very odd that whilst the rest of the contractors are riding around with rent-a-cop, Bigley chooses to ride around unescorted - seems odd for someone with no military experience...

SkepticOne

Loads of people are being kidnapped in Iraq right now. If an Irish plumber was kidnapped it would be all over the media here and there would be huge pressure on Bertie to "do something" about it.

Maybe it will turn out that Bigley was a spook, but here hasn't been any reason put forward so far that isn't laughable.

"1. Can you think of any reason why the UK govt would spend money to get an 'engineer' released"

Huge media coverage plus campaign by his family as well as his personal pleas for Blair to do as the hostage takers say.

"2. He drove around unescorted - kind of unusual for a non-military contractor"

Quote from a Guardian article:

Another security guard said companies without the highest security in place were negligent and culpable.

"If it's a Middle Eastern company he was working for, you can forget it; they just don't take security seriously enough.

LegacyUser

moral of the story, don't try and get rich off the deaths and sufferings of tens and tens of thousands of innocents because you will get your just reward

the_syco

bananayoghurt wrote:

moral of the story, don't try and get rich off the deaths and sufferings of tens and tens of thousands of innocents because you will get your just reward

WTF? So what your saying is; since the Spanish engineers from the Spanish army who were fixing the pipes, etc, were pulled out, that the US should just "leave them (the Iraqi's) to their own devices", or send someone one in to finish off the pipe fixing?
And due to the high danger-risk, you'd get paid a nice sum of money for fixing the pipes.
Also, about the "just reward"... those who kill civilains who came over to fix the sh|t in Iraq, they should be shot. And as for the high pay, lets see you go over to a high danger zone for minimum pay of €9 an hour. Not worth getting your ass in the line of fire? Then why not a bonus... ie; people who go there get a nice salery.

LegacyUser

the_syco wrote:

WTF? So what your saying is; since the Spanish engineers from the Spanish army who were fixing the pipes, etc, were pulled out, that the US should just "leave them (the Iraqi's) to their own devices", or send someone one in to finish off the pipe fixing?
And due to the high danger-risk, you'd get paid a nice sum of money for fixing the pipes.
Also, about the "just reward"... those who kill civilains who came over to fix the sh|t in Iraq, they should be shot. And as for the high pay, lets see you go over to a high danger zone for minimum pay of €9 an hour. Not worth getting your ass in the line of fire? Then why not a bonus... ie; people who go there get a nice salery.

what are u rambling on about, last few days have shown there was about as much reason to invade iraq as there was to invade ireland, switch it around, f15 has just dropped a 1000 pound bomb on your house killing your mother, father, brother, sister, wife and kids. and some smiling foreigner paid by the guys who killed your loved ones says hi, im here to fix the house my friends just demolished, killing all your loved ones in the process, and guess what, im getting paid 20,000 dollars a week haha, id cut his head off

the_syco

bananayoghurt wrote:

what are u rambling on about, last few days have shown there was about as much reason to invade iraq as there was to invade ireland, switch it around, f15 has just dropped a 1000 pound bomb on your house killing your mother, father, brother, sister, wife and kids. and some smiling foreigner paid by the guys who killed your loved ones says hi, im here to fix the house my friends just demolished, killing all your loved ones in the process, and guess what, im getting paid 20,000 dollars a week haha, id cut his head off

So what your saying is that every person they killed is totally justified, and that they should kill every British & American civilian, untill the colon's go home, and the insugents can fight among themselves for which religous nut they want to run the country?

Also, the bombs going off, I suppose you think these are also alright? The ones that kill Iraqi civilains applying to jobs in the Iraqi Police.

LegacyUser

the_syco wrote:

So what your saying is that every person they killed is totally justified, and that they should kill every British & American civilian, untill the colon's go home, and the insugents can fight among themselves for which religous nut they want to run the country?

Also, the bombs going off, I suppose you think these are also alright? The ones that kill Iraqi civilains applying to jobs in the Iraqi Police.

there are no US or Brit civilians in iraq, if you are in the pay of the war machine you are the war machine and you are fair game, as for the bombs going off, they wouldn't be but for your friends

the_syco

bananayoghurt wrote:

there are no US or Brit civilians in iraq, if you are in the pay of the war machine you are the war machine and you are fair game, as for the bombs going off, they wouldn't be but for your friends

So; since its a war-zone, anyone who works there is working in/for the war-zone, thus is working for the "war machine". Nice logic.

As for the bombs, a few (and increasing number) are targeting Iraqi's who are trying to join the national police. Answer; if the Iraqi's aren't allowed to police themselves, who will? The colon's? Not for ever. The UN? Doubtfull, as theyr'e westerners.
And if you say these are also "fair game", explain why the insugents say they'll lay down their weapons & allow the Iraqi National Gaurd in? WHy let fair game police your town?

Finally, alot of contracts were issued to US companies, as its cheaper for a rented engineer to go in, rather than supply their own engineers. Thus there are US and Brit civilians in Iraq. The companies are paid by the US goverment, and of course they are. Who else would foot the bill to rebuild Iraq?

LegacyUser

the_syco wrote:

So; since its a war-zone, anyone who works there is working in/for the war-zone, thus is working for the "war machine". Nice logic.

not anyone who works there, anyone who is in the pay of a waring party, which all those so called civilians are, all these so called civilians are getting paid stupid amounts of money to do jobs soldiers would have to do, they free up soldiers to go and kill and hence are fair game

As for the bombs, a few (and increasing number) are targeting Iraqi's who are trying to join the national police. Answer; if the Iraqi's aren't allowed to police themselves, who will? The colon's? Not for ever. The UN? Doubtfull, as theyr'e westerners.

the national police, lmao, traitor scum is the word you are looking for

Finally, alot of contracts were issued to US companies, as its cheaper for a rented engineer to go in, rather than supply their own engineers. Thus there are US and Brit civilians in Iraq. The companies are paid by the US goverment, and of course they are. Who else would foot the bill to rebuild Iraq?

no, if you are in the pay of a waring party and the only reason you are is to free up soldiers who would have to do the job you are there for then you are NOT a civilian, you are a combatant and may be killed at will

AmenToThat

the_syco wrote:

So; since its a war-zone, anyone who works there is working in/for the war-zone, thus is working for the "war machine". Nice logic.

As for the bombs, a few (and increasing number) are targeting Iraqi's who are trying to join the national police. Answer; if the Iraqi's aren't allowed to police themselves, who will? The colon's? Not for ever. The UN? Doubtfull, as theyr'e westerners.
And if you say these are also "fair game", explain why the insugents say they'll lay down their weapons & allow the Iraqi National Gaurd in? WHy let fair game police your town?

Its Sadr's malitia that have agreed to let the Iraqi forces in.
Sadr is a Shai cleric and has no connection to those working out of the Sunni triangle or Zaqawi's mob.

And yes for many within the Sunni triangle anyone who has a connection with the uccupation is considered a target......knowing this anyone who goes to work in Iraq, particularly in that area of Iraq cant really complain if the **** hits the fan.
Thats not to say that I think what happened to Ken Bigley was right because it was a sick and horrible act Im just saying that those are the facts of life on the ground in that area of Iraq.

seamus

MadsL wrote:

1. Can you think of any reason why the UK govt would spend money to get an 'engineer' released

There's a huge difference between paying kidnappers to free someone, and paying an undercover agent to infiltrate and free someone. Allegedly, the UK and US special forces were already closing in the kidnappers - both to save Bigley, and to catch these guys so they can't kidnap any longer. If they can pay an agent to go in, get the guy out, and then tell the special forces where to find the rest of the kidnappers, they will.

It would seem he was given a change of clothes and a handgun, but ended up surrounded in an abandoned building. Kind of hard to fight your way out against a group of AK's, particularly when you're a civilian.

2. He drove around unescorted - kind of unusual for a non-military contractor

Not really. Foolish maybe, but they're not obliged to have an escort.

RichieC

Terrible thing to happen ANYONE, including the thousands of Iraqi Innocents.
Lets put a human face to all of these that are killed by American bombers, lets show there familys screaming in disbelief at the loss of their family members.

No? easier to call them all terrorists and continue to bomb them.
I'm disgusted that Irish people could side with an occupying force given our history.

I think the message is pretty clear: STAY OFF THE ARABIAN PENINSULA, YOUR NOT WELCOME, IGNORE AT YOUR OWN PERIL.

I dont condone these killings but I certainly wont make a song and dance of it while the people who actually have to live there are bombed to death, by an imperial force that want nothing but a puppet government that will hand the americans control of the natural recources that rightfully belong to the Iraqi people.

WHAT ABOUT THESE

ravenhead

Ok, I've just seen the video of this & no one, I mean no one deserves to die in this way, I personally think these people deserve to have the sh@t blown out of them for what they have done, even that would be too good a death for these savages!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

Carpo

ravenhead wrote:

no one deserves to die in this way

fair enough

ravenhead wrote:

these people deserve to have the sh@t blown out of them

eh?

ravenhead wrote:

even that would be too good a death for these savages!!!

So what wouldnt be too good? Beheading?

"if you gaze for too long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you" etc etc

(though I'm not sure if one run on sentance counts as 'too long')

ravenhead

Carpo wrote:

fair enough



eh?



So what wouldnt be too good? Beheading?

"if you gaze for too long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you" etc etc

(though I'm not sure if one run on sentance counts as 'too long')

I personally think that not enough is being done to stop these kidnappers, I know that the people of iraq are suffering aswell, but thesde men were in the country to help rebuild it, nothing more, I am sickned at peoples lack of concern about this, I would be more worried about these milliants than the us or british forces after all,we don't really know what these people are capible of, just my 50c anyway!

therecklessone

ravenhead wrote:

just my 50c anyway!

Its your €1 I'd be more concerned with. Just in case you missed Carpo's point...

ravenhead wrote:

Ok, I've just seen the video of this & no one, I mean no one deserves to die in this way

Except the kidnappers?

ravenhead wrote:

I personally think these people deserve to have the sh@t blown out of them for what they have done, even that would be too good a death for these savages!!!

Both quotes are from the same post!!! So what would be good enough for the kidnappers?

RichieC

I think if the world started taking these peoples plights seriosly before they were forced through injustice to take up arms this mess might never have happened. The way the U.S admin tells it these people are born terrorists with an ak47 in there hand. they shift the blame of this entire debacle over to people who have little or no control of the world that surrounds them. the united states has for year's blocked any form of arab nationalism because its a danger to the riches that lie under the ground they live on. they would rather have Dictators running the show that can suppress the longing for freedom that every human on the planet longs for. obviosly using the very human rights atrositys that they use as there reason to go to war.
Just look at there so called Allies in the middle east. why is saudi arabia allowed have a repressive regime that publicly beheads 200 or more people a year? and a human rights record that reads like a horror movie?
These facts are not lost on the "terrorists" and is the very reason they oppose the united states. not as we are to believe that "They hate our love of freedom and democracy" Bulls%it dosnt even begin to describe this assersion. there own democracy is on the verge of collapse, Its starting to look more and more like a police state.

People, if we follow these people into a never ending war, we are not only dooming ourselves, but our children will be forced to live on a planet, ruled by rouge state that considers Interrnational law with nothing but contempt and treats the universial declaration of human rights as a tool to beat weak states.

a good porportion of Americans even agree with this! is that not telling in itsself?

Not sure if this has been posted, but I think its a good simulation of exactly why the war on terror can never succeed.
http://www.starcarlton.com/Flash/September12.htm
You will need shockwave

Ok, I've just seen the video of this & no one, I mean no one deserves to die in this way, I personally think these people deserve to have the sh@t blown out of them for what they have done, even that would be too good a death for these savages!!!

So, you'd be willing to "punish" them in the same way that they wish to "punish" the west? How are you any different from them? Oh ya, you just wouldn't release the video.

I personally think that not enough is being done to stop these kidnappers

What do you suggest that could be done? Until they actually kidnap a target, they're not actually kidnappers, so they're unknown threats. So you provide escorts for the westerners in Iraq. Who in turn get killed or captured themselves...

I know that the people of iraq are suffering aswell, but thesde men were in the country to help rebuild it, nothing more, I am sickned at peoples lack of concern about this, I would be more worried about these milliants than the us or british forces after all,we don't really know what these people are capible of, just my 50c anyway!

Fair enough they're in the country to rebuild it. But everyone knows that any westerner/european in Iraq is a target. Its been known since before the actual invasion, but they still went there accepting the risks.

Actually I'd be more worried about the coalition. We know the resistance/terrorist groups will kill & torture. However, we're not sure how far the US is willing to take their war on terror, and they have alot more firepower to wave around.

People, if we follow these people into a never ending war, we are not only dooming ourselves, but our children will be forced to live on a planet, ruled by rouge state that considers Interrnational law with nothing but contempt and treats the universial declaration of human rights as a tool to beat weak states

Dude. This world of ours hasn't stopped having some wars at any stage in the last hundred years. Ignoring international law means squat since the US are not the first to do so, when it went against its interests. Soviet Russia, European countries, hell even Ireland has ignored EU laws when its chosen.

Its the way of humanity. Its not going to change. People will get tired of peace before they get tired of war.

scojones

ravenhead wrote:

Ok, I've just seen the video of this & no one, I mean no one deserves to die in this way, I personally think these people deserve to have the sh@t blown out of them for what they have done, even that would be too good a death for these savages!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

<ignorant comment>
The videos of the other two lads is more horrific than bigley's.
</ignorant comment>

nice contradiction.

radiospan

BBC article: Who watches Iraq murder footage over the web - and why?

sovtek

Deleted User wrote:

Dude. This world of ours hasn't stopped having some wars at any stage in the last hundred years. Ignoring international law means squat since the US are not the first to do so, when it went against its interests. Soviet Russia, European countries, hell even Ireland has ignored EU laws when its chosen.

Its the way of humanity. Its not going to change. People will get tired of peace before they get tired of war.

So I guess we should just give it up then. Screw the UN and the rule of law!
I could be wrong but it seems its usually a relative few that get every one else whipped up for a war...and it's the relative many that suffer as consequence. Guess which one most likly tires of peace.

LegacyUser

ravenhead wrote:

these men were in the country to help rebuild it, nothing more

and they had a shining ring oer their heads as they accepted the 50,000 dollars a week, as inwardly they prayed more bombs would fall on this ravaged country and so more silver would fall their way,

vultures getting fat off the dead is what they are

Pigman II

bananayoghurt wrote:

and they had a shining ring oer their heads as they accepted the 50,000 dollars a week, as inwardly they prayed more bombs would fall on this ravaged country and so more silver would fall their way,
vultures getting fat off the dead is what they are

I wouldn't go as far as to say they were 'wishing for more destrucion' that but I must admit I do get a bit heated when casual observers paint these construction workers as saints who didn't deserve to die BECAUSE they were 'only out there to 'help' the poor Iraqi's repair their county' as tho they're doing it out of the kindness of their collective hearts.

Nick Berg for example was making (If I recall?) $30,000 per month out there (at least 10 times what he would have made back home).

So I guess we should just give it up then. Screw the UN and the rule of law!

I haven't said to stop trying to make the world a better place, but I prefer to be realistic abt it. The Situation in Iraq is nothing new. People have been kidnapped before with gruesome consequences. The only real difference is the amount of media attention being given.

I could be wrong but it seems its usually a relative few that get every one else whipped up for a war...and it's the relative many that suffer as consequence. Guess which one most likly tires of peace.

And you don't wonder that the many follow so easily? The US had a decent amount of support from its citizens for the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. So it was a bit more than the few whipping up the many. People like to be lead, especially when they want to lash out at someone/something..

Sand

Who else is going to rebuild the country and establish law and order?

Al Queda? The UN ( who wont operate in Iraq without security that no one is willing to provide )? Santa Claus?

There isnt exactly a wealth of options.

Iraq needs engineers. It needs maintained and functioning infrastructure. Engineers are *required*. Al Zaqarwi and his cronies are desperately trying to stop that. Men like Bigley are exactly what Iraq needs. They are Al Zees enemies because they threaten his dreams for a Shia-Sunni civil war in Iraq. They were in a dangerous situation - hence the hazard pay. That doesnt invalidate the fact that they are doing good work over there, despite the knee jerk leftist hatred of anyone making more money than them.

They are certainly far ahead of the likes of Al Zee and his boys when it comes to the moral stakes. No one ever died from a functioning street lighting, operating phone lines or clean water.

I can understand that people are drunk on the hyped up hatred of Bush - but when their rants become so irrational they decide unarmed engineers like Bigley are getting whats coming to them for daring to be a vitally required foreign engineer in Iraq then they need to step back and recognise theyre so consumed with hatred that theyre willing to approve of acts that are designed to harm the Iraqi peoples interests.

How exactly does Iraq win from having engineers to intimidated to work there? From giving more power to monsters like Al Zaqarwi, who recently killed dozens of Iraqi children with suicide bombers as they played with American soldiers. But, I guess from a certain perspective those kids were treacherous turncoats and got what was coming to them as well.....

Sand

Sand wrote:

That doesnt invalidate the fact that they are doing good work over there, despite the knee jerk leftist hatred of anyone making more money than them.

I don't think theres much Hatred by posters here of the engineers that work over there. I certainly don't hate any of them. However, I don't like the way that people seem to believe that they're in the same category as charity workers in a warzone. They're there to make money, which they're entitled to. Its their choice to be there. I just don't hold with the crap that they're completly innocent, just because they're helping to rebuild the country.

I can understand that people are drunk on the hyped up hatred of Bush

is it hatred though>? I don't think so. I'm against Bush being in power. I'm against his administration. I was against the invasion of Iraq. I don't think I've posted a thread or response here yet that says that I hate him. Rather I'm concerned abt the implications of his rule.

but when their rants become so irrational they decide unarmed engineers like Bigley are getting whats coming to them for daring to be a vitally required foreign engineer in Iraq then they need to step back and recognise theyre so consumed with hatred that theyre willing to approve of acts that are designed to harm the Iraqi peoples interests

I agree. The idea that Bigley got what was deserved is a bit much. He didn't deserve it. Did he put him in the situation where he himself was in danger? Yes, he did.

Frank Grimes

Sand wrote:

Who else is going to rebuild the country and establish law and order?

Iraqis maybe? They managed to have a running functional country for the past few thousand years, I doubt they are in dire need of foreign contractors "helping them".
Granted, the security situation isn't going to improve in the short term without foreign help. But considering it was the same foreigners that actually caused the security situation, the least they can do is help them out.

sovtek

Sand wrote:

Iraq needs engineers.

Got any links to prove it?

omnicorp

It is terrible what they're doing in Iraq.
And now, George is going to use one of his
"oh-you-HAVE-to-vote-me-in-because-if-you-don't-terrorists-will-kill-youre"
speeches then go on to attack Mr. Kerry.
The F€cking C@nt

Sparks

Sand wrote:

Iraq needs engineers.

Oddly enough, prior to the war, Iraq had more engineers than any other middle east country, with the possible exception of Israel. Plus, those engineers, after a ten-year war with Iran and a ten-year bombing campaign by the US, were not only qualified in reconstruction, but had enormous amounts of practise at it.

Yet, all the reconstruction contracts went to Haliburton and Bechtel and other similar US conglomerates on no-bid sweetheart deals, and the Iraqis were relegated to sub-contracting work where they couldn't do decent work and make a profit. End result; shoddy work.