Bigley's killer controls ten Dublin agents

dathi1

Today's Buisness post.
http://www.sbpost.ie/web/DocumentView/did-172747043-pageUrl--2FThe-Newspaper-2FSundays-Paper.asp

I'm sure the majority of people wouldn't be surprised if Bin Laden and his whole entourage where here considering we have the best walk in and claim asylum joke immigration system in Europe.

MadsL

we have the best walk in and claim asylum joke immigration system in Europe.

Think so? How do you figure that one. Any evidence you care to present?

gandalf

dathi1 wrote:

Today's Buisness post.
http://www.sbpost.ie/web/DocumentView/did-172747043-pageUrl--2FThe-Newspaper-2FSundays-Paper.asp

I'm sure the majority of people wouldn't be surprised if Bin Laden and his whole entourage where here considering we have the best walk in and claim asylum joke immigration system in Europe.

Post your proof of this Daithi. I am fed up with people making grand claims like this on here with no backup.

You have 24 hours before I close this thread.

Hobbes

Why would a sleeper agent come in as an Asylum seeker? Most sleepers would have proper paperwork.

dathi1

<pounce!>Post your proof of this Daithi. I am fed up with people making grand claims like this on here with no backup.</pounce!>

you're talking about the immigration issue? the bin laden bit is taking the piss. I think our non EU illegal immigration figures taken on a European level speak for themselves. In my opinion I think most people would agree. Do I have to go out and get a scientific poll study on the streets myself to do this? or does my opinion not count?

gandalf

Well when you say

we have the best walk in and claim asylum joke immigration system in Europe

like its a verifyable fact I expect you to back it up Daithi!!!!!

I think our non EU illegal immigration figures taken on a European level speak for themselves.

I assume you have the figures to back this up as well or is that an opinion soundbite as well :rolleyes:

Captain Trips

dathi1 wrote:

you're talking about the immigration issue? the bin laden bit is taking the piss. I think our non EU illegal immigration figures taken on a European level speak for themselves. In my opinion I think most people would agree. Do I have to go out and get a scientific poll study on the streets myself to do this? or does my opinion not count?

1. [url] http://www.ecre.org/statistics/applications in industrialised countries 1982 - 2002.pdf[/url]
Shows Ireland has experienced a massive surge in asylum applications in comparison to other EU and non-EU countries.

2. Irish asylum statistics:
Asylum Statistics for Republic of Ireland:

Asylum Applications in Republic of Ireland
January - December 2003 7,483
January - December 2002 11,598
This decrease exceeds the 16% decrease worldwide noted by UNHCR

Recognised as refugees in 2003 1,170
345 at first instance
825 at appeal stage
Recognised as refugees 1994 - 2003 5,600

Top countries of origin for asylum seekers in 2003
Nigeria 39%
Romania 10%
Moldova 3%
DR Congo 3%
Czech Republic 2.5%
Unsuccessful applications 2003 2,410
Deportation orders effected in 2003 590
(less than 25% of those who received a deportation order)

Top countries of origin of those deported
Almost 30% came from 5 of the 10 countries about to join the European Union. Nationals from all accession countries can come freely to Ireland from 1 May 2004 onwards.
A further 30% came from Romania and Bulgaria, which are due to join the EU in 2007.

Backlog of unprocessed applications at 31/12/03
7,390
4,554 first instance
2,836 appeal

Dispersal and Direct Provision
At 31/12/03, 5,500 asylum seekers were resident in 63 centres in 24 counties in the Republic.

3. The Good Friday Agreement Loophole:
doesn't need to be quoted as we all know what happened with it. Approx. 6000 people gained citizenship through having a child in Ireland for the purpose of gaining citizenship since 1998.

Interestingly, in 1992 there were 39 asylum applications. In 2002 it was around 11,000.

4. http://www.irishrefugeecouncil.ie/stats.html
- of note here is that since May 2004 child benefits are no longer paid to asylum seekers if they arrived after May.


SO that's the stats on asylum seekers. Lots of them, majority are refused and of the refused deportations are minimal. However, every country in Europe has experienced increases in asylum applications over the same period, some more than others; in that regard, Ireland is in the "more" category as the numbers show over the 10 years.

naitkris

i agree with dathi1, Ireland has a problem - any country that does well and goes through a boom (Celtic Tiger in Ireland's case) will get a surge in asylum seeker applications.

Sweden had a surge in the 70's and has learnt from it and has a better asylum seeker process in place today then it did in the 70's when there was the initial surge. During the 70's and later led to many people who were not asylum seekers to get in to Sweden and enjoy the highest social welfare in the world and the one of the highest living standards in the world at the cost of the Swedish tax payer...

Redleslie2

dathi1 wrote:

I'm sure the majority of people wouldn't be surprised if Bin Laden and his whole entourage where here considering we have the best walk in and claim asylum joke immigration system in Europe.

They probably came in disguised as Nigerians. Or Gypsies. Or Nigerian Gypsies. Just like the guys who blew up that thing in america.

Hobbes

naitkris wrote:

i agree with dathi1, Ireland has a problem - any country that does well and goes through a boom (Celtic Tiger in Ireland's case) will get a surge in asylum seeker applications.

You did read the stats above you?

What percentage of 4,000,000 (approx) is 5,500?

What percentage of 5,500 is 1,170?

dathi1

But aren't we in the top 5 per head of population?? (I think no 3 in 2002) the only stat that matters?
My original intent on this thread was to discuss the Bpost article in the context of lack of proper immigration policy and extremist groups using here as a gateway.
oh and redslide...the sarcasms good but the ricin plot in the UK blows it away.

pete

dathi1 wrote:

I think our non EU illegal immigration figures taken on a European level speak for themselves.

Maybe they do, maybe they don't - but you specifically said "we have the best walk in and claim asylum joke immigration system in Europe".

Seeking asylum is not illegal immigration.

MadsL

Deportation orders effected in 2003 590
(less than 25% of those who received a deportation order)

Fails to account for those who left of their own accord after being issued a deportation order....


Oh, and what was your point again daithi1??

pete

Incidentally, for anyone interested in this report for reasons other than having a go at johnny foreigners in general, the entire article is available here: http://www.sbpost.ie/web/DocumentView/did-527396733-pageUrl--2FThe-Newspaper-2FSundays-Paper-2FNews-Features.asp

Denying that this was a classic piece of Garda propaganda, a detective claimed: "When we explain the situation here to our colleagues on the continent and in America, they just can't believe it.

I can just imagine them rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of opening EuroGitmo out on Spike Island.

MadsL

Except the SBP fails to report that the Ricin plot was based on very dubious evidence...

SBP wrote:

His information is believed to have assisted police in London who arrested six people in January 2003 in connection with the poison plot when traces of ricin were found in a makeshift laboratory. Fingerprints found on material seized by police led them to Dublin.

SBP

Sunday Times wrote:

The government is facing an embarrassing climbdown over its war on terror after prosecutors privately agreed to drop claims that the deadly poison ricin was found in London. Scientists at the Porton Down germ warfare laboratory have told the Crown Prosecution Service that toxicological tests on material recovered from a flat in north London mean they cannot prove ricin was present.

The alleged discovery of the ricin plot in January was reported by Downing Street, government officials and police as a significant escalation of the terrorist threat to Britain and appeared to bolster the case for war against Iraq.

Tony Blair cited it as "powerful evidence of the continued terrorist threat" during a Commons statement on the danger posed to the West by Saddam Hussein, the Iraqi leader, and his alleged arsenal of weapons of mass destruction.

However, critics are now expected to seize on the admission over the alleged ricin plot as further evidence that the government was engaged in a "spin offensive" in the run-up to the war in Iraq.

One source close to the case said: "The government said at the time that chemical weapons had been found in Britain for the first time. Defence lawyers have been told that they can no longer substantiate this statement. The case appears to be crumbling."

The Sunday Times Oct 5th

naitkris

Hobbes wrote:

You did read the stats above you?

What percentage of 4,000,000 (approx) is 5,500?

What percentage of 5,500 is 1,170?

i was not commenting on percentages of the population being asylum seekers... i was just pointing out how Ireland has suddenly become one of the top destination choices for asylum seeker applicants thanks to the boom Ireland has gone through... this is a fact.

whether the number of asylum seekers is a large or small % of the total population is one thing, but I am very sure that the % jump from the number of asylum seekers in Ireland in the early 1990's (pre-Celtic Tiger) to today would be huge (too tired to look up the %'s - maybe you can tell me Hobbes?) - this is the important statistic in my opinion.

the problem is how the Government deals with the influx of applications and whether it does so in a fair and proper manner - leaving out the gangsters, criminals, terrorists etc. and letting the real asylum seekers into the country. i see cases all the time in the newspaper, TV and on the radio of real asylum seekers denied asylum and also cases of people who are not at all asylum seekers but who have tricked their way into getting through the system.

MadsL

we see cases all the time of real asylum seekers denied asylum and also cases of people who are not at all asylum seekers but who have tricked their way into getting through the system.

Who is 'we' - and what evidence will you be presenting? Or is this just your 'informed' opinion?

naitkris

MadsL wrote:

Who is 'we' - and what evidence will you be presenting? Or is this just your 'informed' opinion?

ok "i" then - i'll give it a few decades before saying "we".

Sweden has had the ups and downs of the situation for far longer than Ireland and I am coming from the experience over there (I should have made that clearer).

pete

I am very sure that the % jump from the number of asylum seekers in Ireland in the early 1990's (pre-Celtic Tiger) to today would be huge (too tired to look up the %'s - maybe you can tell me Hobbes?)

Check a few posts up - the figures are quoted there.

in 1992 there were 39 asylum applications. In 2002 it was around 11,000

this is the important statistic in my opinion.

Why?

naitkris

pete wrote:

Check a few posts up - the figures are quoted there.

Why?

it highlights how Ireland's economic boom and increased standard of living has helped promote the surge in applications...

LegacyUser

Anyone capable of integrating here should be given entry, the capability of integration is easy to spot

chewy

again i read about the ricin being exggerrated, they found traces of what could be ricin which is made from what some sort of seed?

and this is one of there main points in the article what a load of balony...

of course there could be such guys here but its not what keeps me awake at night

[Preacher]

MadsL wrote:

Think so? How do you figure that one. Any evidence you care to present?

The fact that we are an island... miles west of anyone, especially worn-torn countries is proof enough for me.

Not that I have anything against immigrants, but the whole "refugees in Ireland" thing is a ****ing joke.

My 2 cents.

Hobbes

naitkris wrote:

i was not commenting on percentages of the population being asylum seekers... i was just pointing out how Ireland has suddenly become one of the top destination choices for asylum seeker applicants thanks to the boom Ireland has gone through... this is a fact.

Funny because as I read the stats that is not the case. Can you quote where you are getting your information from?

whether the number of asylum seekers is a large or small % of the total population is one thing, but I am very sure that the % jump from the number of asylum seekers in Ireland in the early 1990's (pre-Celtic Tiger) to today would be huge (too tired to look up the %'s - maybe you can tell me Hobbes?) - this is the important statistic in my opinion.

Your the one making the claim, it is up to you to find the proof.

it highlights how Ireland's economic boom and increased standard of living has helped promote the surge in applications...

Country gets better so more people want to come here? What point are you trying to get at?

arcadegame2004

Daithi is right in my opinion. Those looking for evidence that our immigration-system is being abused for malign reasons need only read the relevant article in the Sunday Business Post. Granted this in no way implies a link between the majority of asylum-seekers and terrorism, but the story of Al-Qaida attacks on Western countries follows the similar pattern e.g. Moroccan "asylum-seekers" responsible for the Madrid terror attacks.

We need a UN list of internationally-recognised terrorists, and then the UN needs to impose sanctions on countries granting asylum to such persons. That will help root out this, though it certainly won't solve it outright considering the widespread use of aliases and disguises by AQ operatives. We need to be careful though, not to play the game of certain countries who want to portray legitimate independence fighters as terrorists.

I see the critics of Daithi's point of view are calling for evidence. Al Capone would have been convicted far sooner if there had been adequate evidence, of course, and in the end it was tax-evasion and not murder that he was found guilty of. I think that sometimes in the absence of absolute proof there are still certain suspicions which are well-founded.

Sparks

Granted this in no way implies a link between the majority of asylum-seekers and terrorism, but the story of Al-Qaida attacks on Western countries follows the similar pattern e.g. Moroccan "asylum-seekers" responsible for the Madrid terror attacks.

In other words, there's no link, but let's sling mud anyway and see if any sticks.
Somehow I remain unconvinced...

We need to be careful though, not to play the game of certain countries who want to portray legitimate independence fighters as terrorists.

And vice versa?

I think that sometimes in the absence of absolute proof there are still certain suspicions which are well-founded.

And if I were to have a well-founded suspicion, but no absolute proof, that (hypothetically) you were a card-carrying member of the KKK and the BNP, a racist, a bigot, a sexual deviant, an alcoholic, an idiot (in the legal sense), and an all-round unpleasant person; would I then be entitled to act on that suspicion? Of course not. So why should suspicion be used as a basis for issuing more serious sanctions in the real world?

naitkris

Hobbes wrote:

Funny because as I read the stats that is not the case. Can you quote where you are getting your information from?

do not know what so funny - could you elaborate Hobbes?

Hobbes wrote:

Your the one making the claim, it is up to you to find the proof.

will do:

in 1992 there were 39 asylum applications. In 2002 it was around 11,000

this works out 28,200% increase in applications in only 10 years space - taken from previous posters quote...

Hobbes wrote:

Country gets better so more people want to come here? What point are you trying to get at?

you get more gangsters, drug lords, criminals and TERRORISTS etc. applying at the same time and the Government has to change from taking in only small number of applications (39 in 1992 for instance) to being able to handle 10's of thousands all of a sudden - how will they make the right choices in who to let in and who to not let in all of a sudden?

I am just outlining how the Government is not used to and as well equiped to handling this new sitiuation all of a sudden which leads to some wrong people getting in and some right people being refused. I am coming from the point of view of Sweden (as a Swede) who has had this situation for far longer than Ireland - Ireland will realise the benefits and negatives of the whole situation much further down the line as Ireland has only recently been taking in large numbers of asylum seekers...

Sparks

Naitkris, when did we see people shift from emigration to immigration in this country?

Hobbes

naitkris wrote:

do not know what so funny - could you elaborate Hobbes?

Sorry but you don't get to answer a question with a question. Either post where you are getting your facts from or don't bother posting.

So can you point out where you got the belief that Ireland is now the number Asylum seeker place in Europe?

this works out 28,200% increase in applications in only 10 years space - taken from previous posters quote...

Which means absolutly nothing. You have shown that more people want to come here now that the country has a bit of wealth.

you get more gangsters, drug lords, criminals and TERRORISTS etc.

Again can you back this up with facts?

likewise with the earlier OBL flunkies using the Asylum process. If anything they prefer to avoid that. For example 9/11, all the hijackers had valid visas and none of them were asylum seekers.

how will they make the right choices in who to let in and who to not let in all of a sudden?

The same way they have always done, just with more workload (and prehaps more people employed to handle it).

I am just outlining how the Government is not used to and as well equiped to handling this new sitiuation all of a sudden which leads to some wrong people getting in and some right people being refused.

I will say again, where are you basing this fact off? Or is it just personal opinion? If anything the stats seem to say that less Asylum seekers are being approved then before.

Ireland will realise the benefits and negatives of the whole situation much further down the line as Ireland has only recently been taking in large numbers of asylum seekers...

A couple of thousand is hardly a large number.

Hobbes

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Those looking for evidence that our immigration-system is being abused for malign reasons need only read the relevant article in the Sunday Business Post.

Because when ever you feel the need to prove your point nothing works better then linking to an Opinion piece in a sunday newspaper.

With quotes like..

"Informed sources told this newspaper"
"The man has been identified by the New York Times, ABC News and news agencies in Japan"
"A lawyer for the British Home Secretary"

What is wrong with these? I will tell you, the piece fails to point out factual sources to back up the claims.

The piece also only mentions 1 Asylum seeker.

Granted this in no way implies a link between the majority of asylum-seekers and terrorism, but the story of Al-Qaida attacks on Western countries follows the similar pattern e.g. Moroccan "asylum-seekers" responsible for the Madrid terror attacks.

Amazing you actually contridict yourself.

We need a UN list of internationally-recognised terrorists, and then the UN needs to impose sanctions on countries granting asylum to such persons.

Which would be fun, considering a number of countries in the UN have a list of "terrorists" which other countries are keeping no problem. For example the US has quite a few in its borders who are wanted for terrorist acts.

naitkris

i give up - you win Hobbes.

however, let me say that the reason i am saying what i was is because we had these kind of discussions in Sweden in the 70's, 80's etc. and people asked like yourself Hobbes for the facts and figures to support the theory that all wasn't rosy with the policy of the Government, yet these figures weren't all available at that time (the first decade or so of the mass surge in asylum seekers - it's too early to see the positives and negatives). today however Sweden has realised it's mistakes and has a much tighter and fairer asylum seeker and immigration process because of it - allowing those who deserve asylum etc. in and those who want to cause problems out.

just as a sample of one of many problems that have occured to due to bad asylum and immigration policies - in Norway only around 10% of people in it's jails are actually Norwegian - Sweden isn't too different. This may be partly because the jails in Sweden are like a hotel suite (you have your own TV, bathroom and other luxuries etc) and so in many ways a much better life for some people, but still - its a massive cost and problem for Sweden to fund the jails and to solve the crimes etc... i could go on and on...

Back on topic...

...the topic is how a number of terrorist agents who have found their way into Ireland and I believe i.m.o. that this is partly because of Ireland's bad asylum policy and bad immigration control among primarily - I may be wrong on that, but I'd like to hear other reasons from people as to why they THINK (opinion) or KNOW (have facts) this has happened.

not having the facts and figures to convince you or anyone else Hobbes does not bother me in the least... i am giving an OPINION and personally feel that not every post a person makes on the Politics forum or any other forum on boards.ie has to be backed up with facts and figures before posting.