Quinn Direct Racist policy

MadsL

Quinn Direct are at it again, once again they are constructively refusing non-nationals insurance with inflated quotes for non-nationals; Also reported by the Irish Times.

I have had assurances from Quinn Direct that they were to stop this disgusting, unethical practice, but it appears that their manager has been overrulled by the board.

Anyone care enough to write to them, I'm composing a protest letter...
and also ringing Sylvia Coldrick to ask what the 'mistake' was.

http://www.donegalnews.com/newsindex.htm

A leading insurance company who twice quoted an Indian national in the region of €8,000 for car insurance have claimed it was a mistake.

Thangasamy Bagavathya (27) from Tamil but now living and working in Letterkenny was flabbergasted when he got the quote from Quinn Direct Insurance last week for just under €8,000. The first quote was for a Fiat Punto and on Monday he got an even bigger shock when he was quoted €8,324 for a larger Toyota Corolla car. Thangasamy's friend, Brendan Connaghan first thought it was a mistake, but when he phoned Quinn Direct back again they assured him that it was correct. .
'Six of us were sitting around when he came off the phone and we told him it must have been a mistake or that he could not understand them properly,' explained Brendan.

'So I rang back and told them (Quinn Direct) I was ringing on behalf of my friend and I was given the same quote. I could not believe it, I asked the operator why it was so expensive and she said that it was an automated system and she had no control over it. As Quinn Direct is a large company I figured I would try a little experiment and phoned back giving the exact same information except stating that the quote was for me- I was born and raised in Donegal. I supplied everything else the same, even my colleague's date of birth. The quote I received was around €1,800. So it seems to me that if you are from India then Quinn Direct will charge you an additional €6,100. This type of thing should not happen,' he said.
Thangasamy works for a large IT Company based in Letterkenny and moved here from India about three months ago. He recently completed his Driving Theory Test and just received his Provisional driving licence.

He said that Quinn Direct had quoted him approximately €7,995.00, third party fire and theft cover, for a 1995 Fiat Punto 1100cc with 70,000 miles. He decided not to buy the Punto and bought a Toyota Corolla 1,300cc instead and then rang back for another quote on Monday and was quoted the higher price.

'Brendan asked them why it was so expensive and they could not give him an answer. He gave my details but only said he was from Ireland and there was a massive difference. I do not know why they give me this quote. I am finally going with FBD as they are much cheaper and am delighted with price,' he said.

'I moved from India three months ago to take up a position as a software engineer with a multi-national IT company in Letterkenny,' Thangasamy said.

This reporter made a call from the Donegal News office on Tuesday and, like Brendan, I gave Thangasamy's same details except for his name and nationality. I was quoted just €2,157, a difference of €6,167. Thangasamy got other quotes which averaged around the €2,500 mark and finally accepted FBD quote which was a competitive €1,506. And he added that he has no bad feelings against Quinn Direct, but just could not understand why they had quoted him so much.

Mr Phil Watt, CEO of the National Consultative Committee on Racism and Interculturalism (NCCRI) an expert body on racism issues said '"It could be a case of discrimination on the basis of nationality and he should take case to the Equality Authority under the Equal Status Act,' he said.

'Unfortunately we hear a lot of stories about financial institutions discriminating or putting up hurdles in the paths of non nationals. Hurdles such as requests for ID then further requests for ID and generally trying to put people off. This matter needs to be investigated to ensure that there has been no discrimination,' he concluded.

Speaking on Thursday a spokeswoman for Quinn Direct, Sylvia Coldrick, said that they had discovered a mistake in the 'rate instruction' for overseas drivers.
'Unfortunately, someone like yourselves had to bring this to our attention but we have identified it now and are going to rectify it,' she said.

The revised quote from Quinn Direct for Thangasamy Bagavathya is €3,958, still some way short of his lowest quote from FBD.

parsi

While they are at it fixing the "rate instruction for overseas drivers" could they please sort out their rate instructions for natives ?

They have to be the dearest around...

MadsL

"They have to be the dearest around..."

When they don't want your business - it's called cherry picking.

SantaHoe

This just in:
INSURANCE COMPANY IN UNFAIR DISCRIMINATION SHOCKER

Not in the least bit surprising.

mike65

Why would they want to know your nationality? Also its not a racist policy rather its a nationalist policy (not that thats any better). The best thing to do with Quinn Direct apart from posting a thread is simply not use them.

Mike.

parsi

MadsL wrote:

"They have to be the dearest around..."

When they don't want your business - it's called cherry picking.

and its racist when its somebody that isn't Irish ?

StRiKeR

want to hear another story about Quinn Direct, couple of yrs ago me and my dad was insured with them, I always drive sports car, and under my dads policy, one day, I bought a new 2 seater convertible, and got pull for no tax as I only just got the car, but insured with QD, i was asked to produce the insurance, there was a mistake when they transfered it from the last car, my name didnt show as a name driver, sh*t, got brough up in court for that! my solicitor called them about it, they turned around and said we were not insure with them at all, i ended up apealling the case as I got disqualify for 2 yrs, at the end, we got no respond from QD, but the judge can see that QD basically made a mistake but dont want to answer, so the 2 yrs disqualification was removed, but they still gave me 4 yrs endorsment, we are still trying to get a respond from them as I am not satisfy with the result, I didnt do anything wrong, I dont deserve that!

BrianD3

Motor insurance companies have been openly discriminating against people (read young males) on the basis of their age and sex for years, using the loophole in equality law whereby discrimination is acceptable if it's based on acturial statistics.

If they can get away with this, there's no logical reason why they wouldn't discriminate on the basis of race or nationality as well. All they have to do is ask everyone applying for insurance what their nationality is. This will then allow stats to be generated and discrimination to be practiced.

If Quinn Direct did happen to be found to be in breach of equality legislation with regards to racism, then it would be a scandal if they weren't pulled up on the grounds of sexism and ageism also.

BrianD3

MadsL

Why would they want to know your nationality?

So that they can effectively refuse (ie give you a ridiculous quote) your business

its not a racist policy rather its a nationalist policy

Eh?

The best thing to do with Quinn Direct apart from posting a thread is simply not use them.

No the best thing to do is to send them a letter complaining about this practice, complain to the Equality Commission, The Irish Insurance Federation, the Data Protection Commissioner, and all media until they stop this very dodgy practice. And not use them (tell them that in a letter)

MadsL

parsi wrote:

and its racist when its somebody that isn't Irish ?

It is discrimination on racist grounds (read the article again)

Clearly the only reason this bloke got quoted eight grand was that he wasn't Irish, ...had he been Irish, it would have been six grand cheaper.

mike65

Its discrimination on Nationality grounds

Mr Phil Watt, CEO of the National Consultative Committee on Racism and Interculturalism (NCCRI) an expert body on racism issues said '"It could be a case of discrimination on the basis of nationality and he should take case to the Equality Authority under the Equal Status Act,' he said.

Mike.

MadsL

The UN defines racism as
"any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life."
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Racism

Can we stop the semantics now....

parsi

If you read the article you will see that the friend got a quote of around 1800 and the reporter got a quote of 2157 all based on the same details which would imply that the QD rating system may be done using quickpicks... so maybe its racist against differing parts of Donegal (not beyond the realms of possibility..) ?

MadsL

I suspect the friend forgot the provisional licence bit....

The reporter was possibly more careful...

Farls

I'm not sure about this, but my uptake on the situation is they want to know your nationality just like they want to know your county, different places have higher/lower crime rates etc.

Anyway quite pleased to see their doing their bit to keep the foreigners out.

Farlz

Boggle

Discriminate against men ......... fine by you.

Discriminate against non-nationals ....... unacceptable?!?!


Dont worry, push come to shove they'll cook the statistics to show an increased risk if you are black..... Will that make you happy about the discrimination? Whay dont you start a letter writing protest about something that would actually benefit a higher % of people?

MadsL

Discriminate against men ......... fine by you.

When did I ever say that? I was very disappointed that the EU proposal did not go through.

Discriminate against non-nationals ....... unacceptable?!?!

Absolutely. Unless you care to justify it like the idiot above as keeping the foreigners out (I just hope he was being sarcastic)

Dont worry, push come to shove they'll cook the statistics to show an increased risk if you are black..... Will that make you happy about the discrimination?

Of course not, but at least then we can have some actual figures to argue against, at the moment this is the only insurance co. to discriminate in this way.

Whay dont you start a letter writing protest about something that would actually benefit a higher % of people?

That's the whole point about minorities you see, it is the responsibility of the majority in any decent, civilised society, to ensure that the rights of minorities are not trampled on. Of course, that assumes that the citizens of a country don't take the "I'm all right Jack, and feck the rest of ye" attitude that seems to prevail every time I bring up this topic. In fact, I seem to get more criticism than the Insurance company. I wonder why you feel I am "wrong" to bring this to your attention. Or do you have your own 'feelings' about foreigners and their rights in this country. Please explain why you feel critical enough to bother to reply to this thread...


And Farls, your second comment doesn't even deserve a response, but as far as requiring information about your nationality - if this is SO important then why does only ONE insurance company do this?

uberwolf

Way I see this, insurance companies assess your risk based on how your profile fits in with people they've previuosly insured and extrapolate how great a risk you're likely to be. If age, gender, social class can be used so can race.
I hate people getting up in arms over PC stuff and not over other equally discrimantory stuff.

Health insurance isn't allowed discriminate based on age because it would work against the more senior. The young simply haven't made a political issue of car insurance.

Merrion

The only solution on this would be a law that required each insurance company to publish their rating tables and each broker to publish their commission...so long as this information is private to the company it can be abused.

MadsL

I hate people getting up in arms over PC stuff and not over other equally discrimantory stuff.

So by that logic you hate people who step in if they see a guy being beaten up by a gang of scumbags, when they should be concentrating their energies on the wider problem of violencein society.

Can you really not spare the time to write an email, cus you are out there 'fighting discrimination'??

That doesn't make sense to me.

Boggle

MadsL wrote:

Please explain why you feel critical enough to bother to reply to this thread...

Firstly, apologies if I seemed overly critical as its a subject that just boils my blood. Secondly, I am not criticising that you want to defend the rights of minorities rather that you apear to be cherry-picking the fashionable causes. My main gripe is that while so called bleeding hearts (generalisation - not personal) will bend over backward to help the so called "poor black-man", most dont even look sideways when they see the open discrimination against large sections of the population ... i.e. young males.

If you want to start a letter writing camaign against discrimination in the ins industry then do so - but do it for ALL discrimination, not just the fashionable ones.....

MadsL

Look, there's very little I can do as far as age/sex discrimination, as the right to do this is enshrined in legislation at the moment - the movement to change the sex discrimination aspect did not get the support it needed, although I did support recent efforts to challenge this through the EU, and have attended MIJAG meetings (what have YOU done about this, btw? Mr Perfect?) and also how is this 'fashionable' - when all I get on this forum is criticism on the issue.

However the point is that Quinn Direct are abusing their position as
1. Data Controllers;
Information gathered has a statatory responsibility to be;
"the data shall be adequate, relevant and not excessive in relation to the purpose or purposes for which they were collected or are further processed"
- section 2(1)(c)(iii) of the Act

Clearly Nationality is inadequate for the purpose, irrelevant and excessive.

2. Cherry picking clients;
ie No non-nationals need apply - therefore behaving unethically.

3. Are likely in breach of Equality legislation on Nationality grounds.

But I should ignore all of this because it is a 'fashionable' issue. I'm having trouble following your logic again...

Kaskade

StRiKeR wrote:

there was a mistake when they transfered it from the last car, my name didnt show as a name driver, sh*t

quinn direct require written confirmation to remove a named driver, when my mother passed away they wouldn't take here off the policy without a letter or a fax so ask them to product this request.

uberwolf

MadsL wrote:

So by that logic you hate people who step in if they see a guy being beaten up by a gang of scumbags, when they should be concentrating their energies on the wider problem of violencein society.

fair enough, logic in there alright.

MadsL wrote:

Can you really not spare the time to write an email, cus you are out there 'fighting discrimination'??

I simply don't care enough about this instance in question. My prejudiced feelings would be that there could very well be a higher risk factor with foreign nationals - if the insurance compnies have satisfied themselves that is the case then work away TBH. Either stop their capacity to discriminate on all grounds or leave them work away. My PC comment is a reference to this. You're proposing a half way house on discrimination, or at least I'm inferring that, because this appalls you or drives you to action that you care more about this then the young being discriminated against, or males being discriminated against.

MadsL wrote:

That doesn't make sense to me.

I hope this maybe clears up my angle? Even if doesn't justify it to you.


edit: I see you've addressed some of this in posts I hadn't seen since I started formulating my response.

Farls

No sarcasm in my last post.

I'm also with boggle on this, he states something closer to home that is a LOT more important than your grievances.

anyway take it up with MIJAG they'll know what way to go.

Farlz

MadsL

I simply don't care enough about this instance in question. My prejudiced feelings would be that there could very well be a higher risk factor with foreign nationals - if the insurance compnies have satisfied themselves that is the case then work away TBH.

And they are certainly prejudiced feelings - there simply isn't the sample size to say that there is a statistically accurate level of risk associated with foreign national drivers - I mean just how many drivers do you honestly think QD have insured given the level of premiums they have been charging. Also there is the question of appropriate level of loading, I would find it hard to believe that a Tamil National is four times more of an insurance risk than the Irish driver. Note the fact that no UK company has established Nationality as a basis for Insurance risk.

Either stop their capacity to discriminate on all grounds or leave them work away. My PC comment is a reference to this. You're proposing a half way house on discrimination, or at least I'm inferring that, because this appalls you or drives you to action that you care more about this then the young being discriminated against, or males being discriminated against.

I'd love to see this happen, and I am happy to take any opportunity to make this happen, but I am talking in this instance about a single company deviating from standard practice in this regard. That is worth complaining and protesting about. Would you be prepared to defend a bank that charged foreign nationals higher bank charges because 'all bank charges are too high anyway'.

Perhaps you would also like to list your actions to protest discrimination on age/sex in the insurance industry, or is your horse too high to stoop that low?

StRiKeR

Kaskade wrote:

quinn direct require written confirmation to remove a named driver, when my mother passed away they wouldn't take here off the policy without a letter or a fax so ask them to product this request.

we did request for everything, but rather its was me of my dad or my solicitor calling, they just say the person looking after that is busy and that they'll call us back but never happened!

MadsL

Farls wrote:

No sarcasm in my last post.

I'm also with boggle on this, he states something closer to home that is a LOT more important than your grievances.

anyway take it up with MIJAG they'll know what way to go.

Farlz

Then your attitude is what allows these companies to get away with this shit, but you are probably the first to complain when you sense that the Irish are being discriminated against. Typical.

Boggle

MadsL wrote:

what have YOU done about this, btw? Mr Perfect?

Mailed a few politicians last year or year before - no reply. Signed up to MIJAG - they're being ignored. Mailed the equality commissioner in EU - was told about the bill in progress and mistakenly assumed that the EU wouldn't be bullied by big business. Have a job (needed to pay my high ins) so cant exactly afford to spend my days outside the DAIL protesting....

MadsL wrote:

1. Data Controllers;
Information gathered has a statatory responsibility to be;
"the data shall be adequate, relevant and not excessive in relation to the purpose or purposes for which they were collected or are further processed"
- section 2(1)(c)(iii) of the Act

The data they use to discriminate against males is hardly adequate ... its just enough to tell the story they want to hear. You could also factor in other things like education, criminal record, previous driving record.

MadsL wrote:

2. Cherry picking clients;
ie No non-nationals need apply - therefore behaving unethically.

Again, I do not object to you being concerned about this - in fact I applaud the fact that you are willing to do something about it. What I am saying is that there are huge amounts of the population being discriminated but, because it is not as fashionable, it is widely ignored and in fact generally applauded.


...and again I apologise for the fact that I appeared to have a personal dig at you earlier as it read alot worse than it was intended - but saying you cant follow my logic is a bit silly. If I am unclear please let me know specifically what you are unclear about and I will explain myself.

Farls

MadsL wrote:

Then your attitude is what allows these companies to get away with this shit, but you are probably the first to complain when you sense that the Irish are being discriminated against. Typical.

Thats because this is our country, so until the bigger things are sorted out ie. what bobble said. I don't see the point in making a big scene about the minority.

I'm sure if you complain enough you'll get some sort of social welfare to pay for your insurance and probably a state car to bring you around that the rest of us and our parents/children will have to pay for. :rolleyes:

Farlz

RuggieBear

Farls wrote:

Thats because this is our country...

Oh dear god...... :eek:

On the discrimination of foreign nationals...could it be based on not holding an irish drivers licence or something. I was watching a british police show the other night and an officer stopped an iranian national for some dodgy driving and it turned out his iranian drivers licence isn't valid in Britain...