the litter act, what a joke

Zaph0d

Years ago a friend of mine borrowed my car and I got his litter fine in the post afterwards. He was just as angry as the thread starter. We sat down and estimated the number of hours driving he had done in his life and how many fags he smoked per hour while driving. He felt better when he realised he had dumped many thousands of cigarettes onto the streets and this was his only fine.

Some cigarette smokers are responsible for a large proportion of Irish litter. They start by ripping the cellophane top off the box, then chuck it on the ground, then rip out the foil pull-tab and chuck it on the ground, then chuck 20 cigarette butts on the ground and then chuck the box on the ground. Why should non-smokers pay for cleaning this up?

FX Meister

Victor wrote:

Actually, I'm not sure about this, AFAIK the burden of proof for littering offences has been reduced below the criminal "beyond a reasonable doubt".

Victor is right, a girl I worked with told me how her boyfriend had been done for throwing his fagbox on the ground, the postman told him to pick it up, he told the postie to fu*k off and the postie reported him and he had to pay the fine.

unkel

FX Meister wrote:

Victor is right

Nope. Think about it. Mr A doesn'lt like Mr B and reports him to the Gardai for littering. Can't be proved either way as it is Mr A's word against Mr B's word. Not really fair or is it?

If there is evidence of litter and it can be tracked back to Mr B, that is of course a different matter as there is proof

See
here for the details

You can be issued with an on-the-spot fine by a Litter Warden appointed by your local authority or by a member of the Gardai.

mike65

You know I wish this forum had a swear box!

Anyways if you break the law and are caught then you have no-one to blame except yourself. The law is right including when its wrong. I am an enthusiast for litter enforcement. This is a foul dirty country, so much so when you come across an area or village that makes an effort to keep the place clean and tidy it really sticks out.

Mike.

unkel

mike65 wrote:

The law is right including when its wrong

That sums it up nicely

However a legal system is only sustainable over time if it is seen to be reasonably consistent and fair. Laws must also be enforced

So on the one hand randomly and rarely fining people for polluting at the lowest possible level and on the other hand seemingly doing nothing about major organised criminal pollution like the example about the travellers or dangerous medical waste in illegal landfills does not help sustain that system

BrianD

Serves you right damo. Bout time little louts like you were dealt with. Do you know how long a cigarette butt takes to decompose?

MadsL

Interesting point. If I throw an apple out of the window is it littering because it is biodegradable. Does the same therefore applies to rollups!

seamus

MadsL wrote:

Interesting point. If I throw an apple out of the window is it littering because it is biodegradable.

Yes it is still littering.

unkel

Oi Mike, were you editing my post? :eek:

Don't think you changed anything, did you?

FX Meister

Ok well I guess that the authorities involved in this were just bending the rules then? And then they were bending them when the other guy that started this topic was busted?

Upon closer inspection doesn't that link just say "You can be issued with an on-the-spot fine by a Litter Warden appointed by your local authority or by a member of the Gardai.", so they issue the fine, not the person spotting you littering. Surely if you did litter you wouldn't want to challenge the fine and end up having to pay a €3000 fine?

unkel wrote:

Nope. Think about it. Mr A doesn'lt like Mr B and reports him to the Gardai for littering. Can't be proved either way as it is Mr A's word against Mr B's word. Not really fair or is it?

If there is evidence of litter and it can be tracked back to Mr B, that is of course a different matter as there is proof

See
here for the details

tinofapples

Good enough for you , that's what your ashtray should be used for .

jlang

Serves you right. Now just be thankful you don't drive a company car or you could be done for smoking in a workplace too. If it is a company car, start being very quiet now.

Personally I can't see how people can afford to smoke even without any the litter fines.

damo

im not denying the charge for a start, and i know litter is wrong, but i see people litter every day and i would never report anyone, i dont know the person, i dont know their financial situation, i dont know whats going on in their lives, i just wouldent ever do it. i wonder how many of you who have criticised me for my offence have walked thir dogs down the street and let them take a crap on the pavement, as far as im concerned thats real littering and that deserves a fine (i still wouldent rat someone up for it).anyway it doesentt matter, i think the person who reported me was a real scumbag and no ones views will change my opinions

Victor

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BrianD

damo wrote:

im not denying the charge for a start, and i know litter is wrong, but i see people litter every day and i would never report anyone, i dont know the person, i dont know their financial situation, i dont know whats going on in their lives, i just wouldent ever do it. i wonder how many of you who have criticised me for my offence have walked thir dogs down the street and let them take a crap on the pavement, as far as im concerned thats real littering and that deserves a fine (i still wouldent rat someone up for it).anyway it doesentt matter, i think the person who reported me was a real scumbag and no ones views will change my opinions

Damo you have an odd view on life ... no wonder this country is in a mess!! I suppose you would step over the body of a run over pedestrian or quietly ignore the grannie being mugged?? If I say you littering and could identify you I would be onto the relevant authorities asap. Their financial position is irrelevant.

I hate the word "scumbag" but your actions and opinions clearly put you in that category in my opinion.

SantaHoe

Wow, more high horses here than at the grand national. :rolleyes:
Nobody is perfect, not even the self-proclaimed boards.ie morality police.
I don't disagree with the points made, but the condescending tone of some of the posts here is enough to make me puke.

Anyway, a good question was asked there earlier... do you think it'll stop you throwing butts in future?
I'm increasingly careful about butt disposal in the last few years, I know some people who've gotten on-the-spot fines for dropping ciggarette ends on the ground... even if you're dropping the butt into an already existing pile of other peolpes butts.
Usualy I just stub it out, fold it into a ball and keep it in my pocket until I can find a bin.
As seemingly unfair as it is to be made an example of, eventually enough people will know someone who's been fined and people will think twice about where they toss rubbish.

A few days ago I was out in a lovely patch of woodland in a county that shall remain nameless, and there was bits of cars, lawn-mowers, bags of refuse... destroyed an otherwise beautiful little woods... now I'm not pointing any fingers, but surely there are bigger fish to fry in all fairness.
Personally I'd rather see people being put to work on these already existing destroyed sites than wandering around the streets of Dublin looking for people who may or may not drop a reciept out of their pocket while fumbling for bus change.

And what about that ashtray damo... I'm puzzled.

LFCFan

One of my pet hates is people throwing butts out their car window. It's disgusting, adds to an already terrible litter problem and is done by people with little or no regard for their environment. It's not like they don't have an alternative. ie. The Ashtray in the car??????? Why not use a device for what it's meant for? Other posters talk about going after the bigger fish when it comes to littering and this is true, but I think Zero Tolleration for litter louts is the way to go. If we can stop the small fry dirtying our streets it may start a new acceptance in Irish society that Littering is wrong. It should start with educating kids on the subject.

egan007

damo wrote:

i recieved a notice in the post the other day that i was being fined 125 euro for throwing the end of a ciggarette out the window of my car on gardner st in dublin, someone had reported me to the cops when they saw me doing it at a traffic light and took down my registration. this same person was also willing to testify in court should i refuse to pay the fine.

now im not a violent person at all.....but id really love to get my hands on this person and (if its a male) smack him around and then take 125 euro off him to pay the fine with, i mean what kind of ****ing low-life would actually take down my reg and go to the guards over something like this? obviously someone with nothing better to do with their ****ty life than to go around getting hard working honest people like myself fined for the most minute offence, i wonder how many cig butts were thrown out of car windows in ireland on that day, not to mention how many were thrown on the pavements by people, and this asshole had to ruin my day and get me fined 125 euro? talk about a needle in a haystack

not that im pro-litter or anything but jesus christ a ciggarette but is hardly litter seeing as people come to sweep the streets every morning, im sure the one i threw out the window that day ended up in a bin somewhere....what a sick joke

YAHOO!!!!!!!

Seth Brundle

headline in todays Oirish Times:- Dublin is dirty, dear, dangerous, EU survey told

Jiji

I support you Damo, I have been done myself twice for the cigarette butt thing.

Although I agree that throwing a cigarette butt is a bad thing and is - minor - littering, what I disagree with is firstly the level of the fine.

BUT, the issue at stake here is a culture of delation and denunciation.

I don't think this is a good thing in society, and it is not limited to littering, howz my driving, etc...

There are already 1800 number for the revenue, go snitch on your neighbor, etc...

This is generally a bad thing in my view, the enforcement agency fine you, that's fair, but a culture of denunciation is something else.

Jl

LFCFan

Jiji wrote:

I have been done myself twice for the cigarette butt thing.

Good! The more that get done for it the more that might get the message that it's a disgusting filthy thing to do. You may think that a couple of butts is minor but when you have 200,000 drivers doing it, it's anything but minor. On average I'd say I see 2 people do it a day so if that's just me, imagine how many people are doing it all over the country. What I don't understand, and maybe you can tell us Jiji, why don't you use the Ashtray in your car? If you've been done twice for it, it means you are either a bit thick (Ie. after getting done the first time you'd think you'd learn) or you are just a filthy animal. Sorry if I offend you but I just don't get why people like you do it. What part if your brain tells you it's ok to litter the place? Did you watch your parents do it growing up and think it's ok or do you just see other people do it and think it's ok? Or is it totally automatic at this stage and you do it without thinking? Sorry for all the questions but I've often wondered why some people litter.

Jiji

Well LFC.

Cigarette Butts are borderline to be considered littering.

Point 1: Ireland is the ONLY COUNTRY in Europe where throwing a cigarette butt is considered littering. Thought about that one ?

Point 2: It is easy to nab a car driver (Reg number), but what about smoking pedestrians ? Practically there is no ashtrays in the street.

Point 2: Ireland (Dublin) has a litter problem, but mostly the issue is unsufiscient effort from Dublin Corp.

In most capital cities, you see in the early hours cleaning trucks with jet wash and automatic brushes, the minor litter in the street (Which - no matter how you educate the population, will always be there), has to be taken care of.

I have very seldom seen one in Dublin.

I have also read the Indo article recently showing how the hjandling of public litter bin is an absolute joke (Overflawing at lunch time, even in Grafton street....).

Having a Zero tolerance policy (125 for a butt) looks good on paper with people like you, but it is a superficial measure which doesn't adress realities.

It is demagogic, political posturing, and in the meantime Dublin has a 18th century litter management programme.

I agree throwing a butt is a bad thing LFC. I don't appreciate your holy than though attitude.

Seth Brundle

Jiji wrote:

Cigarette Butts are borderline to be considered littering.

Says who?

Point 1: Ireland is the ONLY COUNTRY in Europe where throwing a cigarette butt is considered littering. Thought about that one ?

What do the other countries consider it is?

Point 2: Ireland (Dublin) has a litter problem, but mostly the issue is unsufiscient effort from Dublin Corp.

Putting it simply, if people didn't litter then there wouldn't be a problem to clean up! If a bin is full then bring your rubbish with you in your pocket or whatever!

Sleipnir

JIji, that's is utter tripe.

In response to point 1, which countries in Europe do not consider cigarette butts litter?
Can you provide evidence to back it up.

2.) There are a lot more ashtrays on the street since the smoking ban, plus there is
one in every car?

Point 3 (the most ridiculous) Littering is caused by people who litter, not by the council
failing to clean up the litter. Cleaning up whatever you see fit to throw on the street isn't the answer.

point 4, no they don't have enough people or machines out cleaning the street. Do you think that if people didn't litter, or littered less (e.g. using the car ashtray)
there would be more or less need for additional resources?

Doesn't address the reality? I doubt Damo will fling his butts out the window without thinking first do you?

There's no 'holier than thou' attitude. He littered, littering is illegal, he was caught, the law was applied and Damo was fined.
Do you think the size of whatever is thrown on the street should decide on whether or not it is littering?


One law for you and another for everyone else perhaps?

Jiji

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiji
Cigarette Butts are borderline to be considered littering.

Says who?


Quote:
Point 1: Ireland is the ONLY COUNTRY in Europe where throwing a cigarette butt is considered littering. Thought about that one ?

What do the other countries consider it is?


Quote:
Point 2: Ireland (Dublin) has a litter problem, but mostly the issue is unsufiscient effort from Dublin Corp.

Putting it simply, if people didn't litter then there wouldn't be a problem to clean up! If a bin is full then bring your rubbish with you in your pocket or whatever!
__________________
BMW Car Club

---

You are missing the point.

Ireland is the only country fining for cigarette butts.

It is the 'Zero Tolerance' approach.

This does not work.

Yes the population needs to be educated.

Pragmatically, there will ALWAYS be a minimum level of littering, this is true in Switzerland, Germany, and other countries considered much cleaner (And yes it is OK to discard a butt in Geneva or Munich).

The point is, there is a 3rd world littering management programe in place, no or little street cleaning, public bins are overflowing midday.

Sure, it is easy to fine random people for it, but without a realsitic and pragmatic approach to it, the city will look like ****.

Why is it working in Paris, Munich and Geneva but not in Dublin ?

This is focusing on a minor aspect, and nicely forgetting about 99% of the real prolem my friend.

Stephen

Take it, Damo.

LFCFan

Jiji wrote:

Well LFC.

Cigarette Butts are borderline to be considered littering.

Point 1: Ireland is the ONLY COUNTRY in Europe where throwing a cigarette butt is considered littering. Thought about that one ?

So, because other countries can do it, it's ok! Have you ever been in other European Countries? I've been to Italy, France, Spain, England and Portugal and they are all cleaner than Dublin.

Point 2: It is easy to nab a car driver (Reg number), but what about smoking pedestrians ? Practically there is no ashtrays in the street.

Pedestrians are just as bad that do it. But like you say, more needs to be done to provide ashtrays for people. Saying that though, I've seen plenty of instances of people throwing a butt on the ground when there was an ashtray bin close by. What's their excuse?

Point 2: Ireland (Dublin) has a litter problem, but mostly the issue is unsufiscient effort from Dublin Corp.

If people didn't litter in the first place, there wouldn't be a problem. People's attitudes to litter need to change in tandem with a serious overhall of the Corpo's handling of the problem.

In most capital cities, you see in the early hours cleaning trucks with jet wash and automatic brushes, the minor litter in the street (Which - no matter how you educate the population, will always be there), has to be taken care of.

So it's ok to throw 'minor' litter because it will be cleaned up later? How come I can live my life without throwing litter on the streets?

I have also read the Indo article recently showing how the hjandling of public litter bin is an absolute joke (Overflawing at lunch time, even in Grafton street....).

I agree. This though is a different problem to people just throwing stuff on the ground. At least the rubbish overflowing from these bins was originally disgarded in the correct way. Dublin Corp. need to start emptying these bins more and providing more bins. There should be a bin at every bus stop in the city for a start.

Having a Zero tolerance policy (125 for a butt) looks good on paper with people like you, but it is a superficial measure which doesn't adress realities.

People like me? You mean people who don't litter. People who think littering is wrong? People who would like to see their city litter free? People who throw their rubbish in the bin?

I agree throwing a butt is a bad thing LFC.

Which brings me back to my earlier questions. If you agree that it's bad, why do you do it? And again, can you tell me why you don't use the ashtray in your car?

I don't appreciate your holy than though attitude.

Since when is hating litter having a holier than thou attitude. Cleaner than thou maybe, but certainly not holy

Sleipnir

Jiji wrote:

You are missing the point.

Ireland is the only country fining for cigarette butts.

Show me your source for this and I'll read it.

seamus

Hi bubbles

Seth Brundle

seamus wrote:

Hi bubbles

?????