WHO's THE GREATEST RAPPER

David19

Makaveli wrote:

Record labels, MTV and Marketing.

Thats too simplistic. Marketing alone won't make anyone sell 25+ million albums. Also in tupac's day rap wasn't like it is now with artists like nelly and chingy flooding the radio. It wasn't commercial. There was no where near the marketing they have now. Fair enough tupac is still releasing albums now but he sold big when he was alive. All eyez on me went nine times platinum. Also the people mentioned, rakim, krs, odb etc had some airplay and marketing too.

Makaveli

2pac didn't sell nearly as many albums when he was alive as he has since he died.
He's become this massive rap icon, seen as many as the be all and end all of rap music. So based on this he sells a load of records. The fact that he was murdered is what spurs interest in him.
The whole faux east coast west coast beef was a record labels dream as it was pushing rap into the limelight. Obviously they shifted a lot more units. Then 2pac and Biggie were killed making them look like martyrs.
Now nowhere there does it show 2pac was a fantastic emcee. He's a marketers dream.

RAKIM, KRS-One, ODB had some airplay. Wow, fantastic. How often do you see one of their videos on MTV? How many times have you heard their stuff on the radio?
They don't present an image that can be sold like 2pac and 50Cent and Eminem.
Which is what it mainly comes down to. Image. How many kids buying 50Cent, Ja Rule and Chingy albums are actually listening to the lyrics? How many of them care? They like this whole bling bling bull**** image. The image that record labels and MTV are forcing down our throats.

It's too late for this rant anyway. Rap has been commercial since Puff Daddy and Bad Boy starting whoreing it. So, yes back in 2pac's days it was commercail. Not on such a wide spread scale as it is now, but don't kid yourself.

David19

Makaveli wrote:

2pac didn't sell nearly as many albums when he was alive as he has since he died.
He's become this massive rap icon, seen as many as the be all and end all of rap music. So based on this he sells a load of records. The fact that he was murdered is what spurs interest in him.
The whole faux east coast west coast beef was a record labels dream as it was pushing rap into the limelight. Obviously they shifted a lot more units. Then 2pac and Biggie were killed making them look like martyrs.
Now nowhere there does it show 2pac was a fantastic emcee. He's a marketers dream.

RAKIM, KRS-One, ODB had some airplay. Wow, fantastic. How often do you see one of their videos on MTV? How many times have you heard their stuff on the radio?
They don't present an image that can be sold like 2pac and 50Cent and Eminem.
Which is what it mainly comes down to. Image. How many kids buying 50Cent, Ja Rule and Chingy albums are actually listening to the lyrics? How many of them care? They like this whole bling bling bull**** image. The image that record labels and MTV are forcing down our throats.

It's too late for this rant anyway. Rap has been commercial since Puff Daddy and Bad Boy starting whoreing it. So, yes back in 2pac's days it was commercail. Not on such a wide spread scale as it is now, but don't kid yourself.

Actually he sold the same amount before his death as he did after. Before he was murdered a lot of people in rap were calling him the best ever. This can't be argued with, they were. You can't just wave all his success away as being a marketing gimmick. Tupac wasn't my favourite rapper but lyrics wise anyway he was untouchable. He probably was the best in my opinion.

I agree with most of the second paragraph but are you really comparing 50 cent to tupac? I hope not... Anyway all this is off topic tbh. Being the best has nothing to do with being commercial or not. Contrary to what some people are saying here, commercial rappers can be the best. You might not agree with their songs content but its their rapping talents which we're debating here.

Bri

David19 wrote:

I agree with most of the second paragraph but are you really comparing 50 cent to tupac? I hope not...

Imagewise yes I would. 50 can't rap to save his life but the whole gangster image with bling bling etc. is pretty much what Tupac woulda presented himself as if he were getting big around now...in his videos at least. I'm sure he'd open his mouth and show he had a bit more grey matter than 50 in an interview or something but in the hands of a record company yes.

David19 wrote:

Contrary to what some people are saying here, commercial rappers can be the best. You might not agree with their songs content but its their rapping talents which we're debating here.

As NaS proves.

David19

There's a lot more to Tupac than image. The only thing between 50 and Tupac that was similar was the thug persona (Tupac didn't really have a bling bling image). Tupac had a lot more substance. People don't remember him for his thug image. If you listen to any of his albums you know he was about social issues and change for the people around him. No rapper has been so thought provoking as tupac. There's no way you can just say all his success and the fact he's seen as the best as all image. Its not just kids who buy chingy who say he's the best. In fact a lot of them probably don't know much about him. I bet if you asked all the rappers mentioned so far in this thread who they think is the best, one name would come out on top. It'd be Tupacs.

Bri

David19 wrote:

There's a lot more to Tupac than image. The only thing between 50 and Tupac that was similar was the thug persona (Tupac didn't really have a bling bling image). Tupac had a lot more substance. People don't remember him for his thug image. If you listen to any of his albums you know he was about social issues and change for the people around him. No rapper has been so thought provoking as tupac.

Eh did you actually read my post? I deliberatley said imagewise so as not to start this kind of thing. I know he had more substance, hence the grey matter comment. I also said 50 can't rap. Sheesh!

By the way I actually have all his (real) albums. If you listen to any his albums you'll find plenty of "how do you want it" style references in there amongst your social injustice. In fact if you think 2Pac is all 'Brenda got a baby" then your simply plain wrong.

David19 wrote:

There's no way you can just say all his success and the fact he's seen as the best as all image.

Did I?

2Pac was a great rapper. He also had plenty of cr&p material too...old albums and posthumous.

And in regards to bling bling - it's a product of today's culture that bling is so much more extravagant - it's all relative. Hence me speculating at what 2Pac would do in his videos if he were getting big now. But for old times sake...

Makaveli

David19 wrote:

There's a lot more to Tupac than image. The only thing between 50 and Tupac that was similar was the thug persona (Tupac didn't really have a bling bling image). Tupac had a lot more substance. People don't remember him for his thug image.

Are you joking? A guy with Thug Life tattooed across his stomach, a guy who went to jail for sodomy, a guy along with others beat a guy almost to death in a casino isn't remembered for being a thug?
He may have been a talented person, but he was a scumbag, and all the other little scumbags wan't to emulate him. Thug life was his image.

David19 wrote:

If you listen to any of his albums you know he was about social issues and change for the people around him.

Like Bri I've listened to all the real albums, and to echo his point for all the songs about social plight etc there's plenty of tit and ass songs.

David19 wrote:

No rapper has been so thought provoking as tupac. There's no way you can just say all his success and the fact he's seen as the best as all image.

There's plenty of rappers that have been as thought provoking as Tupac. Just because he's well known to the masses people hear his more thought provoking songs. That's not to say he's the only one who writes these kind of songs. Go listen to some BDP and some of KRS-Ones' solo stuff.

David19 wrote:

I bet if you asked all the rappers mentioned so far in this thread who they think is the best, one name would come out on top. It'd be Tupacs.

You can't bring points like that into an arguement. It's pure speculation.

Hooky

You ask any body did they hear of 2PAC young or old and they'll say "oh ye thats that rapper" my mother has hears me play it so much she starts singin along. I dont care about rappers images i just like listening to the lyrics , Tupac had some great Lyrics especially Unconditional Love

pixie_student

Tupac without a doubt!

Not a huge rap fan anymore.. but i'd still listen to pac a good bit. He's a legend.

MidnightQueen

Definetly Tupac! The greatest rapper that ever lived.

Oh by the way i posted a thread just like this months ago and people got really pissed off about it!

Optikus

KittyKat wrote:

Definetly Tupac! The greatest rapper that ever lived.

Oh by the way i posted a thread just like this months ago and people got really pissed off about it!

No hes not !! be bit his style off of Biggy.. plus he got raped on rykers island, not something that hapens to the greatest "gangster" rapper is it?

MidnightQueen

Optikus wrote:

No hes not !! be bit his style off of Biggy.. plus he got raped on rykers island, not something that hapens to the greatest "gangster" rapper is it?

Well Tupac is my idol and probably always will be!

FX Meister

I'd say KRS myself, deffo not TuPac.

Optikus

KittyKat wrote:

Well Tupac is my idol and probably always will be!

Fair enough.. but maybe you should do a bit more reseach on someone before.. before you go as far as calling them your "Idol" .. he should of been called OnePac after he got shot in the balls by biggy.

David19

Lol yes Bri i did read your post. My reply was to you and Makaveli, and to the general argument hence I didn't quote you. I take both of your points that yes he had some crap thug songs and I agree. Makaveli they remember him for being a thug but also a lot more due to his social conscience songs. He's not 50 cent. 50 has nothing else bar a thug image. He was a contradiction sure but thats part of what made him interesting. I agree that the thug image probably did help his sales but his talent was more of a factor. I don't think thats open to debate really.

That said being the best rapper has nothing to do with image. His lyrical talent is without a doubt the best imo. His flow and style probably didn't match his lyrics but they were obviously up there with the best of them. Thats why I mentioned him as possibly being the best. This thread isn't an argument about why tupac sells records.

Btw Makaveli I don't think thats speculation. I based that on years of hearing fans, other rappers and people in the industry saying it. His name is usually mentioned. So is KRS, Biggie and Rakim but tbh I think Tupac is mentioned more.

MidnightQueen

Optikus wrote:

he should of been called OnePac after he got shot in the balls by biggy.

Ha Ha!

I call him my idol because of his songs not because of what he did. He had a good talent and i wished i had something like that, but i never would have wanted to be famous.

JoeSchmoe

i'm not saying his ****e, but 2 pac is the most overrated rapper ever...

Optikus

JoeSchmoe wrote:

i'm not saying his ****e, but 2 pac is the most overrated rapper ever...

Ditto

FX Meister

David19 wrote:

So is KRS, Biggie and Rakim but tbh I think Tupac is mentioned more.

Blink 182 is mentioned more than 2Pac in the music industry in general, popularity does not make him the best rapper.

David19

FX Meister wrote:

Blink 182 is mentioned more than 2Pac in the music industry in general, popularity does not make him the best rapper.

Keep what I say in context. He's mentioned more as the best rapper. Blink aren't mentioned as anything.

Makaveli

KittyKat wrote:

Well Tupac is my idol and probably always will be!

Surely all the blacks are your idols.

FX Meister

dig it, Im good at taking out of context

Hooky

Optikus wrote:

No hes not !! be bit his style off of Biggy.. plus he got raped on rykers island, not something that hapens to the greatest "gangster" rapper is it?

He has much better style than biggie
you couldnt compare any biggie song to Tupacs song Unconditional Love

Optikus

Hooky wrote:

He has much better style than biggie
you couldnt compare any biggie song to Tupacs song Unconditional Love

Lol he was copying Biggy's style for ages.. suppose its just a matter of opinion though. I just dont really think his lyrics are that great, or his beats TBH i just hate the sound of his voice. But its hillarious, to hear all the fcuked up sh1t that happened to him.

Hooky

I think the reason i like Tupac so much is because i can relate to some of his lyrics

Makaveli

Hooky wrote:

I think the reason i like Tupac so much is because i can relate to some of his lyrics

Yeah must be mad tough being a young black male in todays society.

Holla dawg.

David19

Lol yeah especially in Dublin.

Hooky

Im not black im talking about other things

Tha Gopher

A HUGE number of points to be made

Firstly,I realise the points Makaveli is trying to make,that Tupac is a much overrated sham icon,but it is nevertheless ironic he takes his username from Pacs other name Sorry,I know the points yer making,but it had to be pointed out at some stage :cool: Ill put it down to late teen thug life fascination at your time of registration

Secondly,I half understand what Hooky understands about identifying with rap. I ID with alot of rap. Take for example,the album Doggystyle. Half of it is about a young man getting drunk,getting high and getting laid. Its every young mans ****ing dream. The rappers live alot like the Irish like to,what with the hard drinking,the smoke,and their increasing love of taking yokes since the late 90s They are generally irresponsible good time people,like myself

As for best rapper,Tupac would struggle to make my top 5. ITS BIGGIE SMALLS FOR **** SAKE YOU NOBENDS!!!!! Look,Tupac wasnt bad. All Eyez on Me would have been a classic if it hadnt been made a 2 discer. But much of it was filler. There are about a dozen solid songs over the 2 CDs(Americas Most Wanted and Cant C Me are ****in legend,among others)-they shoulda stuck them on one CD and got on with it. 7 Day Theory was good too, but as for the rest of the post death albums,I have this feeling that seeing as the songs werent good enough to make it onto imperfect albums made when he was alive,much of it is sh1t by default.

Seriously,i pray for the day when the average knob on the street realises that nobody had lyricism,wit and vocals like Biggie(well,Eminem maybe outdid him on the wit slightly,but still). I measure a persons knowledge of rap by asking who is their fave rapper,and then asking what they thought of Biggie. If they say Pac was their fave but Biggie was their favourite,i can respect that. But if they say Biggie was ****e,i assume the truth,that theyve never heard Biggie bar on ****e songs like Hyponotise and Mo Money(tho his lyrics werent terrible,i dont like that song much). Ida thought Biggies prescence and deadly verse on the comercially played Milkshake remix mighta boosted his standing.

But seriously,Tupac had too many demensions. One song,he is a bad crack dealer shooting "niggaz" dead for the **** of it basically. The next,its all about black power,black pride,loving his brothers and sisters. So wait,in one song he can destroy his community selling crack,and in the next he laments the breakdown in his own society caused by crimes and family problems related to crack addiction? Arse biscuits. He only bleedin sold drugs for 2 weeks of his life,if at all. Christ,half this country have at some stage brought a bit of skunk back from England,or tried selling a few yokes at dance events,but it doesnt make you Pablo Escobar.

But Big wasnt like this. He was a bad mother****er, and he wasnt apologising for it or tryna make up for it. Apart from his daughter, his fans and his friends,it was a case of **** the world,he isnt pretending to be a half criminal half civil rights leader-hes a bad man,nothin more nothin less. If skangers really want to idolise the thug rapper,surely it should be the one who wasnt trying to balance his crime lyrics with some often misguided profoundness

Apart from all this,Biggie was just a legendary lyricist. The best rappers are the ones you know read alot of books-Nas,Biggie,probably Eminem. Sorry,but Pac didnt have the vocabulary Biggie did-it would probably be fair to say he wasnt as intelligent. But Biggie,the dude read alot,you can tell because of the big words he used. Tupac seemed confined to "alizee.....weeeeed....penintentareeeyyy......we riiiiidddeeee........" as well as over use of the word nigga.

The great thing about Ready to Die was it was almost like a life story. It begins with his birth,moves to his imprisonment,his time(real or imagined)as a street robber in Gimme the Loot,rising rap star with women chasing him because of this by tracks 7/8,and by track 10 he has made it. Juicy is,in my opinion,a song that has more of an effect on me than any of Pacs emotional songs. Why? Because Biggie was told by his teachers and his mother that he was gonna make nothing of his life. By this stage he is on top. The women from his old hood who dissed him are now chasing him,and hes in the position to be able to tell them to **** off,theres better looking women after him. Biggie knew he was an ugly dude,and alot of humourous lyics came from this. The second half of the album almost seems to be a different view,examining how he could have had much the same life if he stuck to the crack game and made millions from it. I think Suicidal Thoughts was the ending for both stories

Or maybe im just up too late



By the way Makaveli,who IS your favourite? Despite numerous posts in this thread yiv failed to anwser ......

Makaveli

Ah I was waiting for that to come and bite me in the ass. I didn't even like 2pac when I regged on here, it was just a username from IRC from when I was into his music more, that I carried on. Must get it changed.