TG4 needs 'extra €14m a year'

ishmael whale

http://www.irishexaminer.com/pport/web/ireland/Full_Story/did-sgOu1nvLYysfs.asp

“TG4 needs ‘extra €14m a year’
By Ian Guider
THE Government should increase funding for TG4 by €14 million a year to €44m by 2008, a new report recommends, or risk more job losses in the Gaeltacht areas. ….. If the Government fails to increase the station’s budget, SPI fears that many independent producers could lose their jobs and TG4 would have to rely on more English language programming. ……… The report recommends that TG4 should spend at least 80% of any new funding on commissioning more Irish language programming and better prices for producers, while a dedicated fund should be established to support producers of Irish language programming. ……….”

While trying (and failing) to stay balanced on this and accept that €14 million isn’t a lot in national terms, there seems to be a need for a slight reality check here. My picture was that what keeps TG4 going is a mixture of sport, old films in English that can still attract an audience and music programmes – i.e. everything bar programmes that actually require a knowledge of Irish. Equally, because they know their audience, TG4 subtitle a lot of their Irish language programmes in English. This overall picture seems to be supported by their ratings (see link below – incidently does anyone know what ‘Survivor 8’ is?)

Because it attracts an audience at all, I have seen TG4 defended as confounding its ‘nay’ sayers. Its ‘nay’ sayers said that there wasn’t a demand for an Irish language channel. TG4 attracts an audience because it agrees with the ‘nay’ sayers and either broadcasts in English, subtitles in English or shows sport/music programmes where language is irrelevant.

Seeing as how the basis of such support as TG4 have managed to attract is ditching the Irish language, what possible reason exists for State funding of more Irish language programming?

http://www.tg4.ie/bearla/scei/tam.htm

Elmo

Seeing as how the basis of such support as TG4 have managed to attract is ditching the Irish language, what possible reason exists for State funding of more Irish language programming?

To an extent I agree with you and disagree with you.

I agree that TG4 over the last few years have continued to increase their English Output.

However TG4 make 3.5 million a year on advertising (www.rte.ie/about), which is spent on American programming (www.rte.ie/about).

Both TV3 and RTE make most of their money from non-Irish programming such as Coronation St., Emmerdale and Eastenders etc.

TV3 have yet to make any kind of in roads into prime time TV production, and yet it holds a 15% share of the audience. Network 2/ RTE 2 base there schedule around coronation st. EastEnders Emmerdale and Fair City so as not to compete with the big soaps, instead the opt for Public Service Broadcasting during the hours of 7 and 9, the Public Service Broadcasting that they do provide is a mixture of re-runs from RTE One or TG4 or cheap imports.

If we are to all to accept that TV3 gets 15% of the audience and RTE get around 35% of the audience (over the two channels), making them 92,000,000 in advertising (www.rte.ie/about) then we can assume that on average each year TV3 makes nearly 40,000,000 on advertising. RTE spent 23,000,000 in 2003 on imports, TV3 (I again assume) spend less then this on imports. Especially since much of the output comes form ITV at a reduced Rate.

I would prefer that TG4 would only have subtitles on repeats of their shows; I think that this would be more appropriate.

The films and shows that they do buy in are not overly Commercial, I cannot see TV3 or RTE providing Le Film on a Friday night or for that matter A western in Prime Time on a Monday night.

OZ, The Wire, Curb Your Enthusiasm etc. are not what I call overly commercial in a market made up of bad Soap Operas.

Certainly don't understand the need for the OC and One Tree Hill on TG4 especially during Prime Time.

There children’s television has to be admired, as it is nearly all in Irish and not usually subtitled.

But then looking at the Ratings for TG4, your bias view forgets that Sport on TG4, which is not subtitled whenever, shown is always No. 1 average around 100,000 viewers, not allot.

Ros Na Run has 36,000 viewers.
The OC has 39,000 viewers, not allot more.

Of the top ten shows 3 of the shows are in English while another show is Survivor 8.

However as far as subtitling is concerned TG4 are providing a real service to the Deaf community also. (They should subtitle all of their American shows as well).

Basically what I am trying to say is that TG4 are currently doing a better job at providing good home produced programming, which I think needs the full support of the Irish Government. RTE and TV3 should be ashamed of themselves.

Any of the figures that I have mentioned about TV3 are assumptions, and are made on the basis of what RTE earn for their two channels.

TG4 attracts an audience because it agrees with the ‘nay’ sayers and either broadcasts in English, subtitles in English or shows sport/music programmes where language is irrelevant.

RTE and TV3 both attract an audience because of British And American Programmes, Why shouldn't TG4 be allowed do the same. While at the same time provide home produced programming which provides 314 people with jobs.

Also TG4 always have the option to go back to the old days of QVC, rather then american programming. I think they should stay well clear of QVC.

ishmael whale

I’d draw a distinction between home produced programmes and Irish language programmes. I can see a case for government support for home produced programmes. It could be justified both on ground of ensuring some cultural independence and (nasty little bean counter that I am) with a view to supporting an industry that might ultimately produce programmes of sufficient quality for export. I can’t see a similar case for additional Irish language programmes.

Programmes produced in Irish are not accessible to most Irish people and, while bums on seats is not the only measure of success, if they don’t attract an audience their value as vehicles for expression of cultural independence is greatly reduced. Equally, while language is not an absolutely insurmountable barrier, programmes produced in Irish necessarily have a considerable extra barrier to overcome when it comes to export.

I’m not clear on what points you are making about TG4 sport coverage. I’d sort of feel that if the only place you can see the ladies GAA football final is on TG4 with an Irish commentary, then that’s where people who want to see it have to tune in. Its not an case for saying ‘oh, there’s an Irish language programme with a respectable audience’. The audience are just ignoring the commentary. As we know, Ros na Run does its best to get an audience by being subtitled. Despite being a decent attempt at being a soap opera, it can’t manage a higher audience than a rerun of Magnum Force.

So when you conclude

Elmo wrote:

RTE and TV3 both attract an audience because of British And American Programmes, Why shouldn't TG4 be allowed do the same. While at the same time provide home produced programming which provides 314 people with jobs.

All I’m fundamentally saying is that the market for Irish language programmes is well met at this stage. I’ve no problem with the idea of the State investing an additional €14 million for new, innovative Irish made TV programmes. I just think it would be a complete waste to invest it in more unwatched Irish language programmes.

bonkey

Elmo wrote:

RTE and TV3 both attract an audience because of British And American Programmes, Why shouldn't TG4 be allowed do the same.

Because TG4 was set up on the basis that there was a market for a (somewhat subsidised) Irish-language-based TV channel. To turn around and say that this means that it should be ok for the channel to show English/US (non-Irish-language-based) programming in order to survive seems counter-intuitive.

If there isn't a market, then lets admit there isn't a market.....which then calls into question the reason for having them.

While at the same time provide home produced programming which provides 314 people with jobs.

€44M, divided between 314 people averages to just over €140,000 per person per year.

If thats considered a "good" reason, then why isn't shutting down the company and paying them less (say €100,000 per person per year) an even better idea?

What I'm trying to say is that while employment is all well and good, when its being subsidised at what I can only assume is more than 100% of the salary-roll, then one has to wonder exactly why its a good thing.

jc

Sleepy

bonkey wrote:

If there isn't a market, then lets admit there isn't a market...

And shut it down?

From what I can see, TG4 has a market for children's programming and an afternoon soap opera. So why not just forget about the evening schedule and bring in someone like Setanta to provide sporting coverage for the evenings? (i.e. share the frequency in the same manner that Nickelodeon and MTV used to).

This way, the station could potentially become comercially viable (as it woulldn't be producing it's loss leading evening TV) and could still claim to be actively promoting the Irish language where it's best targeted - at the population of the future.

Elmo

Ah but your all forgetting that TG4 was never ment to be a full time channel. Why?

For the basic reason that the audience for an Irish Language channel would not be big enough to support a full time Irish station.

When it was called TnaG it provided 2hrs per day which they said that they would hope to increase to 3hrs per day. That has happened.

The rest of TG4 programming is just a fundamental part of every Irish Channel on this Island.

Network 2 (RTE2) and TV3 only provide American And British Programming, and yet both have a big enough audience to produce more then 2hrs of Irish Programmes for Prime Time.

€44M, divided between 314 people averages to just over €140,000 per person per year.

What are the broadcast costs?
They also would be increasing programming with 44million thus creating more jobs.

From what I can see, TG4 has a market for children's programming and an afternoon soap opera. So why not just forget about the evening schedule and bring in someone like Setanta to provide sporting coverage for the evenings? (i.e. share the frequency in the same manner that Nickelodeon and MTV used to).

They do that with EuroNews at Night. Also Just look at RTE2 Its basically a Childrens/Sports Channel. Do we really need a second Sports/childrens channel.

I have no problem with TG4 showing american programming and sport to support their Irish Show. I think that TG4 have bought the best of american imports over the last number of years and those programmes complement the shows that they produce. S4C do that with C4 programming and Welsh Programming.

Not all channels need to be commercially viable.

Also, Why was TV3 set? Just to be ITV? I think that that is a more valid question as Irish Media becomes more and more like a region of the UK.

And I fundamentally agree that the amount of on screen subtitling should be reduced significantly.

Personnally how I would like to see the Scedule on TG4 change would be as follows:-

07:00 - 10:00 EuroNews
10:00 - 12:00 Young Childrens Programming (As Geilge)
12:00 - 14:00 Scannan
14:00 - 18:00 Culabula (As Geilge)
18:00 - 19:00 Ceol
19:00 - 20:00 TG4 Nuacht
20:00 - 23:00 Clar Teilfis Geilge (Without Subtitles)
23:00 - 01:00 Imports
01:00 - 00:30 EuroNews

At the weekend show programmes with subtitles and american films and shows during primetime.

Also TG4 news is not subtitled and can get an audience of 30,000.

ishmael whale

Elmo wrote:

Ah but your all forgetting that TG4 was never ment to be a full time channel. Why? For the basic reason that the audience for an Irish Language channel would not be big enough to support a full time Irish station.

For my part, I'm neither remembering nor forgetting this. I'm simply pointing out that the demand for Irish language programmes would appear to be met. This is underlined by TG4's policy of extensive use of English and of programmes where language is irrelevant. So the proposal that the State should invest more money making more Irish language programmes seems just plain wrong.

Elmo wrote:

What are the broadcast costs?
They also would be increase hour with 44million thus creating more jobs.

You have to be very careful with this kind of argument. Remember, the State could create a need for more jobs in the health sector by getting the Army to go round hurting people. Similarly, the State could create extra demand for subsidised broadcasting time by paying for more unwatched Irish language programmes. But neither activity provides a basis for meaningful job creation.

Elmo wrote:

Also Why was TV3 set? Just to be ITV? I think that that is a more valid question as Irish Media becomes more and more like a region of Britian.

I agree with your sentiment - which is why I would have no problem with additional money being invested in home produced programmes, so long as they are in English so they might actually attract an audience.

Elmo

I agree with your sentiment - which is why I would have no problem with additional money being invested in home produced programmes, so long as they are in English so they might actually attract an audience.

This is basically the same except that your producing shows in English with Tax payers money.

I think that if TV3 really want to prove that the licence fee is not need in the Irish Market then they should with their own private money go out and make some TV.

Rather then Feic For Free, on Three.

The idea behind TG4 is to promote Irish, I don't think that this is a bad thing.

TG4 is fundamentally PSB. And it is doing its job well.

Remember there are very many Irish Programmes in the English lanugage that don't get viewers.

You have to remember it's not all about money. €€€€€€€€€€€€€

Remember, the State could create a need for more jobs in the health sector by getting the Army to go round hurting people.

Sorry but you should be able to create Jobs in the health care system even if people aren't sick. Why? Just In Case.

Wishing Harney luck in her new job.

ishmael whale

I don’t think we’re in wild disagreement, but just to be clear about what I’m saying:

Elmo wrote:

This is basically the same except that your producing shows in English with Tax payers money.

As I’ve said above ‘I can see a case for government support for home produced programmes. It could be justified both on ground of ensuring some cultural independence and (nasty little bean counter that I am) with a view to supporting an industry that might ultimately produce programmes of sufficient quality for export. I can’t see a similar case for additional Irish language programmes.’

My point is making programmes in Irish reduces their value as an expression of cultural independence.

Elmo wrote:

I think that if TV3 really want to prove that the licence fee is not need in the Irish Market then they should with their own private money go out and make some TV.

Indeed they should. I’d feel if we want to retain any significant level of domestic output some level of protection/financing is probably needed.

Elmo wrote:

The idea behind TG4 is to promote Irish, I don't think that this is a bad thing.

I’ve no warm feelings about the Irish language, but I grudgingly accept we have some responsibility to keep it alive in some fashion. My complaint is with the proposal to spend even more on TG4 Irish language programmes, when it has already exceeded the demand for such programmes.

Elmo wrote:

TG4 is fundamentally PSB. And it is doing its job well.

I have no essential problem with TG4, but would point out again that ‘TG4 attracts an audience because it agrees with the ‘nay’ sayers and either broadcasts in English, subtitles in English or shows sport/music programmes where language is irrelevant.’

Elmo wrote:

Remember there are very many Irish Programmes in the English lanugage that don't get viewers.

Yes, and many of them should be allowed to fall into oblivion. But there’s a clear distinction between broadcasting Oireachtas Report to an audience of three people plus the cat, which can be justified on grounds that the public should be able to see their legislators in action even if they couldn’t be bothered watching, and spending money creating a version of ‘Blind Date’ in sweet melodious Irish which similarly gets an audience of three people plus the cat.

Elmo wrote:

You have to remember it's not all about money. €€€€€€€€€€€€€

At the same time a justification needs to exist if a case for public funding is being made.As I have said above ‘Programmes produced in Irish are not accessible to most Irish people and, while bums on seats is not the only measure of success, if they don’t attract an audience their value as vehicles for expression of cultural independence is greatly reduced.’

Elmo wrote:

Sorry but you should be able to create Jobs in the health care system even if people aren't sick. Why? Just In Case.

I think you’re rather missing the point here, and apologies as my health service analogy seems to be misleading you.

Sometime people confuse increasing costs with job creation. You seem to be doing this when you suggest that subsidised production of programmes without an audience creates a downstream demand for jobs for people who broadcast them. I’m pointing out that the whole enterprise is illusory – you might as well pay people to dig holes and fill them in again. Its just workfare – manufacturing a need for useless activity where none exists.

Hopefully this clears it up.

Elmo

Programmes produced in Irish are not accessible to most Irish people and, while bums on seats is not the only measure of success, if they don’t attract an audience their value as vehicles for expression of cultural independence is greatly reduced.’

Well I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this.

It think that TG4 "offers a real alternative to the viewer delivering an entertainment mix that reflects the interests and tastes of modern Ireland."

Quote from www.tv3.ie

Do don't except that we are culturally idependent when:-

1. We produce programmes just for export
2. Provide popular commerical tastes to the Irish Public.

Think that reduces are cultural independance simply because you will always have to produce for the masses of the world.

ishmael whale

Elmo wrote:

Well I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this.

I’m not clear what we are disagreeing about.

It’s pretty clear that programmes produced in Irish are not accessible to most Irish people, so I take it you don’t dispute that. We both seem to agree that bums on seats is not the only measure of success.

The TV3 quote about offering “a real alternative to the viewer delivering an entertainment mix that reflects the interests and tastes of modern Ireland" might be a little breathless, but I’m willing to accept that TG4 offers an alternative to other channels and does attract a significant minority audience for some of its output.

Cultural independence is not about producing programmes just for export. But I’m comfortable with the idea that well produced programmes aimed at the home market might have export potential.

Cultural independence is not necessarily about meeting the popular commerical tastes to the Irish Public, although, again, I'm comfortable with the idea that home programming might be commercial successful. But equally cultural independence is hardly about producing programmes which attract no significant audience at all, or creating a workfare scheme for a small group of people.

All the time I think its necessary to remember that we are not talking about extremes. We have an amount of Irish language programme production and a channel nominally dedicated to broadcasting them. I’m simply saying we don’t need any more of it.

Elmo

We both seem to agree that bums on seats is not the only measure of success.

I don't beleive this. I think that their are many shows out their that where not commerically viable yet are quality productions.

Just because someone isn't watching doesn't mean something isn't good.

There are many shows that have critical acclaim.

I am sure that you have watched some shows and wondered how come that show didn't make it to a second series? I certainly have. But perhaps your to much of a "bean counter".

My disagreement with you is, I don't beleive that bum on seats = Success.

I’m simply saying we don’t need any more of it.

I don't beleive it would be half as wasteful as the licence fee. Half as wasteful as giving TV3 a licence to broadcast.

Also you will note that TG4 have begun to produce Animated programmes with other Irish Producers. I think that it would be within their remit to develop Irelands animation production which they can then sell to many countries around the world.

Inis Cúil
Tutanstine (Sp?)

Also Orginal Ideas like

Underdogs

Prehaps that would satisfy your bean counting.

bonkey

Elmo wrote:

Just because someone isn't watching doesn't mean something isn't good.

No, but "good" and "successful" are two entirely seperate things.....unless you redefine success to mean how good something is, as opposed to how successful it was at achieving its intended goals.

My disagreement with you is, I don't beleive that bum on seats = Success.

Then could you define what does constitute success?

Surely it depends on the reasons for creating something?

If I create a show to make money, then the amount of money it makes determines how successful it was. Nothing more, and nothing less. That money will be significantly dependant on viewing numbers (i.e. bums on seats).

If I create a show to be an accurate rendition of XYZ, regardless of whether it is a commercial success or not, then its success is judged by how well I rendered XYZ.

But to disregard "bums on seats" as a measure of success basically redefines success to mean "any form of success except commercial success". If thats the intention, then fine, but lets clearly state it....rather than using a generality (i.e. the word "success" or "successful") which we don't mean to be taken generally.

jc

ishmael whale

Elmo wrote:

My disagreement with you is, I don't beleive that bum on seats = Success.

Again, we seem to be having an unnecessary disagreement here. I don’t think that bum on seats = Success either. But I do feel that bums on seats can be a strong indicator of success.

To clarify, I do indeed agree that a quality programme might not get a large audience. (But, to be clear, I do not regard Blind Date in Irish as a quality programme in this context.)

On the other hand, neither do I go to the other extreme and see the ability to attract a large audience as necessarily implying a programme is of poor quality.

Finally, I don’t go completely overboard and assume that for a programme to be good it must be incapable of attracting any kind of audience, or suggest that the objective of subsidised programme making should be to make unwatchable programmes on grounds that a small audience is an indisputable sign of success.

Elmo wrote:

I don't beleive it would be half as wasteful as the licence fee. Half as wasteful as giving TV3 a licence to broadcast.

I don’t particularly value TV3 as a station. But my understanding was they are commercial – i.e. the State is not expected to fork out to keep them going.

As regards the licence fee, I do believe its justified if in exchange we get some kind of reasonable Irish broadcaster offering an alternative to foreign stations. People will have strong opinions as to how well RTE have fulfilled this role, but with the existence of TG4 no-one can reasonably complain that RTE needs to address a lack of availability of Irish language programmes. That market seems to be already saturated.

Elmo wrote:

Also you will note that TG4 have begun to produce Animated programmes with other Irish Producers. I think that it would be within their remit to develop Irelands animation production which they can then sell to many countries around the world.

I see no problem in principle with the State providing a little seed money for Irish animators. I just don’t see the need to introduce an Irish language element to the process. I say again, we’re already producing enough Irish language programmes. Equally I have no problem with TG4 using their existing resources to forge links to talented Irish producers.

Elmo

I just don’t see the need to introduce an Irish language element to the process. I say again, we’re already producing enough Irish language programmes.

Nay Sayer = TG4 Not commercial Viable, Yet when they do something which is commerically via Nay Sayer = Why bother?

MMM?

They have a certain amount of money which they choose to produce something that will be of interest to many people. No other Irish Channel is doing this. Reading the Irish Times this week the producer of Inis Cuil said how important it was to get a main terrestial broadcaster on board. Where where RTE and TV3?

But, to be clear, I do not regard Blind Date in Irish as a quality programme in this context

Do you think it is a quality programme in the English Lanuage?

I think your picking up on one show on TG4 out of how many? There are lots of quality shows on TG4.

Equally I have no problem with TG4 using their existing resources to forge links to talented Irish producers.

And that is what they have done. Prehaps others in the English Lanuage sector in Broadcasting in Ireland could do the same.

bonkey

Elmo wrote:

Nay Sayer = TG4 Not commercial Viable, Yet when they do something which is commerically via Nay Sayer = Why bother?

MMM?

But they're not doing something commercially viable. They're supporting a subsidiary industry in the production of something which is commercially non-viable.

They may help the animation industry get back on its feet, but they will most likely do so without producing a single profit-making irish-langauge-oriented animated feature.

They have a certain amount of money which they choose to produce something that will be of interest to many people.

I thought the issue was that they aren't getting bums on seats. So either "many" and "not a lot" are the same to you, or "of interest" means "something they might be interested in but don't watch anyway".

No other Irish Channel is doing this.

What? No other Irish-speaking channel is doing this, or no other Irish-located channel?

The former is a tautology...when there is only one Irish-speaking channel, naturally there can't be a second one doing the same thing.

The latter is false...there are plenty of programs being made for RTE1 and Network2, which are of interest to "many people". So as Ishmael said...what is the need to have a loss-making Irish-language channel doing the subsidisation?

jc

ishmael whale

Elmo wrote:

Nay Sayer = TG4 Not commercial Viable, Yet when they do something which is commerically via Nay Sayer = Why bother?

I’m not sure that’s the point. Nay sayers said there was no great demand for Irish language TV Channel and TG4’s output reflects this. TG4 may well be doing something useful, and even attract a respectable audience, by broadcasting things like the ladies GAA football final. But when it does its meeting a minority demand that is not particularly related to the Irish language.

The point is, if we simply want to see additional State financial support for home produced programmes there’s no need to fund more Irish language programmes, as the demand for such programmes is already met.

Elmo wrote:

Do you think it [Blind Date] is a quality programme in the English Lanuage?

No, but the original English version is commercially successful which is what its intended to be. Its not meant to be Brideshead Revisited. But it’s a little hard to work out what Blind Date is intended to be when you translate it into Irish.

Elmo wrote:

I think your picking up on one show on TG4 out of how many? There are lots of quality shows on TG4.

I’m sure there are, and my personal favourite is Power Rangers with Irish dubbing. Its a surreal experience that leaves Salvador Dali in its wake.

Elmo wrote:

Prehaps others in the English Lanuage sector in Broadcasting in Ireland could do the same.

Indeed, and if an additional €14 million can be made available that’s where it should go.

Elmo

In relation to cleamhas (matchmaker, i.e. Blind Date) you will find the basic caracteristics of blind date on that show, however it is an orginal concept that your mother and father chooses the person your going to go on the date with. Also you will find that on TG4 there are very many more programmes that take on orginal Ideas (Find the whole dating show as been done to death). These orginal Ideas can be sold to foreign broadcasters. E.G. Underdogs or SOS.

What? No other Irish-speaking channel is doing this, or no other Irish-located channel?

You will find I was talking about animation. No other Irish TV station is producing or funding Animation. Animation Series.

They may help the animation industry get back on its feet, but they will most likely do so without producing a single profit-making irish-langauge-oriented animated feature.

Is animation Langauge oriented? Looney Toons was orginally produced in English, how many lanuages has it been translated into?

Indeed, and if an additional €14 million can be made available that’s where it should go.

I don't beleive this is true as RTE currently have 100,000,000 from the Licence and 92,000,000 from Advertising. They can survive.

And TV3 was there to shows us that Pulic funded TV in Ireland is not needed, They have yet to acheive this. (Certainly they have proven that RTE 2 is not needed).

Sky have 100,000,000 euro from the irish veiwer and spend it on News at 7 and 10.

I’m sure there are, and my personal favourite is Power Rangers with Irish dubbing. Its a surreal experience that leaves Salvador Dali in its wake.

Again your taking one show.

You forget the other shows that TG4 actually produce and do not dub over.

(I personelly think Power Rangers is a surreal experience in English. Notice how in English its just as badly dubbed)

I dont think they air this show anymore.

ishmael whale

Elmo wrote:

In relation to cleamhas (matchmaker, i.e. Blind Date) you will find the basic caracteristics of blind date on that show, however it is an orginal concept that your mother and father chooses the person your going to go on the date with.

They might have a variant of Blind Date, but Blind Date is a mass market commercial vehicle. Its objective is to pack in the punters. What’s its objective when broadcast in Irish to a tiny audience?

Elmo wrote:

These orginal Ideas can be sold to foreign broadcasters.

Fine. So have they sold them, and how much have they got for them?

Elmo wrote:

No other Irish TV station is producing or funding Animation.

There’s a debate about how good RTE is at stimulating local production. That’s not a debate about Irish language.

Elmo wrote:

I don't beleive this is true as RTE currently have 100,000,000 from the Licence and 92,000,000 from Advertising. They can survive.

By your figures €14 million is equivalent to a 14% increase in the licence fee. That doesn’t strike me as small potatoes. If, as the original news article suggests, TG4’s budget for home programming is €30 million – nearly a third of the licence fee income – it, on reflection, strikes me as a scandalously high amount to be investing in Irish language broadcasting. No wonder RTE is less than brilliant at home production if one third of the available State supports are going to TG4.
Based on your figures, I no longer feel that TG4 should make do with its existing budget. I now feel its budget should be reduced, and the funds released given to RTE for domestic productions.

Elmo wrote:

And TV3 was there to shows us that Pulic funded TV in Ireland is not needed, They have yet to acheive this. (Certainly they have proven that RTE 2 is not needed). Sky have 100,000,000 euro from the irish veiwer and spend it on News at 7 and 10.

TV3 shows you can broadcast UK and US programmes at a profit. That’s not a discovery, and not an argument against public funding of television. As for Sky, I don’t usually tune into the Stepford Newsreaders but what I’ve seen of them convinces me of the value of RTE’s current affairs production – regardless of RTE’s faults.

Elmo wrote:

Again your taking one show.You forget the other shows that TG4 actually produce and do not dub over.

Just to be clear, we could exhaustively review TG4 output over a twelve month period and categorise its output under various headings. But I’m certainly not investing that level of effort into this discussion. I have posted TG4’s own weekly ratings. It confirms what we would gather from casual viewing. TG4’s most popular programmes are generally either sports, music or English language. Its most popular programmes in the week in question were the ladies GAA senior and junior football finals, which attracted significantly more viewers than the rest of the top ten.

For our purposes that is enough science to illustrate what role, in practice, TG4 is fulfilling and to illustrate, in practice, that the demand for Irish language broadcasting is very well catered for.

Beyond that I feel it is useful to illustrate points by reference to a few specific programmes. At this stage I think I have mentioned Ros na Run, Blind Date, Power Rangers and ladies GAA where relevant. So your comment that I am ‘Only taking one show’ is not valid. Within the few examples I have mentioned there is a fair coverage of the kind of thing that TG4 do i.e. natively produced Irish language, children’s, dubbed and sports.

Elmo wrote:

I personelly think Power Rangers is a surreal experience in English. Notice how in English its just as badly dubbed

Taste is a purely personal thing. But for me, a Power Ranger jabbering in English before doing battle with a latex monster just doesn’t bring the same rich cultural associations as one speaking in our ancient tongue.

Sand

How about abandoning state ownership or funding of TV stations altogether, and instead satisfying the undoubtedly rabid demand for Irish language programming by directly subsidising programs that satisfy public interest/irish language?

Outsource public broadcasting as it were - you fork over the readies for exactly what you want, and thus can direct the quality of programming a lot more. As opposed to funding an Irish language station that broadcasts in english and so on. Any station broadcasting into Ireland would be be able to pick up these subsidies so youve got more than one or two stations doing your bidding.

Cork

Sand wrote:

Outsource public broadcasting as it were - you fork over the readies for exactly what you want, and thus can direct the quality of programming a lot more. As opposed to funding an Irish language station that broadcasts in english and so on. Any station broadcasting into Ireland would be be able to pick up these subsidies so youve got more than one or two stations doing your bidding.

This is an interesting point. RTE is a commercial broadcaster. Not do people have to pay a licence but they have also yo look at ads. (plus many programmes are sponsored).

I think Tg4 deserves support but such support needs to be given for programme & service delivery.

bonkey

Sand wrote:

Outsource public broadcasting as it were - you fork over the readies for exactly what you want, and thus can direct the quality of programming a lot more.

But isn't that realistically nto much different to whats happening today?

Many programs are not made by RTE or TG4, but rather by small production companies who sell them to the stations? Isn't that why Father Ted ended up as a C4 production instead of RTE - because RTE refused to fund it (i.e. to buy it).

Would outsourcing the broadcasting really change much? Shows that are currently poduced by TG4 could be sold or spun off and bought back, if they were felt to be worth keeping (same with RTE). And the people deciding exactly what we want, and then telling the broadcaster to go source it....well, they'd be in no different a position to who does that now...so they could make the same choices (lousy or good, as you see fit).

As opposed to funding an Irish language station that broadcasts in english and so on.

Well, you can look at it slightly differently...

They're funding an Irish station which meets its Irish-language broadcasting requirements, and which broadcasts in English outside that requirement in order to try and attract more viewers to subsidise what Irish broadcasting it can manage.

Maybe the model is wrong. Maybe they need to sell the channel-time, and cut the broadcasting time to whatever they need for their solely-Irish content.....but I really don't see how selling the broadcasting company would really make any difference. I mean, TV3 is a private broadcaster, with requirements for certain amounts of certain types of content. Is it doing so much better than the nationals?

Any station broadcasting into Ireland would be be able to pick up these subsidies so youve got more than one or two stations doing your bidding.

But realitically, for those stations (with the possible exception of the Northern stations such as UTV) Ireland is chump-change compared to their main viewerships. The money wouldn't be worth the capacity, especially given the lack of rebroadcastability. English programs can easily go to a lot of markets, but anything Irish will have to be dubbed to even test another market area with it.

Do you really think this would be of serious interest to the other stations? I mean....its not like there's that much money available for programming.

jc

Elmo

No wonder RTE is less than brilliant at home production if one third of the available State supports are going to TG4

TG4 is exchequer funded, and receives 6million euro worth of TV from RTE. And has a tiny amount of advertising.

This is an interesting point. RTE is a commercial broadcaster. Not do people have to pay a licence but they have also yo look at ads. (plus many programmes are sponsored).

I know that this isn't really part of the discussion but since we always look at the RTE and BBC thing And just to get it out of the way for the 400th time.

RTE
1. Licence Fee
2. Advertising

BBC
1. Licence Fee
2. Sale Of Programming (Is this not commercial?)

Getting back to the discussion. I think I've said enough. Thanks.

Sorry also I assume the reason for Blind Date (Cleamhas) is for entertainment in Irish, TG4 remit and PSB is to provide Entertaining and informative shows in the irish language. Weather you like Cleamhas or Blind Date many people find them enjoyable.

ishmael whale

Elmo wrote:

TG4 is exchequer funded, and receives 6million euro worth of TV from RTE. And has a tiny amount of advertising. .

I just want to get this straight. You say TG4 gets 30 million in exchequer funding, plus 6 million worth of programmes from RTE. Does this mean it gets 36 million in State funding? And should this 6 million be deducted from RTE’s 100 million licence fee income.

This seems to make the situation even worse. What you are saying is of the 130 million in State funds allocated to TV (licence fee income and direct grants), 36 million goes to TG4. Put another way, TG4 gets about 40% of what RTE gets by way of state subsidy, We’re paying out nearly as much to TG4 as we are to either RTE 1 or RTE 2, largely for Irish language programmes that hardly get an audience.

I’ll be honest. I felt TG4 was a bit of a joke up to this, but I never realised the extent to which it’s a soak on available State resources in the broadcasting sector. This is another example typical of Irish fudge and denial of reality leading to typical Irish flushing of public money down the drain.

Elmo wrote:

Sorry also I assume the reason for Blind Date (Cleamhas) is for entertainment in Irish, TG4 remit and PSB is to provide Entertaining and informative shows in the irish language. Weather you like Cleamhas or Blind Date many people find them enjoyable.

I think the point is very few people watch Blind Date in Irish, so your statement that ‘many’ enjoy it doesn’t apply. The question stays open. Whatever about producing a high quality programme in Irish about the Uileann piping tradition in Mid Monaghan, which might attract a low audience but be justified on cultural merit, remaking a lightweight programme in Irish loses sense if it doesn’t attract an audience.

Elmo

No the 30,000,000 includes the 6,000,000 from RTE. RTE only value the productions that the provide at 6,000,000 so those productions are produced by RTE.

i.e. An Nuacht agus Leargas.

Whatever about producing a high quality programme in Irish about the Uileann piping tradition in Mid Monaghan, which might attract a low audience but be justified on cultural merit, remaking a lightweight programme in Irish loses sense if it doesn’t attract an audience.

Yes you could say the same about RTE. Does RTE really need to produce

Winning Streak
Fame And Fortune
Telly Bingo
The Dinner Party.

You cann't just expect all of the people who speak Irish to want to watch some cultural Rubish about Uileann Piping in Monaghan. I think they have a remit for it but they also have a remit to provide a TV Channel in Irish.

And providing a TV channel in Irish does not mean providing shows of cultural Importance. It's their to keep the Irish at least Semi Alive that is what their main Remit is.

IMO TG4 remit is:-

1. To provide a forum for Irish speakers through Current Affairs, News and Chat
2. To provide a wide range of programmes that are entertaining to a wide Audience in the Irish Language.
3. To provide programming of cultural importance.
4. To provide children's Programming in Irish.

TG4 must provide programming that is of interest to all Irish speakers not just a small minority of a small minority.

ishmael whale

Elmo wrote:

Yes you could say the same about RTE. Does RTE really need to produce Winning Streak .....

Let me first say I’m not particularly holding a torch for RTE, and I’m utterly open to suggestions as to how either the licence fee might be better used or how RTE might be better run. But checking out RTE One’s ratings reveals a very different picture to TG4s – it is not realistic to equate them like you are trying to. In the week in question above there is one foreign produced entry in their top ten. Plus their popular home produced programmes are pulling audiences of half a million and over.

http://www.rte.ie/aertel/p369.htm

Also, according to RTE’s annual report, they attract about 40% audience share. TG4 is somewhere around 2 to 3 %. And bear in mind this 2 to 3 % includes the audience of TG4’s relatively more popular sports/old English language movies etc. And bear in mind that TG4 is being subsidised to a comparable extent to RTE – 30 million for one channel as against 90 million for two.

http://www.rte.ie/about/organisation/annualreport/2003eng.pdf

Someone might still ask why the State needs to subsidise soap opera production via the licence fee. But there’s a world of difference between investing money in Fair City and getting an audience of half a million and TG4’s flagship Ros Na Run pulling in maybe 36,000. At least the final output from RTE is capable of attracting a significant audience. The same cannot be said about TG4.

In RTE’s case its about whether we decide there is value in having a national broadcasting service, and if we feel it should be subsidised. In TG4’s case its just flushing money away for little benefit

Elmo wrote:

And providing a TV channel in Irish does not mean providing shows of cultural Importance. ........TG4 must provide programming that is of interest to all Irish speakers not just a small minority of a small minority.

Indeed, but I think the point is what they are succeeding in doing is finding ways of ‘working around’ their Irish language obligations to provide programmes that can attract non-Irish speakers. In one sense, fair play to them for recognising there is no significant demand for an Irish language TV service and trying to find a meaningful role for themselves. In another sense, there’s only so much State money available for broadcasting and other uses to which it could be put.

How low does their audience have to be before we just deem it a failure?

Elmo

How low does their audience have to be before we just deem it a failure?

I don't think it is about audience.

As pointed out there children's TV service has been very successful.

What do you deem to be an exceptable level of audience?

But there’s a world of difference between investing money in Fair City and getting an audience of half a million and TG4’s flagship Ros Na Run pulling in maybe 36,000. At least the final output from RTE is capable of attracting a significant audience. The same cannot be said about TG4

Again I honestly don't see it about being audience. No one ever suggested that TG4 would have a large audience.

I don't think investing money in a soap opera on RTE is a good thing. I think the money could be used more apporpately on other Drama Productions before Fair City.

TG4 is about providing a TV Channel to a minorty audience in a small country. Prehaps that is how TG4 should see themselves.

ishmael whale

Elmo wrote:

I don't think it is about audience.

Fine, what do you see it as being about? As I see it, its not necessarily about audience in the sense of commercial success. But, even if requiring a subsidy, it should at least be reaching someone. With a 2 to 3% market share, with significant portions of that 2 to 3% audience tuning in for non-Irish language material, TG4 just isn’t reaching people.

Elmo wrote:

As pointed out there children's TV service has been very successful.

How do you measure success in this context?

Elmo wrote:

What do you deem to be an exceptable level of audience? No one ever suggested that TG4 would have a large audience.

You’re trying to answer a question with a question. But I’ll let that pass. I see an audience share of 2-3%, including programmes in English, as failure.

If RTE can gather a 40% share with 100 million, I’d be happy with TG4 making do with 10 million until such time as there was evidence of any significant unmet need for Irish language programmes. That’s one third of its current budget, but still a premium over what RTE gets pro rata. It’s also ignoring the fact that a rerun of ‘Magnum Force’ will attract a larger audience that almost all of its Irish language output.

If TG4 cannot survive with this level of funding I’d be happy to see it close. Now, what do you regard as acceptable? How low would its audience be before you would be happy to see it go?

Elmo wrote:

I don't think investing money in a soap opera on RTE is a good thing. I think the money could be used more apporpately on other Drama Productions before Fair City.

Possibly, possibly not. But the question is more about why TG4 should get such a generous subsidy, compared to RTE. Whether RTE could do more or better with the resources at their disposal is a separate debate. But what is clear from this debate is they achieve a lot more than TG4 with not much more resources per channel.

Audience is not the only thing, but it is a very important indicator of success. You simply can’t gloss over the fact that RTE reaches far more people than TG4, with much the same subsidy.

Elmo wrote:

TG4 is about providing a TV Channel to a minorty audience in a small country. Prehaps that is how TG4 should see themselves.

Which blurs the distinction between it and RTE. Presumably RTE’s role is providing TV Channels to both mainstream and minority audiences in a small country. In fact, when you think about, Ireland is a minority audience.

Elmo

In fact, when you think about, Ireland is a minority audience.

Indeed, ITV Eire agrees with you.

ishmael whale

http://www.sbpost.ie/web/DocumentView/did-651498825-pageUrl--2FThe-Newspaper-2FSundays-Paper-2FMedia-and-Marketing.asp

“TG4 seeks funds for growth
24/10/04 00:00
By Catherine O'Mahony
………… TG4, however, is also seeking more government funding ………Ó Ciardha has the backing of Screen Producers Ireland, which earlier this month issued a report appealing for a significant increase in funding for TG4 over the next four years ……..Written by consultant Peter Quinn and supported by Udarás na Gaeltachta, the report calls on the government to increase TG4's funding to €44 million by 2008.That sum could generate, for example, an additional 120 hours of children's programming a year…….The report points out that Welsh channel S4C receives far more financial support on a direct comparison. S4C gets public sector funding of £95 million, advertising revenue of £8 million, plus 550 hours of Welsh-language programming.

………. TG4 has attracted a broader audience than was first expected, he said. And a look at the data confirms that the channel's audience profile is 23 per cent Dublin-based, which is higher than either RTE's or TV3's (they have 20 per cent each in Dublin).”

Clearly TG4 are making a push for funding. However the creaks in their arguments are many. For example, the comparison to S4C only serves to highlight how RTE’s level of state support via the licence fee is less that UK funding for Welsh language TV.

Equally the misuse of statistics to try and pretend that TG4 is tapping into some Dublin vibe hardly stands up to scrutiny. Say their 3% audience share converts into 30,000 people, and RTE’s 40% converts into 400,000. Then TG4’s 23% Dublin portion of their profile amounts to 6,900 people while RTE’s 20% converts to 80,000 people. Conclusion: TG4 attracts a far smaller audience in Dublin that RTE, same as nationally.

Once again, an articulate sectional interest manages to get a stranglehold over national policy. In this instance, state aids for Irish based broadcasting which could be used to general benefit are diverted into making programmes that few watch, just to keep a couple of hundred people on a workfare scheme in Galway.

ishmael whale

I can’t get my head around this crowd wanting a relatively modest €2 million to develop the Irish film industry, but a whopping €21 million for TG4 (with apparently no allowance for the programming provided by RTE.)

Just as an example of how the grass is always greener, the call for an Irish Language Broadcast Fund like Norn Iron might be tempered by the realisation that they seem to be cutting back their funding from £4 million p.a. to something like £2.4 million. SPI’s comment that ‘Irish language television productions may shift to the North’ clearly needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. (Although hardly anyone would notice if this promised exodus took place.)

This is not to suggest that her majesty’s government are the experts on how best to fund Irish language programming. I’m just saying the SPI’s argument is dodgy.

They also seem to suggest that Ireland’s film funding should match Denmark’s because we have similar sized territories. I don’t know why film funding based on acreage is a good idea, but I’m sure the National Film Board of Greenland support the principle.

http://www.examiner.ie/pport/web/ireland/Full_Story/did-sgxYjeo3L6HOssg7OWirIStPSk.asp
‘ADDITIONAL funding for the Irish Film Board is needed if the country’s movie industry is to attract new productions.

In its pre-budget submission, Screen Producers Ireland (SPI) said the board needs an extra €2 million a year to continue developing the film sector….. “Despite the large amount of revenue the board helps bring into the country every year their level of resources is less than a quarter of that of their counterparts in Denmark, who operate in a similar sized territory……The group also repeated its calls for increased funding for TG4, giving the station an annual budget of €30m for 2005 from the level of €23m and to raise it further to €44m a year by 2007.

“We believe a dedicated fund should be established to support producers of Irish language television programmes, as is the case in Northern Ireland with the establishment of the Irish Language Broadcast Fund.”’

http://www.utvlive.com/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=7257&pt=e
“Members of the Northern Ireland Film and Television Commission slammed the latest draft budget by Northern Ireland Office Finance Minister Ian Pearson for proposing that £12 million allocated for Irish language programming over three years is spread out over five years.

Chief executive of the Northern Ireland Film and Television Commission Richard Williams claimed the decision meant the Irish language broadcast fund had been effectively reduced.”