TG4 needs 'extra €14m a year'

Elmo

http://www.iftn.ie/news/index3.htm?fuseaction=getbody&file=2866

Can we merge and close this thread with the one in the broadcasting forum.

S4C also show C4's programming.

ishmael whale

http://www.iftn.ie/news/index3.htm?fuseaction=getbody&file=2866
“Irish animation Series, ‘The Island of Inis Cool’, which was first screened on TG4 in October, has recently begun airing on Dutch television station NED3, with unprecedented success.
According to audience figures released by the Dutch station, each episode has attracted over 146,000 viewers, making it one of the highest watched animation series on television in the Netherlands. ….. An English version will also be broadcast later this year on TG4”

I’m always glad to see an Irish success story, which clearly shows the potential which might be unleashed if such a large proporation of available State funds wasn’t diverted to Irish language programming.

I’m not clear why you want to close this thread so abruptly. I’ve no extra comments at the moment, but the issue of TG4’s level of state funding still seems to be a developing story.

Gael

Excellent. Tg4 have excelled one again despite all the naysayers. And despite getting about one hundred times more money than TG4 RTE make ****e like the Cassidy's and show us American and English stuff that we could watch on other English language channels anyway.

TG4 is a bit like MacGyver. All they have as resources are a paper clip and some grass and they still manage to build an electric genrator out of that!

ishmael whale

Gael wrote:

TG4 is a bit like MacGyver. All they have as resources are a paper clip and some grass and they still manage to build an electric genrator out of that!

That's the myth, but reality doesn't bear it out.

http://www.rte.ie/about/organisatio...ort/2003eng.pdf

Page 19 of the RTE annual report apportions the 2003 €150 million Licence Fee as follows:

An Post/DCMNR/Broadcasting Fund €16.5 million

Minority RTÉ Services (RTÉ RnaG/RTÉ Performing Groups/RTÉ lyric fm/TG4 Support) €34.5 million

RTÉ Radio 1 €12 million

RTÉ Network 2 €30 million

RTÉ One €57 million

At present, TG4 gets about €30 million, including about €7 million worth of programmes made by RTE. So they get about the same amount of subsidy as RTE 2. That's very generous treatment for a 3% audience share. And RTE One’s level of subsidy is of the same order as TG4 - as in twice as much funding for a vastly larger audience does not seem excessive.

Plus bear in mind that TG4's top ten list regularly features old English language movies rather than the Irish language programmes they commission -and the viewers of those old movies are included in their 3% audience share.

RTE 1's schedule features plenty of home prduced programmes that attract audiences that dwarf TG4. I think its RTE 2 that attracts the ire of people for broadcasting too much foriegn programming. But, if TG4 are snaffling such a large share of state subsidies, its hardly a wonder.

Gael

Link doesn't work.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Elmo

RTÉ Network 2 €30 million

If i have to say it again RTÉ2 don't do anything with their 30million no investment into the Irish Industry. You can see why the SPI are in favour of an increase since TG4 acutally use the money they are given.

Also you will note that the increase that they are looking for is in increments over 4 years not just 14million extra this year.
RTE will get just as much of an increase over the next 4 years.
Over the next 4 years TG4 will see increased funding anyway due to inflation.

I’m not clear why you want to close this thread so abruptly. I’ve no extra comments at the moment, but the issue of TG4’s level of state funding still seems to be a developing story.

Because you keep repeating yourself as do I. Perhaps I will stop replying.

I’m always glad to see an Irish success story, which clearly shows the potential which might be unleashed if such a large proporation of available State funds wasn’t diverted to Irish language programming.

RTE have 150,000,000 from the licence fee. Fine they also have Radio Stations. But lets face it RTE cut cost by giving each of the radio and TV stations the same news and sports Rooms (TG4 also have access to their news). But on the whole RTE Radio 1 does not need major funding, RTE 2FM doesn't get any as far as I know and from what I can see RTE 2 certainly does not need funding if tv3 is anything to go by.

I think there are major problems with Irish TV but TG4 is not one of them.

RTE 2 spend 30,000,000 on what and yet also have 45,000,000 from advertising. No success stories from RTE2.

And lost 10,000,000 euro while TG4 broke-even.

RTE 2 spent 27,250,000 on Sport, 10,768,000 on Imports, 49,834,000(includes sport) on Irish Productions. On drama they spent 7,000,000 on what The Big Bow Wow and The Choosen. 2,626,000 on entertainment, what entertainment shows? 804,000 on The Last Broadcast and Song from another room.

TG4 spent 2,225,000 on sport and 2,337,000 on Imports. And 24,551,000(includes sport) on Irish Productions.

So what I am saying is that TG4 are making shows while RTE2 buys in shows and sport.

RTE 1 spent 31,707,000 on indo productions
RTE 2 spent 12,927,000 on indo productions
TG4 spent 15,604,000 on indo productions

ishmael whale

Elmo wrote:

If i have to say it again RTÉ2 don't do anything with their 30million no investment into the Irish Industry. You can see why the SPI are in favour of an increase since TG4 acutally use the money they are given. ……. So what I am saying is that TG4 are making shows while RTE2 buys in shows and sport.

RTE 1 spent 31,707,000 on indo productions
RTE 2 spent 12,927,000 on indo productions
TG4 spent 15,604,000 on indo productions

You contradict yourself here when, by your own figures, RTE 2 are shown as investing nearly as much as TG4.

Incidently, just to show again how little TG4’s Irish language programming is achieving, here’s their latest week’s TAM ratings. They reflect the pattern of previous weeks we have seen.

1. Glór Tíre 2.2 84 7%
2. GAA Beo 2.1 77 13%
3. Without A Trace 1.8 68 10%
4. The Hanging Tree 1.5 56 4%
5. Neelo 1.5 55 4%
6. Survivor 9 1.3 48 4%
7. The Whistle Blower 1.3 48 4%
8. The O.C. 1.2 44 3%
9. Cold Case 1.2 44 7%
10. An Showband Seó 1.1 43 6%

That’s five English language programmes, two music programmes with a C&W slant and one sport. Of the other two I actually saw a bit of Neelo and during the part I saw they were simply speaking English – no need for subtitling there. I have no idea what Survivor 9 is – is it a dubbed reality TV offering?

How anyone can justify increased funding for more Irish language programming by TG4 in the light of this is beyond me.

Elmo wrote:

Also you will note that the increase that they are looking for is in increments over 4 years not just 14million extra this year. RTE will get just as much of an increase over the next 4 years.

I have seen no reference to RTE getting a fee increase, and in any case my point is any additional funding would surely be better spent on domestically produced programmes in English.

Elmo wrote:

Because you keep repeating yourself as do I.

Two things have sparked my last couple of comments. One was a new press item saying SPI wanted an increase for TG4 ten times the size of any increase for promoting the general Irish film industry, supported by an erroneous argument that Norn Iron provided better subsidies for Irish language programming. Refuting a new argument is not repeating myself. The second item was Gael repeating the basic error that TG4 get far less funding than RTE. Clearly this mistake needed to be cleared up with the relevant information showing TG4 is generously funded compared to RTE.

Elmo wrote:

I think there are major problems with Irish TV but TG4 is not one of them.

It is part of the problem. Its taking one quarter of the available subsidy and wasting it on programmes that go largely unwatched.

Elmo wrote:

RTE 2 spend 30,000,000 on what and yet also have 45,000,000 from advertising. No success stories from RTE2.

From your own figures RTE nearly spend as much as TG4 on independent productions, and the fact that they manage to attract 45,000,000 from advertising (compared to TG4 negligible advertising revenue) is proof that they are more consistently managing to reach people. Give RTE2 money, ring fenced for domestic production, and you can at least have some confidence of getting a result. The same simply cannot be said about TG4.

Now I really will repeat myself. TG4 has no clothes. The PR about its ‘success’ doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

Elmo

It is funny how we both look at the emporse new clothes story.

In my opinion RTE 2 (The Empore) Spends lots of money on nothing, nada, yet everyone seems to think that they spend lots and lots of money on great new Irish programming which is not the case. They just give over loads of money to producers (the tailors) for nothing nada, making them naked and noone at all whats to put up their hand and say you make no programming (You realise your naked don't you).

On the other hand TG4 spend as much as they can on new programming which we can all see by looking, not only at the tam ratings that have 5 or 6 irish shows, but you can also see it in there schedule that they produce Irish TV. you have to realise that there Irish list of shows which the also publish is just as good as all of their shows top ten.

Let me just give the RTE 2 top twenty

1 Champions League Soccer
Man Utd v Sparta Prague Wed 242 SPORT
2 Home and Away Fri 175
3 The Premiership Live
Chelsea v Everton Sat 169 SPORT
4 CSI Miami Tue 164
5 Father Ted Mon 147
6 Film:
Starship Troopers (Part 1) Thu 147
7 The Premiership Sat 140
8 The Panel Mon 122 IRISH
9 Stew Mon 117 IRISH
10 Film:
Starship Troopers (Part 2) Thu 110
11 Two Wild: Animal Camera Tue 109
12 The A-Team Sat 103
13 Two Extreme: Mayday Thu 100
14 Two Wild: Natural World Thu 99
15 Film:
You Only Live Twice Fri 97
16 The Coldest March Sat 96
17 Two Wild: Predator Bay Tue 95
18. Film:
The Opportunists Fri 94
19 Film:
Trainspotting Sat 92
20 Shameless Sun 89

All figures in '000


And over on TG4

1. Glór Tíre 84 IRISH (Minority Music)
2. GAA Beo 77 IRISH (Did RTE ever show league GAA matches)
3. Without A Trace 68 (Far better then Home And Away)
4. The Hanging Tree 56 Movie
5. Neelo 55 IRISH
6. Survivor 9 48 MMMM(Wonder about this one myself)
7. The Whistle Blower 48 MOVIE
8. The O.C. 44 (Rather watch it then Home and Away)
9. Cold Case 44 (ditto)
10. An Showband Seó 43 IRISH (Minority Music)
11. Ros na Rún 40 IRISH (Far better then Fair City)
12. Fíorscéal 37 Austrial/Irish
13. Underdogs 37 IRISH
14. Underdogs 34 REPEAT IRISH
15. An Tuath Nua 33 IRISH (Far better than Nationwide)

Fine my list for TG4 is flawed as I am sure with in the 15 the final 5 may have other american programmes in it, but I think I prove my point that TG4 is making shows while RTE2 wastes more of our money. And RTE2's ratings are getting worse and worse. And they contiune to make losses.

Give RTE2 money, ring fenced for domestic production, and you can at least have some confidence of getting a result.

Only about 20,000,000 is ring fenced for indepentend producers (Ring fenced by RTE they're in house productions far exceed the amount of money TG4 gets and has for their in house productions and Indepent productions) for RTE 1 AND 2. RTE 1 AND 2 unlike TV3 may make as little Home Productions as they wish, while TV3 must have 15% programming and 20mins of news in prime time. (They make up the 15% by Ireland AM, Sports Tonight and The News). TG4 are the same as RTE they don't need to produce anything but I would guess that TG4 would be less of an Irish lanuage station if they stop producing anything.

Indeed I agree with you I think RTE 2 should have give 7pm to 9pm to independent producers or RTE's IPU unit and give them 30,000,000 to make 2 hours of TV per night. Espically when RTE 2 don't try to compete with the soaps at this time of the evening.

I have seen no reference to RTE getting a fee increase, and in any case my point is any additional funding would surely be better spent on domestically produced programmes in English.

RTE if they wanted could reduce their acquisitions which cost them 25,000,000 euro to around 5,000,000 and invest the 20,000,000 in Irish Programming. RTE through the new arrangement for the licence will see it increase with inflation, this year they got 3 euros extra.

Lets face it TG4 have some quality aquisitions for the 3,000,000 the spend on them OZ, One Tree Hill, The OC, Without a trace, Carnavale, Nip/Tuc, Curb ur Enthuism etc etc RTE and TV3 would love to have some of those shows if not all of them, if RTE had got them we would be gaurenteed that they would put them on RTE 2 at 2 IN THE MORNING. And that is where RTE 2 puts 25,000,000 euro on a night time schedule.

bonkey

Elmo wrote:

In my opinion RTE 2 (The Empore) Spends lots of money on nothing, nada, yet everyone seems to think that they spend lots and lots of money on great new Irish programming which is not the case. They just give over loads of money to producers (the tailors) for nothing nada, making them naked and noone at all whats to put up their hand and say you make no

programming (You realise your naked don't you).

Hold on Elmo...

This is the second time you said that they produce nothing, despite you producing figures to say that they spend 12,000,000 a year on independant programming.

How is this possible?

jc

The Corinthian

Sand wrote:

Outsource public broadcasting as it were

RTE already does that, it famously outsourced Father Ted to Channel Four... I mean... it famously turned down Father Ted and it ended up going to Channel Four. RTE is very good at not doing anything innovative with our licence fees.

sceptre

The Corinthian wrote:

I mean... it famously turned down Father Ted and it ended up going to Channel Four.

I hear they once turned down an urban myth about them turning down Father Ted as well.

They were never offered Ted, even though almost everyone seems to think they were

The Corinthian

sceptre wrote:

They were never offered Ted, even though almost everyone seems to think they were

Dermot Morgan seemed to think he'd approached RTE originally. What on Earth would he have known though..?

Elmo

This is the second time you said that they produce nothing, despite you producing figures to say that they spend 12,000,000 a year on independant programming.

Yes indeed. Just to explain

The empore (RTE2) asked the top tailors of the land to make him the best suit ever designer top deal etc etc the tailors (Producers) got 12,000,000 euro and made him a suit and convinced him that it was the best then he went out in it, but he was naked. Do you get me know.

Actually I don't have a major problem with the Indos getting money, or them making programmes but I have more of a problem when I cann't name very many of the shows they produce.

The Panel
Rodge And Podge
Blizzard of Odd
mmmm

They produce the Dinner Party themselves. (In house RTE have a seprate budget for that). In house RTE producers I perfer to see as the Tailors.

Ok lets go over one more time

RTE 2 spends in excess of 30,000,000+ euro on home produced shows and I can name 4. This figure excludes sports.

Elmo

Dermot Morgan seemed to think he'd approached RTE originally. What on Earth would he have known though..?

Actually he had approached them about other projects the writers of the show Fr. Ted didn't approach RTE.

Also I don't think it would have be successful on RTE why:-

1. "Down with that kind of thing"
2. The critics slaugtered it the first time round.

ishmael whale

Elmo wrote:

On the other hand TG4 spend as much as they can on new programming

The point is not whether or not TG4 spend their money on independent Irish productions. The point is TG4’s efforts are in vain as few of those programmes get watched much. There’s no point in listing TG4s top ten programmes, annexing on their next most popular five Irish language and calling it a top 15. Its their top ten within a 3% audience share.

What I take out of this discussion is particular dissatisfaction with RTE 2. Prehaps their existing resources could be better managed. But additional resources for TG4 simply amounts to throwing good money after bad.

Elmo wrote:

1. Glór Tíre 84 IRISH (Minority Music)

You have rather sensitively described this programme as ‘Minority Music’. Is a more correct description a talent show similar to Eurostar, but with a Country and Western theme? I just think its important, when people are trying to justify TG4 on grounds of the high quality of their innovative programming, that we have a clear picture of what this actually means.

Incidently, TV3 support more public funding for TG4 to allow it to broadcast 100% in Irish. Clearly people can interpret their motivations for saying this however they want. My interpretation is they recognise that more public funding for TG4 means less for RTE, and therefore less domestic domestic competition for them. It would suit TV3 if public resources were diverted into making Irish language programmes that people don’t watch, rather than invested by RTE in programmes that might attract an audience.

http://www.tv3.ie/submission.htm
“We support the proper funding of TG4 to carry out its requirement to be a 100% Irish language broadcaster.”

Incidently, TV3 also say “Including the programming and news services provided to TG4 by RTE, free of charge, it is apparent that TG4 has an operating budget larger than TV3. TG4 is almost totally funded by state aid. It should be noted that even with that funding, TG4 produces just over 30% of its content in the Irish language.”

I stress I’m not holding up RTE as the very pinnacle of an effective state company. I’m simply pointing out that TG4’s reputation for doing a lot with very little is undeserved.

TG4 may make/commission programmes, but they get a large lump of available public money to do it. Some of those programmes may be innovative, but few get much of an audience and many are simply Irish language remakes of the usual formulas.

Elmo

apparent that TG4 has an operating budget larger than TV3.

TV3 gave Canwest €6.8 million this year. So a 45% shareholder gets 6.8million for what? that means that nearly 13,000,000 went to investors.

According to TV3 they spend 2 times as much on home programming as they do on Aquired programming.

RTE spend 25,000,000 on imports, I guess that TV3 spend maybe 15,000,000 on imports. So TV3 are telling me that the spend 30,000,000 on Ireland AM, The News and Sports.

I’m simply pointing out that TG4’s reputation for doing a lot with very little is undeserved.

I don't think that Glore Tire is the most orginall programme on TG4. But then Mr. Whale you aren't looking at the full schedule your looking at the top shows and rarely do you get good populist shows on the TV. Winning Streak, Coronation Street, Fair City etc etc not high quality stuff now are they. You have to look futher Mr. Whale.

Neelo, Amu, Underdogs, Bia's Bothar,Inis Cuil,Cogar and other documentry series.

TG4 produces just over 30% of its content in the Irish language

TV3 also state they provide 50% of there programming from Europe as part of their requirement from the EU as part of the EU's TV without frontiers programme. Coronation Street, Emmerdale, Heartbeat, Ant and Dec etc etc make up TV3's requirement. Well done TV3.

It would suit TV3 if public resources were diverted into making Irish language programmes

Yes and TV3 wouldn't have to bid againist TG4 when it comes to foreign Programming from the states. Reduse competition on that front to.

I will agree with you the amount of programming has reduced on TG4 and I have stated before that I agree with a change in the amount of programming being made.

But do not go on about TG4 when RTE 2 and TV3 don't do half as much with the same amount of money wether it be publicly funded or through advertising.

Lets face it RTE 2 = TV3. Why it gets 30,000,000 is beyond me.

but few get much of an audience and many are simply Irish language remakes of the usual formulas.

But again its an Irish Lanuage Channel that is its PSB.

ishmael whale

The bottom line is TG4 just does what you would expect it to do - it produces Irish language programmes for small audiences with a budget that is comparable to other Irish broadcasters - both state and private sector. I think this one simple truth has been clearly made, and hopefully we will see an end to people pretending TG4 is performing some miracle with loaves and fishes.

Elmo wrote:

But again its an Irish Lanuage Channel that is its PSB.

Fine, I would not expect an Irish language station get a big audience. Neither would I expect people to make extravagent claims on its behalf. And simply saying its PSB doesn't mean it can produce any old nonsense and excuse away its lack of audience on grounds that a version of eurostar in Irish is of enduring cultural merit.

Elmo

And simply saying its PSB doesn't mean it can produce any old nonsense and excuse away its lack of audience on grounds that a version of eurostar in Irish is of enduring cultural merit.

And you can apply that statement to RTE as well.

I am more pissed off by RTE 2 and TV3. They lack so much and both companies could if they wanted do something with them.

TV3 should be doing the populist shows.

IMO
Lets face it tomorrow RTE could deside to spend 60,000,000 of the licence fee on RTE 2 plus what ever advertising revenue it has. They are just not interested. What a waste.
IMO

ishmael whale

http://www.breakingnews.ie/2004/12/23/story181734.html
SPI calls for more support from Irish broadcasters
23/12/2004 - 10:51:21

”Screen Producers Ireland …. called on RTÉ to commit 3% of the license fee it receives to feature film production from 2005 onwards….”

This is far more reasonable than their earlier calls for increasing TG4’s level of funding. But then you go to their website, and right up in front of you there’s that dumb report they did that bangs on about the amount of funding Welsh language TV gets without recognising that Welsh language TV is better funded than RTE, never mind TG4.

I haven’t read the full report. I gave up when I got to their economic impact assessement, which fits into the kind of ‘the more you spend the more you save’ spin beloved of sectional interest groups. However, their section attempting to outline the general Irish language context is a good example of how Irish public debate tends to skirt around issues as participants shield some personal interest. In the course of one page they:

1. Point out that Irish is the first official language of the State. Of course this status would only make sense if most people spoke the language, but sense doesn’t enter the equation here. The Constitution gives them a stick to beat us with, so beat us they will.

2. It mentions Gaeltacht areas as a key feature of the policy landscape, which as we know are areas where the net is cast wide and includes large tracts of country with no particular Irish language population.

3. It mentions compulsory Irish in the educational system as the traditional ‘vanguard’ of revival, rather than the space where the revival efforts failed leaving a legacy of hostility to the language. The irony of compulsory Irish is they managed to make many of us regard the language as part of an imposed alien culture.

4. They note the growth of Gaelscoileanna without noting that in Dublin their popularity is assisted by parents seeking a way of getting lower pupil/teacher ratios for their children.

5. They present statistics that we would all recognise as misleading, attempting to suggest that over 40% of the population are Irish speakers. I’m probably counted as one of them, or at least many people with my level of knowledge are included.

All in all it’s the usual denial and avoidance of issues. At the end of the day SPI are happy to come out with any old nonsense so long as it makes a superficial case for more funding for them.

Which leaves me truly feeling that SPI should simply follow the example of Michael O’Leary and provide a service that people want. Make some films worth watching, lads, that’s the secret.

http://www.screenproducersireland.com/documents/spi_TG4_000.pdf?PHPSESSID=7fd8c98526e73146e78cc401e3a128a8

“According to the Irish Constitution of 1938, Irish is the ‘first official language of the state’ and currently there is a strong ‘push’ by Ireland to have it treated as one of the ‘official’ languages of the European Union…… National policy, over the past eighty years, has included a commitment to maintaining Irish as a live, spoken language, with a prominent position at all levels of Irish life generally, and in the educational system in particular. Recently (in October 2001), that commitment was reaffirmed by the Irish Government in its definitive response to Article 25 of the Council of Europe’s Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities, though the response contained no specific reference to Irish Language broadcasting.

To complement its commitment to the language, the Irish government also promotes the economic, social and cultural development of Irish-speaking areas (Gaeltachtaí), using primarily Údarás na Gaeltachta and Roinn na Gaeltachta, but also involving Meitheal Forbartha na Gaeltachta, to spearhead those efforts. ……

The results from the national commitment to the preservation and promotion of Irish are best reflected in the Irish education system, where, for decades, Irish was mandatory at all levels. Since the 1960’s, there has been continuing pressure for some relaxation of the ‘compulsory Irish’ factor in that system and, over the subsequent decades, there has been an ‘easing’ of the pressure to use education as the vanguard for the preservation and promotion of Irish.

The growth in regular usage of Irish is reflected in the numbers who now speak and understand it, and in the increasing use of Gaelscoileanna, on a voluntary basis, within the education systems, north and south of the border.

Ability to speak Irish has been increasing since the 1960’s, according to census data; comparison of the results from the 1996 and 2002 censuses in the Republic indicates that the number of Irish-speakers increased by more than 140,00 over that six-year period (from 1,430,205 to 1,570,894) and that the proportion of Irish-speakers increased from 41.1% to 41.9%.”

Rock Climber

I'm wondering what this has to do with politics.
Surely it's for the television board or the broadcasting board or somewhere?

ishmael whale

There is a politics angle. A question relating to public funding, such as how the state funds broadcasting, seems appropriate to politics. Equally a campaign by a pressure group for funding seems appropriate to politics. And to the extent this involves policy on Irish language, it also seems appropriate to politics.