Tirol International Open PPC 1500; Hopfgarten, Austria; 8th to 11th October 2004.

gouda

Tirol International Open PPC 1500; Hopfgarten, Austria; 8th to 11th October 2004.

This is an old and established competition running for more than 10 years; it is one of the three most important pistol 1500 events in Europe. This would be regarded as the Wimbledon of the PPC 1500 pistol world such is the high standard of the participants. More than 80% of the Hopfgarten participants are among the top shooters of Europe.

The Team consisted of John and Michael Walls of Fingal Target Sporting Club, Dave Cooney of Fassaroe Sporting Club, Pat Herlihey of Fermoy Rifle Club, with the Team coach and Team Captain Elmar Eggerer of Fingal Sporting Club. All members trained with limited equipment leading up to the match but managed to practice sufficiently to ensure a very credible performance.

The open match saw Michael Walls of Fingal Target Sporting Club outperform a former European Champion, Czech professional shooter Emil Fejer. Nine nations were represented at the event Austria, Germany, Czech Republic, Hungary, Belgium, Norway, Sweden, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

The Irish contingent was the third largest group after the home country Austria and Germany. This was the first time an Irish Team had entered this competition and it was a first for all of the Irish Team.

Teams were made up of a pair, and Irish shooters participated in all disciplines, scoring in all 10 events. The Irish team were ranked in the top 10 in every event.

The Irish Two-Man Teams representing the National Rifle and Pistol Association of Ireland were Team Ireland 2 – John and Michael Walls – who beat Team Ireland 1 – Dave Cooney and Pat Herlihey – into second place, in a field of 22 teams.

Results:
Main Match: 1st Michael Walls, 3rd Dave Cooney, 5th John Walls, 6th Pat Herlihey.
Open Match: 1st Michael Walls, 2nd Elmar Eggerer, 6th Dave Cooney 7th John Walls.
Distinguished Revolver: 1st John Walls, 2nd Pat Herlihey
Distinguished Pistol: 3rd Michael Walls, 5th Pat Herlihey, 6th Dave Cooney
Service Revolver: 1st John Walls, 4th Michael Walls, 5th Dave Cooney, 6th Elmar Edgerer
Stock Semi-Auto: 3rd Dave Cooney, 4th Elmar Eggerer, 5th Path Herlihey.
Off Duty Revolver: 1st Michael Walls, 2nd John Walls
Team totals and Individual positions: 6 First Positions, 7 Second Positions and 3 third positions.

In addition to individual and team prizes the team won an additional 12 prizes ranging from high quality shooting glasses to Austrian Home Cured Bacon, which goes to prove that the NRPAI representatives have “brought home the bacon”, 32½ years late but that was outside their control!

All results were achieved by Irish Team members with Target Pistols and Revolvers that were borrowed from Custom Gunsmith Ralf Merkle of Stuttgart, the organizing club, and other competitors.

With their very credible performance the Irish Competitors made such an impression that the NRPAI has been accepted into The World Association 1500, which is the world wide governing body for PPC 1500. The Irish representatives to be sent as delegates into the World Association 1500 Council will be announced shortly.

Such was the good will generated that top ranking officials and shooting coaches from Germany and Austria have offered to come to Ireland at their own expense to help promote shooting sports in Ireland and help with the provision of top class coaching to potential Irish international competitors. We are looking forward to the proposed visit of German Association 1500 Chief Friedrich Storrer of the BDMP.

The Irish Team were very well received and were provided with an enthusiastic welcome from all other participating countries, the Irish Flag was flown proudly on the team car and in the coaching zone throughout the competition. Particularly well received was the address of thanks given by Pat Herlihey Secretary of the NRPAI in Irish and English and translated into German by Team Coach and Captain Elmar Eggerer.

The Irish Team’s excellent results where greatly influenced by the excellent coaching, planning, support and organization provided for by Team Coach and Captain, Dr Elmar Eggerer, MA, PhD; his long term involvement with European 1500 PPC Competitions was evident in the excellent results achieved in such a short time by essentially an inexperienced Irish Team; one wonders about the success capability of the Irish Competitors given the appropriate equipment and the time for preparation.

Such was the hospitality and services provided by the Hopfgarten club, and as well as the friendly attitude and approach of all the shooters, that the places have already been booked by the Irish Team for next years Tirol International Open.

Sparks

the NRPAI has been accepted into The World Association 1500

Nice accomplishment for a non-NGB...

oldzed

Sparks wrote:

Nice accomplishment for a non-NGB...

Sparks if that is all you can add to the great accomplishment that the guys managed you should just shut up . the whole world does not revolve around the handful of Irish ISSF Shooters. Well done to all involved in the Austrian open It is a great achievement to win anything in a competition like this against extremely strong opposition some of whom do this for a living .Especially considering it was done with borrowed guns and little practice time with them. Hopefully by next year all going well we will be much better prepared and we will be able to enter a team who can bring their own guns and who have the ability to practice on Irish ranges close to home and not be hampered with having to travel to the north and the isle of mann etc to train . I hope this is the start of a great future for Irish Pistol Teams . They are a great bunch of guys , I know most of the guys well and its great to see Dave Cooney competing again as he was Irish Pistol champion in 72 before they took in the Pistols and its great that he kept the faith and is still shooting competiitive pistol 32 years later despite all the roadblocks placed in our way. I have a licence got for my 9mm target pistol and am looking forward to bringing it in and busting my ass to try make the grade for next years competition . If someone wins something they should be congratulated and not have to listen to someone whine about the organisational BS which is the killer in every sport . Once more Well done lads .

gouda

oldzed wrote:

Sparks if that is all you can add to the great accomplishment that the guys managed you should just shut up . the whole world does not revolve around the handful of Irish ISSF Shooters. Well done to all involved in the Austrian open It is a great achievement to win anything in a competition like this against extremely strong opposition some of whom do this for a living .Especially considering it was done with borrowed guns and little practice time with them. Hopefully by next year all going well we will be much better prepared and we will be able to enter a team who can bring their own guns and who have the ability to practice on Irish ranges close to home and not be hampered with having to travel to the north and the isle of mann etc to train . I hope this is the start of a great future for Irish Pistol Teams . They are a great bunch of guys , I know most of the guys well and its great to see Dave Cooney competing again as he was Irish Pistol champion in 72 before they took in the Pistols and its great that he kept the faith and is still shooting competiitive pistol 32 years later despite all the roadblocks placed in our way. I have a licence got for my 9mm target pistol and am looking forward to bringing it in and busting my ass to try make the grade for next years competition . If someone wins something they should be congratulated and not have to listen to someone whine about the organisational BS which is the killer in every sport . Once more Well done lads .

Amen to that.

civdef

Great achievement by those involved.

Are there plans in place to start similar competitions at national level?


(edited to fix typo)

Sparks

Thank you oldzed, for assuming I don't know anything about the guys that went (I've known Dave for nearly a decade) or that my concerns regarding the discipline are based on personal petty preferences (they're not, they're based on two things - what the ISSF and IOC have stated regarding them; and on what the media would do with this if they looked at it). Truth is, I know more about how this was organised than I've said, and there's a lot of dodgy stuff going on behind the scenes on this one. Formal complaints have been made regarding how it was organised, and several aspects of it were out-and-out sneaky. This doesn't reflect on those who went and shot; it reflects on those who arranged it. Right now we're in a very sensitive time regarding pistols in Ireland - and this trip was ill-advised to say the least, and the manner of its organisation was exceptionally dodgy.

civdef

Dodgy in a legal/moral way or just some internal organisation politics thing?

The former would be a problem, the latter less so.

Sparks

Sorry civ, should have made that clear - it wasn't dodgy legally, unless you count the NRPAI's rules as legalities, it was dodgy from an internal organisational point of view. That doesn't mean it's trivial, mind - what the NRPAI does (or what's done in it's name) reflects on the constituent bodies of the NRPAI and thus affects most of the rifle/pistol target shooters in the country.

gouda

Sparks wrote:

Thank you oldzed, for assuming I don't know anything about the guys that went (I've known Dave for nearly a decade) or that my concerns regarding the discipline are based on personal petty preferences (they're not, they're based on two things - what the ISSF and IOC have stated regarding them; and on what the media would do with this if they looked at it). Truth is, I know more about how this was organised than I've said, and there's a lot of dodgy stuff going on behind the scenes on this one. Formal complaints have been made regarding how it was organised, and several aspects of it were out-and-out sneaky. This doesn't reflect on those who went and shot; it reflects on those who arranged it. Right now we're in a very sensitive time regarding pistols in Ireland - and this trip was ill-advised to say the least, and the manner of its organisation was exceptionally dodgy.

This is not the first time you have alluded to "dodgy" dealings of the NRPAI,perhaps you should put the info on the record through some means or other. It does not do you any good to make these allegations and perhaps influence people negatively about the NRPAI without stating what the issues are. It is possible some could be resolved through the forum. ISSF and the IOC are not infallible they are just involved with different disciplines.Info on how this was organised would be helpful as if it was indeed dodgy,members could protest to the NRPAI.

Sparks

Gouda, I have put it on record, I've complained to both the chairman of the NRPAI and the treasurer, in writing, on the record, both on this incident and others in the past.

The problem here is that this entire event was organised without the NRPAI committee's knowlege. The first they heard of it formally was the monday before the competition, by which time a team had been formed and invitations issued - and it was me who told them, not the person who organised this (I'd mentioned it informally to the chairman a week or so previously, but again, he'd heard nothing else about it until the Monday. There'd been no meetings to discuss it, no notification from the person doing the organising, nothing). The first NRPAI meeting to discuss it was two days after the competition. And yet, an Irish National team was sent (what were the selection criteria? No-one knows); the NRPAI was signed up to an international body, presumably as an NGB; invitations to come to Ireland were issued to people on behalf of the NRPAI; and invitations to send another team were accepted. Now, if the NRPAI is kept in the dark as to what is being done in it's name like that, what's next? What if someone were to meet with McDowell, claiming to be representing the NRPAI (in a similar fashion to this event's organisation) and they struck a deal to keep (say) .32 pistols and accepted the making illegal of all U-18 shooting in return?
There are reasons for having rules in the NRPAI - it represents a lot of interests and the rules exist to prevent one group stomping on another group's toes. So when those rules are ignored willfully, it makes me very, very nervous.

And noone is saying ISSF or the IOC are infalliable; what I was saying is that association with certain disciplines has caused the ISSF in the past to sanction NGBs - and if the NTSA is going to be sanctioned (which would be bloody serious for us), I'd like to see it happen because of something the NTSA decided to do, rather than something that someone did off their own bat in the name of the NRPAI, thus damning us by association without even consulting the NRPAI first.

civdef

Sparks wrote:

And noone is saying ISSF or the IOC are infalliable; what I was saying is that association with certain disciplines has caused the ISSF in the past to sanction NGBs - and if the NTSA is going to be sanctioned (which would be bloody serious for us), I'd like to see it happen because of something the NTSA decided to do, rather than something that someone did off their own bat in the name of the NRPAI, thus damning us by association without even consulting the NRPAI first.

Are we talking here about more elitism from the paragons virtue of ISSF?

Sparks

I'm not sure it's elitism civ - elitism would mean they'd sanction every other discipline. But they happily coexist with NSRA shooting, NRA (UK) shooting, NRA (US) shooting, bullseye pistol shooting, black powder shooting and damn near everything else that doesn't use human-shaped targets.

civdef

Re sanctions, hows that work then?

Will ISSF do horrible things to Ireland's pure and innocent NTSAI shooters because some members of NRPAI, of which NTSAI is part, went and shot a nasty handgun discipline?

Is it like the old GAA ban on their players having anything to do with "foreign sports"?

Sparks

The sanction detailed for the French version of the NRPAI was that the ISSF would no longer recognise them. That for us would mean no attending world cups, european championships, world championships, or the olympic games. It means that the olympic council wouldn't recognise us, and it would mean that the NRPAI would now be asking "why would we fund ISSF target shooting if we're not recognised by ISSF"?

Basicly, it'd be serious. No recognition, no Irish Team, no money, no chance for anyone to go to the Olympics.

And it's not like the GAA ban - individual shooters can go shoot in other disciplines. It's the associations that get the sanctions. (Mind you, those sanctions filter down pretty damn fast). But this was an "offical" Irish Team on the paperwork, and the NRPAI's now been signed up to the international body. This wasn't just some lads off to have a good weekend's shooting.

les45

I gather that the problem would be that the ISSF would have a blue fit due to our taking part in a PP1500 competition, under the NRPAI banner, am I right.

Sparks

That's the problem that would directly affect the NTSA les, yes - but it's not the only problem. It's also not the biggest problem from the point of view of the majority of shooters, though I'd like to think they'd be a bit concerned at us not being able to enter the Olympics, what with the positive effects that the Olympics has for all shooters.

I'd also like to think that an Irish Team going to an international event would be selected openly by a National Governing Body. If it was a few Irish shooters who wanted to go shoot in an open competition, that'd be a different kettle of fish completely.

les45

From memory about 15 shooters were interested in shooting, the team was picked from a hat!!

Sparks

les45 wrote:

From memory about 15 shooters were interested in shooting, the team was picked from a hat!!

Why didn't they go to N.Ireland and have a qualification shoot?
(ROI shooters from the City of Dublin Pistol Club have already been shooting in N.Ireland this year, it's not like it's logistically impossible...)

gouda

Sparks wrote:

Why didn't they go to N.Ireland and have a qualification shoot?
(ROI shooters from the City of Dublin Pistol Club have already been shooting in N.Ireland this year, it's not like it's logistically impossible...)

Probably because of the short notice, NRPAI members were emailed on this and asked if they were interested in attending. Selection was indeed done from a hat (or drum or whatever). The advantage of a team going to this particular competition seems to lie in the fact that there was an experienced 1500 competitor available to coach and also overcome any language problems. Next years competition could be an entirely different affair.

Sparks

I notice that the list of NRPAI members emailed about the competition apparently didn't include the NRPAI chairman or the NRPAI treasurer.

gouda

Sparks wrote:

I notice that the list of NRPAI members emailed about the competition apparently didn't include the NRPAI chairman or the NRPAI treasurer.

You would have to ask the NRPAI Secretary about that one, I would imagine that it is the Secretary's responsibility to keep a list of members email addresses.

Sparks

gouda wrote:

You would have to ask the NRPAI Secretary about that one, I would imagine that it is the Secretary's responsibility to keep a list of members email addresses.

You're not being serious, are you? The CHAIRMAN of the NRPAI wasn't told because noone knew his email address? Or his phone number? Or those of the Treasurer?
That's stretching credulity far too much.

gouda

Sparks wrote:

You're not being serious, are you? The CHAIRMAN of the NRPAI wasn't told because noone knew his email address? Or his phone number? Or those of the Treasurer?
That's stretching credulity far too much.

No I am saying it is the Secretary's responsibility to contact the members.

Sparks

Are you saying the Secretary knew of the team being entered then?

gouda

Sparks wrote:

Are you saying the Secretary knew of the team being entered then?

I don't know who the Secretary is so I cannot say. Need some zzzzzzzzzz's so off to bed.

gouda

Well worth a look but do not expect to find pictures of any Rambo types.
http://homepage.eircom.net/~ntsai/nrpa.html

Sparks

threads merged

Sparks

Interesting to note that there was sufficent time to get polo shirts and caps made up, but not enough to drop a phone call to the Chairman or the Treasurer of the NRPAI about the shoot, or to have a day's trip up North for a selection shoot...

gouda

Sparks wrote:

Interesting to note that there was sufficent time to get polo shirts and caps made up, but not enough to drop a phone call to the Chairman or the Treasurer of the NRPAI about the shoot, or to have a day's trip up North for a selection shoot...

Polo shirts and caps can be printed up in a short time in a lot of Dublin shopping centres,the Square in Tallaght comes to mind but there are quite a few others. Any response from the Chairman/Treasurer on this? Are they pleased with the RESULTS? It would be good to know how they feel about the actual competition. We could probably take it as read that they would not have been overjoyed about been kept in the dark but it would be nice to have their reaction to the shoot on the board if you could arrange this.

Sparks

I've passed on the URL to this thread to both the chairman and the treasurer gouda, but I think you're asking them to come along and say that the end justifies the means!

What if I walked into McDowells office on monday morning, claimed to be a member of the NRPAI (which, technically, I am) and offered to sign off on a deal that got us air pistols and .22 ISSF pistols back, in return for giving up on everything else? That's where this whole "let individuals do whatever they want and have the NRPAI sign off on it later" attitude can lead to!

As I said, there are reasons that a lobby group like the NRPAI has specific rules regarding how it operates. And this was a large, public example of those rules being flouted.

gouda

Sparks wrote:

I've passed on the URL to this thread to both the chairman and the treasurer gouda, but I think you're asking them to come along and say that the end justifies the means!

What if I walked into McDowells office on monday morning, claimed to be a member of the NRPAI (which, technically, I am) and offered to sign off on a deal that got us air pistols and .22 ISSF pistols back, in return for giving up on everything else? That's where this whole "let individuals do whatever they want and have the NRPAI sign off on it later" attitude can lead to!

As I said, there are reasons that a lobby group like the NRPAI has specific rules regarding how it operates. And this was a large, public example of those rules being flouted.

I'm not looking for them to do any such thing,I am asking how they feel about what has happened, I would not presume that they would be in agreement with the end result. I would like to hear their response,good or bad, I don't mind which.I do think that the Chairman should have put some response out to members,regardless of whether he is in favour or not. The report issued is on NRPAI letterhead so presumably comes with the authority of the NRPAI,if not the Chairman and Treasurer should disown it,otherwise it is seen as been sanctioned by the Committee. Wouldn't you agree?
I doubt if you would get access to his (McDowell) office but even if you did you are not one of the people authorised by the NRPAI to negogiate on this. I understand there are a few people who the DoJ recognise as representatives of the NRPAI with whom they have been dealing for a few years now. Perhaps you are on the team but I have not been made aware of it previously,so I stand to be corrcted on this one.