Rocco Buttiglione Commissionership controversy

arcadegame2004

Impasse in EU nominee controversy
Rocco Buttiglione
Not all European Parliament members are behind Mr Buttiglione
European Parliament leaders have failed to agree on the fate of Italy's controversial nominee for justice commissioner, Rocco Buttiglione.

They met earlier to try to end a crisis caused by MEPs' unprecedented rejection of Mr Buttiglione's candidacy.

Mr Buttiglione's conservative views on women and gays had troubled many MEPs.

Parliament President Josep Borrell said it would simply forward its views to the incoming Commission President, Jose Manuel Barroso.

Mr Barroso said on Tuesday he had full faith in his new team of 24 commissioners, including Mr Buttiglione.

EU law does not allow the European Parliament to accept or reject individual members of the commission - it can only veto an entire team.

Mr Barroso is next scheduled to meet parliament leaders on 21 October.

The BBC's European correspondent, Oana Lungescu, says he is likely to have to assure the parliament he can lead the commission with a strong hand and prevent individual commissioners' views from colouring their work.

Tit-for-tat battle

The parliament will vote on 27 October to decide whether to accept the new commission.

Mr Borrell said the meeting of leaders "did not adopt any common position" on incoming commission.

"Something new has happened, this is the first time that a committee votes explicitly against a specific commissioner," he said.

He said the situation, which "puts the parliament and the commission on virgin political ground", was unlikely to be resolved immediately.

There is also some controversy over the nomination of Hungarian socialist Laszlo Kovacs for the post of energy commissioner - conservatives in the parliament are believed to have questioned his suitability for the post.

The parliament is flexing its political muscle, says our correspondent, but everyone wants to avoid a tit-for-tat battle between the left and right that EU institutions can ill afford.

Mr Buttiglione, who is close to the Vatican and a member of the Christian Democrat UDC party, said during a confirmation hearing in Brussels that he considered homosexuality "a sin".

He went on to say the aim of marriage was "to allow women to have children and to have the protection of a male".

The former European Affairs minister insisted his personal views would not affect his new position as Europe's justice and home affairs commissioner.

What do people here think on this issue? Should someone with these kinds of attitudes towards gay people and women get the nod from the European Parliament? I understand that the European Parliament can only block his becoming a Commissioner by rejecting the entire Commission. I definitely would not feel comfortable, as a gay person, with someone like this holding the EU Justice portfolio. I would be concerned he might bring forward proposed EU laws to ban same-sex marriage. I admire Mr. Buttiglione's tough attitude to illegal immigration. Even so, I would prefer it if he voluntarily ended his candidacy for the Commissionership because his views on gay people are not the kind of values the EU should be encouraging. We need to move away from the idea that morality means ancient (and often contradictory) texts, and towards a view that morality means not harming others, in my opinion.

pete

Should someone with these kinds of attitudes towards gay people and women get the nod from the European Parliament?

My gut reaction would be no.

But the thing is... has he actually said anything that isn't part of the official catholic church party line?

OfflerCrocGod

pete wrote:

has he actually said anything that isn't part of the official catholic church party line?

WTF has the ****ing church got to do with the European Union? It's a secular organization and religion has no place in it. Neither does Signore Buttiglione, I would be happy if the whole lot were stopped because of this reject from the 1600s. God Berlusconi is such an embarrassment I'm always making fun of americans for electing Bush but Berlusconi is just as bad :mad:

gandalf

Errr is this guy Dana in drag ??

No I do not believe the EU should have any say on peoples private lives in that way. Same sex marraiges should be legal and peoples sexuality should be respected and not infringed. As for the Catholic Church please do not get me started on that mob!!!!!

Berlusconi should withdraw this candidate but I fear he won't because he is a stubborn and arrogant man.

Memnoch

i think anyone should be allowed to practise their belief and religion as long as it doesn't infringe on those of others.

If people want to be gay and get married then they should be. I simply CANNOT comprehend what fanatics have against "gay marriage" its not like anyone is forcing them to take part in it?

But this is nothing new, they opposed homosexuality for as long as they could in the mainstream, now that the mainstream has by and large accepted homosexuality, its now an issue of marriage.

People who are fanatical about their belief's being "right" will always insist on imposing them on others.

I suppose I'm fanatical in insisting that one's beliefs shouldn't infringe on someone else's and in doing so i'm being paradoxical as i'm insiting on infringing on someone else's belief to infringe upon someone else based on their beliefs... aaa i think i will go mad :P

pete

OfflerCrocGod wrote:

WTF has the ****ing church got to do with the European Union?

What the "****ing church" has to do with it is the fact that the man is a practising catholic and everything he's quoted as saying appears to be in line with standard catholic teachings*, ergo by this reasoning no catholics should be EU commissioners.

One out, all out.


* I may be wrong.

wheels of ire

'Culattoni' was the word used by the Italian Minister for Overseas Italians Tremaglia. It has been translated as 'gays' in most accounts.
It isn't. It's a seriously insulting word best translated literally ,and forgive the vulgarity.
Sphincter -Enlargers is the best I can do.
Interesting that such a man has such a job.But you may not know that these daft remarks have also been universally condemned by not only the Italian Press,but by some surprising people. Like Mussolini's grand daughter and all the former fascists, now Alleanaza Nazionale, amongst others.She said that there was no place for discrimation on racial or sexuality
Whilst on translations, 'Tremaglia' would seem to mean 'Three sweaters' which sounds a bit pink to me!

bonkey

pete wrote:

What the "****ing church" has to do with it is the fact that the man is a practising catholic and everything he's quoted as saying appears to be in line with standard catholic teachings*, ergo by this reasoning no catholics should be EU commissioners.

Yup.

Look - a candidate in this type of situation can do two things. They can openly lie about what they believe in, or they can admit what they believe in but say how it will not effect their job.

In the second US Presidential debate, Kerry - for example - pointed out that while his own Catholic upbringing said that abortion was wrong he could not and would not legislate for others based on his own religious beliefs.

Barroso has similarly said he won't let his beliefs interfere with his work. Personally, if one is going to object about hsi appointment, one should supply some reasoning as to why we should believe he is lying when he says this.

jc

The Corinthian

wheels of ire wrote:

'Culattoni' was the word used by the Italian Minister for Overseas Italians Tremaglia. It has been translated as 'gays' in most accounts.
It isn't. It's a seriously insulting word best translated literally ,and forgive the vulgarity.
Sphincter -Enlargers is the best I can do.

A very imaginative but inaccurate try, in that you are being overly creative in your translation. 'Bum boys' would be a more accurate one. Nonetheless, I thought this discussion was about Buttiglione and not Tremaglia.

Interesting that such a man has such a job.But you may not know that these daft remarks have also been universally condemned by not only the Italian Press,but by some surprising people. Like Mussolini's grand daughter and all the former fascists, now Alleanaza Nazionale, amongst others.She said that there was no place for discrimation on racial or sexuality

She actually left Alleanaza Nazionale a while back after its leader, Gianfranco Fini, publicly criticised both Fascism and Benito Mussolini.

OfflerCrocGod

The Corinthian wrote:

A very imaginative but inaccurate try, in that you are being overly creative in your translation. 'Bum boys' would be a more accurate one.

I agree with The Corinthian's translation.

bonkey wrote:

Barroso has similarly said he won't let his beliefs interfere with his work. Personally, if one is going to object about hsi appointment, one should supply some reasoning as to why we should believe he is lying when he says this.

He's a politician isn't it a job requirement? Seriously though I wouldn't want a person with those beliefs in any position of power, notwithstanding any promise they make to be impartial. Single women are "not good people", Vaffanculo Signor Barroso is all I've got to say.

Victor

arcadegame2004 wrote:

I would be concerned he might bring forward proposed EU laws to ban same-sex marriage.

I'm wondering where you thought this up. Is this the type of thing the EU does? Has it done such things before? Isn't the EU generally progressive on such issues? Aren't morality issues the domain of the members states, not the EU?

Redleslie2

I doubt whether there's a single member of the commission whose personal beliefs are 100% compatible with their job. Why is this guy the exception.

It's not as weird as having Mary Harney in charge of health though.

Sand

Its not about his personal beliefs though. I doubt anyone seriously believes this guy can bring about homosexuals being burnt at the stake - regardless of whether he would want that or not. The guy is simply affirming his catholic beliefs, the might not be christian but they are definitly catholic. He has promised that he will remove himself from the decision making process where his personal views might affect the outcome unduly. but again , his views arent the issue.

Its about a power play between the Barroso and the European Parliment. The MEPs have found a rallying point to unite around, something they can point to as a good reason to refuse the entire commission. Barroso might totally disagree with Buttigliones views, but at the same time he doesnt want to set a tone of surrender to the Parliment. Vice versa for the MEPs, they want to set out that they do matter, that the parliment is more than a talking shop and how better to do it than force Barroso to accede to their wishes.

Dont worry - this is liberal democracy in action. Hopefully the MEPs will succeed in bossing Barroso around, as it will introduce a bit more balance to the EU.

AngelofFire

What do people here think on this issue? Should someone with these kinds of attitudes towards gay people and women get the nod from the European Parliament? I understand that the European Parliament can only block his becoming a Commissioner by rejecting the entire Commission. I definitely would not feel comfortable, as a gay person, with someone like this holding the EU Justice portfolio

I despise homophobia, and i believe that gay couples should have the same rights as straight couples, his atitudes are neanderthal and i agree that it is even more worrying when you consider that he is chasing the justice portforlio.If they european parliament had any sense they wouldnt accept him. But if he does get in there will be no removing him from office unless, his views incite violence against gay people.

Victor

AngelofFire wrote:

But if he does get in there will be no removing him from office

The Commission can be removed from office, but only as a (w)hole.

Memnoch

Victor wrote:

The Commission can be removed from office, but only as a (w)hole.

aye thats quite annoying. Maybe its time to change that rule so that individuals can be rejected?

Makes more sense to me, as this guy definately should not be in this post.

Yes he is entitled to his opinion, but if his attitude is so homophobic and sexist then he really shouldn't be representing "europeans" at such a high level.

swiss

I can't remember his words verbatim, but I recall Buttiglione saying something to the effect of "I may say homosexuality is a sin, but it matters not unless I say homosexuality is a crime". To me, this shows that at the very least, the man has respect for the rights and freedoms afforded to homosexuals (and I can only assume women as well) as well as respect for the democratically appointed people and institutions that have afforded such freedoms.

Since he was democratically elected to the European Parliament in his own right, it is also fair to say that a number of his consitutents share, or at least condone these views. By refusing to back his appointment, the other Parliament members are essentially saying that such views do not belong in the Commission. While on a personal level, I would agree with this assessment part of a democratic institution is to acknowledge those views which may be outside what is considered the 'norm'. In this light, his appointment is no more contentious than hypothetically someone with ultra liberal views facing a similar appointment. It is a reflection of the people who elected him as much as the man himself and in seeking to combat it, it would be better to try and figure out why people have elected him, and what steps, such as education etc. could be put in place to perhaps reverse this trend.

Victor

Interesting. The 6-year old in me says he name sounds like Butt-ugly-and-lonely

Memnoch wrote:

aye thats quite annoying. Maybe its time to change that rule so that individuals can be rejected?

It's actually a good rule. It stops big parties and big countries excluding others.

arcadegame2004

swiss wrote:

I can't remember his words verbatim, but I recall Buttiglione saying something to the effect of "I may say homosexuality is a sin, but it matters not unless I say homosexuality is a crime". To me, this shows that at the very least, the man has respect for the rights and freedoms afforded to homosexuals (and I can only assume women as well) as well as respect for the democratically appointed people and institutions that have afforded such freedoms.

Since he was democratically elected to the European Parliament in his own right, it is also fair to say that a number of his consitutents share, or at least condone these views. By refusing to back his appointment, the other Parliament members are essentially saying that such views do not belong in the Commission. While on a personal level, I would agree with this assessment part of a democratic institution is to acknowledge those views which may be outside what is considered the 'norm'. In this light, his appointment is no more contentious than hypothetically someone with ultra liberal views facing a similar appointment. It is a reflection of the people who elected him as much as the man himself and in seeking to combat it, it would be better to try and figure out why people have elected him, and what steps, such as education etc. could be put in place to perhaps reverse this trend.

He wasn't elected to the European Parliament so I don't necessarily accept that there is proof that loads of people support his views as a proportion of the whole European population. In fact the current rules forbid someone being both a Commissioner and a European Parliament member (a rule I fail to understand the sense of). Maybe if all Commissioners were required to simulataneously be a member of the European Parliament we would see less of these people with extreme views actually getting to wield power in the corridoors of EU power.

Originally posted by Victor The Commission can be removed from office, but only as a (w)hole.

Just correcting you here, Victor. The Commission can be blocked FROM taking office in the first place if the European Parliament rejects its appointment in the first place. But to remove it from office requires a 2/3rds majority there.

I hope the Liberal group sides with the European Socialists and Nordic Greens/Communist grouping and Eurosceptics to block Buttiglione.

The Corinthian

arcadegame2004 wrote:

He wasn't elected to the European Parliament so I don't necessarily accept that there is proof that loads of people support his views as a proportion of the whole European population.

Buttiglione is an elected member of one of the national parliaments (in fact, he’s leader of one of the minor parties too). As such, he does have a mandate that shows support for his views, albeit a national one. Nonetheless, you would hardly claim that there is not a significant level of support for conservative Catholic politics in Europe? There’s enough on our fair isle to have elected Dana, after all.

In fact the current rules forbid someone being both a Commissioner and a European Parliament member (a rule I fail to understand the sense of). Maybe if all Commissioners were required to simulataneously be a member of the European Parliament we would see less of these people with extreme views actually getting to wield power in the corridoors of EU power.

The ‘lack of democracy’ is one of the worst contradictions in the European parliament. On one side, Eurosceptics will point to the Commission and argue that it is an unelected technocracy. Suggest that national governments should give up their right to appoint the Commission and pass power over to the parliament and the same Eurosceptics will balk at the loss of sovereignty.

Of course, on practical terms, what we see at present is exactly why commissioners elected from the parliament would not work. The European Commission is where the real power of the EU is stored, pass control of that to the parliament and you would soon find a heated (and ultimately self destructive) power struggle between it and all the national parliaments.

Etrurian

My God! What kind of image we show to our European brothers..
Buttiglione (in Italy considered a philsopher..) saying those words should be the proud of his electors and for the electors of actual Italian government, based only on tv spots and showgirls.
I hope a superb people like the Irish will continue considering us not like that clown of Tremaglia.. unfortunately our Parliament is only a group of thiefs and incapables, expecially the government of a President who cares only at his interests. Most of the italian people are only tv watchers without any trace of brain their head.. fortunately we aren't all in this way..

sorry for my english

klong

id would say that 10/12 years ago when gay marriage wasn't such a big issue, if an incoming commissioner has said he was in favour of gay marriage, it would have created a similar fuss. just goes to show how things have changed. would the parliament have decided not to vote in the commission then? would it have been wrong to have had him in that position as he could have "forced" EU states to accept gay marriage laws? personally i dont think it really matters

mike65

from bbc

EU row candidate stands down

Buttiglione caused outrage when he suggested homosexuality was a sin
Italy's controversial European Commission nominee, Rocco Buttiglione, has said he is standing down as commissioner-designate.

"I am ready to stand aside to smooth the way for (the) commission," he said.

Mr Buttiglione faced opposition from the European Parliament over his views on homosexuality and women.

Mike.

dahamsta

I wonder what favours Berlusconi got for that?

adam

Etrurian

dahamsta wrote:

I wonder what favours Berlusconi got for that?

adam

The question is another: how many other critics should italians receive for these kind of politics? Only Berlusconi with the "horns sign" at spanish minster or the "kapo" answer at the German should be banned from Italy!