Practical Pistol ! Has it a future in Ireland?

les45

I have read all of the various posts on the topic and my compliments to both Sparks and Igl F on a very well thought out and detailed discussion. I think the problem Sparks has with PP type events is the paper target we use!!, so per se if we removed the head box would this target be acceptable!, Sparks I would invite you to try PP , meet the people involved and then make up your mind.We recently had a group of shooters up from the Midland Club, they shot bullseye for 3 or 4 hrs ( 9000 rnds 9mm) and finished the day with a small PP stage a few Peper Poppers and some paper , the gang had a ball so much so they want to shot pp only next time they visit, and that is what PP is all about. I think that PP will take off in Ireland, I dont see any problem with PR, travel around any part of the country on the 1 st of Nov and you will meet lots of sportsmen and women with guns and dogs ,and at least in my part of Ireland nobody passes any remarks. The point is we have a better understanding of shooting , hunting , etc in Ireland and I hope that the Irish Public would treat any new shooting sport in a similar fashion

gouda

Sparks wrote:

Don't give them ideas! I've been trying to find the article, but haven't succeded, where the Gardai warned people that criminals were targeting high-powered cars for use in crimes and that they should secure their car keys.

That's the article I was thinking of. If the Gardai had their way none of us would own anything worth stealing thereby making their job so much easier. Any comments on this morning's front pages about the man shot in Mayo?

civdef

gouda wrote:

Any comments on this morning's front pages about the man shot in Mayo?

That's not on-topic for this thread, and as a new thread would only be relevant to this section in some respects.

gouda

civdef wrote:

That's not on-topic for this thread, and as a new thread would only be relevant to this section in some respects.

Ok but perhaps mentions of Dunblane,Hungerford, Abbeylara on earlier posts are also off topic?

civdef

Perhaps, though they relate to public perception of shooting, I suppose. Anyway, the line has to be somewhere, so here it is

The topic you brought up has several interesting aspects, if it was started on the appropriate section of the board, I'm sure it would receive plenty of comment.

Sparks

Mind you, we don't know any of the facts about the Mayo shooting except who was shot and where the body was found. We don't yet know for certain who shot him, with what, for what reason, or any of the circumstances surrounding the shooting, so it's not likely to be a productive discussion! The mentioning of Dunblane, Abbylara and others, however, was different in both context (I was referring to how the public think of "shooting" in general) and in how much we know (Abbylara is the only one with a still-open inquiry going on, and that - the Barr Tribunal - is not only of direct significane to shooters in Ireland, but it also happens to be the fifth investigation into Abbylara).

benhurt1

A point on human shaped targets....I have been shooting at them for the last ten years in the military but that does not mean I am going to buy a pistol and go out shooting my neighbors the day after!
A PAPER TARGET IS JUST THAT....PAPER, REGARDLESS OF SHAPE OR APPEARANCE.

1500

Hagar,

seems you got something wrong in your pictures. The World Association 1500 (which is the ultimate governing body for the Hopfgarten event) has for a number of years abandoned the use of human-shaped target and even changed the name of PPC 1500 to make clear that it is all about a sporting competition. The name of the competition is Precision Pistol Competition 1500, and the target is just an oval with the score rings printed white on black.
By the way, did you know that bullseye shooting (ISSF style) was introduced into the Olympic calendar by the military, to ensure that there would be enough interest in marksmanship for future wars? And that biathlon (which is an established Olympic discipline) first was shot with full auto service rifles?

Think about that before condemning an innocent sport which has harmed no-one since it was first incepted - and think about the approximately 150 people each year that are killed in hunting accidents all over Europe (just because the hunters were inadequately trained),

Sparks

Ben, I have several friends in the military, including many who were recently deployed to Liberia, and I want them shooting at human-shaped targets. But that's becase in their line of work, their lives may depend on their ability to draw their sidearm and put two rounds through another human being's torso without hesitation, because that other person will be trying to kill them. That's part and parcel of being a soldier. And as the US army found, if you want that end result, you have to train with human-shaped targets because otherwise, most (as in, all non-sociopathic) people will hesitate because there's an innate resistance to killing people in all of us.

Now me, I'd rather not risk conditioning myself to get past that resistance (I've seen how martial arts training affected how I thought, and it wasn't pleasant to witness - I'd rather not see the same thing happen with firearms!) - and before you say it, the man who invented IPSC shooting didn't invent it as a sport, it was invented for just the above reason - to train for shooting people. While it's been abstracted slightly from that original purpose, to say it's not there anymore is fooling yourself.

Look, here are the targets in question, judge for yourself:

PPC:


1500:


IPSC:


IDPA:

Sparks

1500 wrote:

Hagar,
seems you got something wrong in your pictures. The World Association 1500 (which is the ultimate governing body for the Hopfgarten event) has for a number of years abandoned the use of human-shaped target and even changed the name of PPC 1500 to make clear that it is all about a sporting competition. The name of the competition is Precision Pistol Competition 1500, and the target is just an oval with the score rings printed white on black.

With a large arrow where the head is at : the above target came right off the wa1500 website.

fiacha

Sparks wrote:

With a large arrow where the head is at : the above target came right off the wa1500 website.

out of interest, i just showed that target to 5 non shooting workmates. none of them associated it with a human shape.

however, i can certainly see the likeness between the two targets, and from a distance they would look very similar.
i'm not a target shooter, so maybe someone could explain the need for the big arrow pointing at the target ?

Irishglockfan

Sparks wrote:

*ha!*
I name one club and I'd find myself beneath a deluge of soliciters letters before monday lunchtime No thanks glock!
Check the papers in the UK for that time period. You'll find a few photos of the people I'm referring to.

Well ,if it is already published you cant be held for libel.You are just quoting already published material.so it is safe to quote or mention names.checked this under irish libel law.


No, I'm not. But there the situation was different. Don't forget, some of our most significant firearms acts have almost all been drafted at times where paramilitary violence was fresh in the drafter's minds - the '25 act just after the civil war, the '71 act just after a Garda was shot in Dublin and just as the Troubles were getting started. And there was a serious amount of kneejerking going on!

After personal talks with Dessie O Malley.It was the NI situation and the IRA rearming off sympathisers and robbing gun shops that brought him to sign this into law.The saoirseat eire killing of the garda in a bank robbery had nothing to do with it. As for his opinion as to when the TCO should be revoked,pretty much ALL the preconditions now exist in irish political life.


As far as legality goes, that's all that's needed.
And please don't name the company Glock, we'd end up in all sorts of bother if you did.
No intention of that.They are under investigation



But germany isn't here. There are significant differences.
Fact is we should be looking at this in a European perspective,as european law is taking over more from "local" govt.
And remember, you're looking at logic as your main argument
Laws are supposed to be based on that ,not perception or emotions.

How about the head of MAG instead? They've already sat down with the BASC, we've mentioned it in another thread here earlier. And besides, as I keep saying, you're wasting time and energy and resources by trying to convince the anti-gun lobbyists that they're in the wrong. They're paid to disagree with you. What you want to be doing is convincing the uncommitted majority.

We know that,but you keep insisting that a fanatical antigun person /group will excuse you because your sector can produce possibly a gold medal once in awhile and you are safe and harmless.When they are looking at you with an attitude of; gun owner = muderous child killing psycho!!

To give a parallel. the anti gunners are like a fanatical muslim terrorist group in iraq.Shooters are the unfortunate in the orange jumpsuit about to be a head shorter. They dont give a toss wether you are US,[PPC]German,[hunter]or British[olympic targer shooter] or irish[gun collector].You are a western infidel[gun owning psycho] and thats good enough for them.you cannot deal with people like them.


Not following exactly what you mean here - be more specific?
Learn how they maniuplate the media,use emotion,how they organise a protest,how they get political clout more above their station.How they keep their protests in the forefront of media attention.
Then be able to counter their tactics.
All in all know your enemy.




Sure, I could explain that. Till I'm blue in the face. But at the end of the day, the maxim of tabloid reporters is "Never let the facts interfere with a good story". And when you look at the distribution figures for newspapers in Ireland...






And if I honestly believe that it'll do harm to my sport and other people's sports and that there's something fundamentally objectionable to it, as you do with airsoft?
But which one has more to lose airsoft or PPC?


Never heard of that - mind you, I've next to no contact with the NRA.


Point out to me where it's written that we have a right to bear arms!
Wasnt talking about that in that context.That if a govt doesnt respect OUR outlook,then what other outlook ligfestyle will it not respect either.Hmmm a thought maybe we should register shooting as a religion and firearms as religious items???

Could well be. Remember, politicians are motivated by votes (which is actually the correct thing for them to be motivated by if they're supposed to be representing the majority of people). So if most people, for whatever reason, think that any gun painted blue with red stripes ought to be illegal, well, unless you've a damn good argument for blue guns with red stripes, I wouldn't go buying any. But the logic of the ban itself is very secondary in importance compared to how many people will vote for the ban. Follow?

But then if no one sees a threat in blue guns with red stripes and nothing happens with the said guns to bother the public at large.are they going to give a toss?? remember the public memory on issues is very short ,it has to be kept to the front of their attention for them to see a threat.

Sparks

Irishglockfan wrote:

After personal talks with Dessie O Malley.It was the NI situation and the IRA rearming off sympathisers and robbing gun shops that brought him to sign this into law.The saoirseat eire killing of the garda in a bank robbery had nothing to do with it.

Hmmm. Personal chats with some pretty heavily-involved Gardai indicated otherwise. I guess we may never have a definitive answer

As for his opinion as to when the TCO should be revoked,

Er, Glock, the TCO ran out decades ago - it's not still in force. It's just that the firearms can't be returned without licences, so they're in a legal limbo.

pretty much ALL the preconditions now exist in irish political life.

Yup.

Fact is we should be looking at this in a European perspective,as european law is taking over more from "local" govt.

Yes, but EU law defers to local law in most cases... and explicitly so in terms of firearms laws. Just look at the EU firearms pass legislation for an example.

Laws are supposed to be based on that ,not perception or emotions.

Very true. But are they? I'd rather deal with the situation as it really is, I figure that gives better results.

We know that,but you keep insisting that a fanatical antigun person /group will excuse you because your sector can produce possibly a gold medal once in awhile and you are safe and harmless.

No, I'm not. IANSA would like to see us banned just as fast as the airsofters. Thing is, IANSA are just the lobby group - they're paid to think that way. The people who'll accept us as legitimate (and thus break trail for the other shooting disciplines) are the majority of the electorate.

Learn how they maniuplate the media,use emotion,how they organise a protest,how they get political clout more above their station.How they keep their protests in the forefront of media attention.
Then be able to counter their tactics.
All in all know your enemy.

Ah. No worries there Glock, that's just standard PR practise.

But which one has more to lose airsoft or PPC?

Both have an equal amount to lose if you want to look at it like that. The question is, who's got more to lose - PPC or bullseye shooting? Airsoft or ISSF? IPSC or IMSSU?

Wasnt talking about that in that context.That if a govt doesnt respect OUR outlook,then what other outlook ligfestyle will it not respect either.

A valid point, but there's nothing to stop them doing that legally so long as your civil rights aren't impinged upon.

Hmmm a thought maybe we should register shooting as a religion and firearms as religious items???

The latter's been done in the UK for hunting with hounds. I don't think it'll succeed, though it's an interesting tactic. And doing it for firearms would immediately prompt the cult references along the lines of Koresh and Waco...

But then if no one sees a threat in blue guns with red stripes and nothing happens with the said guns to bother the public at large.are they going to give a toss??

No, precisely my point. It all comes down to how the majority of the electorate view the sport.

remember the public memory on issues is very short ,it has to be kept to the front of their attention for them to see a threat.

Yes, but politicians are rather practised at reminding them at the right time (it is their job, after all).

Irishglockfan

Er, Glock, the TCO ran out decades ago - it's not still in force. It's just that the firearms can't be returned without licences, so they're in a legal limbo.

Which just seems to be a very convient way of dealing with things around here for sucessive govts.





Yes, but EU law defers to local law in most cases... and explicitly so in terms of firearms laws. Just look at the EU firearms pass legislation for an example.

Aha!! I figured it was somthing along this line.We are in the EU for all the benefits but none of the responsibilities.and this applies to irish life in general.VRT being another example. That is going to change from Europe wether our lot in the dail like it or not!after all their bosses are now in Europe.


The latter's been done in the UK for hunting with hounds. I don't think it'll succeed, though it's an interesting tactic. And doing it for firearms would immediately prompt the cult references along the lines of Koresh and Waco...

And look at the unwelcome publicity the Clinton admin the FBI and ATF got?Trampling all over the 1st& 2nd ammendment?not to mind the 5th,4th and proably the whole document!
It culminated with Oklahoma.Ok that was well over the top,but it did cause a pretty uncomfortable situation in the US,and did increase the milita memberships.Not to mind the amount of guns bought and stashed all over the USA.It is still a very rank subject over there,not helped either by 9/11.
Again more a political US scenario.
But I dont think it would look good for the Gardai and the"elite" ERU or the "elite" army rangers to be seen to be shooting a woman holding a ten mth old baby and a seven year old kid and his dog.[ruby ridge] or driving a tank and incinerating 76 people in their church.Just because they "have guns".Or going around hassling religious shooters.We could raise a hue and cry about religious persecution,or being denied our rights to our "holy artifacts" of 1972


Yes, but politicians are rather practised at reminding them at the right time (it is their job, after all).
Hmm,no wonder it is the second oldest profession and has plenty in connection with the first.We should use them like the first.

Sparks

Irishglockfan wrote:

Which just seems to be a very convient way of dealing with things around here for sucessive govts.

Indeed, but it's vital to get the facts of the situation correct. Otherwise, you go to the Dail, ask why the TCO hasn't been ended, and the answer is a total cakewalk for the Minister - he merely points out that it has. End result, the minister has no akward question to answer, the TD who asked is made to look silly and isn't inclined to help you again, and your time and effort that went into getting it asked was wasted.

Which is why it keeps annoying me when people say the TCO is still in force, because even if it's shorthand, it's not accurate and leads to the above scenario.

Aha!! I figured it was somthing along this line.We are in the EU for all the benefits but none of the responsibilities.and this applies to irish life in general.

Well, hold on there. The EU regulations in some cases do override local law. Just not in the majority of cases, and not in relation to firearms legislation.

But I dont think it would look good for the Gardai and the"elite" ERU or the "elite" army rangers to be seen to be shooting a woman holding a ten mth old baby and a seven year old kid and his dog.[ruby ridge] or driving a tank and incinerating 76 people in their church.Just because they "have guns".

To be accurate Glock, that's not quite a fair representation of what happened at either Ruby Ridge or Waco.

Or going around hassling religious shooters.We could raise a hue and cry about religious persecution,or being denied our rights to our "holy artifacts" of 1972

I've seen some of the statements made on the situation over the years, and frankly, they weren't far off what you describe. And for some reason the people making those statements didn't seem to see how nervous that made other people, shooters and nonshooters alike. Nor did they seem to get that nervous people don't tend to vote for the thing that makes them nervous, and that those statements were (pardon the pun) shooting us all in the foot.

GreenGun

Sparks, You are obviously a dedicated shooter who wants what’s best for his sport.
The origins of the sport aside shooting PPC1500 will have a future in Ireland because it’s fun (dare I say that I enjoy shooting!).
Does shooting clays make every shotgun shooter an instinctive killer? No!
The WA1500 allows for different targets to be used. Personally I don’t think we should use the PPC target you show in your post. They don’t use them any more in most EU countries and opt for the 1500 type you depict. Using the arrow at the top as a point of hold at 50M like sub 6 in ISSF (which I also shoot)
In Ireland we could use a white target with a big black arrow pointing to the center of the scoring ring (no head!). It would certainly be easier to put in good scores and more PC.

Rather than start divisions in the already small number of pistol shooters in Ireland we should stick together. If we have pistols we are going to have people wanting to shoot both ISSF and PPC1500.
Don’t forget prior to the ban on handguns in the UK the silly woman on TV saying they shouldn’t ban her pistol because it didn’t look like a pistol!
Rather than trying to stop or dismiss other shooting disciplines maybe we could advise on safety procedures and help insure our sport stays accident and incident free.
If we don't stick together or our pistol return could be brief.
GreenGun.

Sparks

Don’t forget prior to the ban on handguns in the UK the silly woman on TV

I seem to recall that "silly woman" was a member of the GB squad and a pistol shooting champion...

And I've already pointed out why I'm opposed to PPC shooting. If you want me to change my mind on it, it should be simple to see how to do it - don't shoot at humanoid targets. Can PPC be shot with standard circular targets like ISSF or Bullseye? Or non-human silhouettes like IMSSU? (And clays don't look like humans...)

Rather than trying to stop or dismiss other shooting disciplines maybe we could advise on safety procedures

How about we advise on the PR issue since that's what'll get us closed down? (Unless of course someone has an accident, in which case it'll only be half of what closes us down).

GreenGun

Sparks wrote:

I seem to recall that "silly woman" was a member of the GB squad and a pistol shooting champion...).

Ok let me rephrase, the point she was making was silly they are not going to care what type of pistol you have they will just ban the lot.
(The lady in question is a fine shooter)

Sparks wrote:

And I've already pointed out why I'm opposed to PPC shooting. If you want me to change my mind on it, it should be simple to see how to do it - don't shoot at humanoid targets. Can PPC be shot with standard circular targets like ISSF or Bullseye? Or non-human silhouettes like IMSSU? (And clays don't look like humans...)).

That’s why I suggested the changing of the targets used in Ireland.

Sparks wrote:

How about we advise on the PR issue since that's what'll get us closed down? (Unless of course someone has an accident, in which case it'll only be half of what closes us down).

Most certainly advise on PR issue!
However the minister may close us down before the press or an accident get a chance!
We don’t just need a lack of bad press we need as much positive as possible.

Gun Shy

The club has over 200 members with a small number from Southern Ireland, the club is cross community and accepts membership applications from all parts of the Island.

It has been a good few years since I have done any serious shooting but would like to investigate further the possibility of getting involved in PP (Dont know enough yet but would like to broaden my horizons)

Any info on visitor or guest days would be appreciated, would like to attend a PP meeting for a look see.

Anyone else interested ?

les45

Drop me a private message and I will assist in any way I can.

Gun Shy

Under the ever watchful eye and tuition of Les45 I had an enjoyable afternoons introductory shooting at the NISTA range in Newry.
Have to say that the welcome I received was hard to beat and the obvious presence of the Range Officers was reassuring to this newbie lest I let the side down.

Since my visit last week I have been reviewing Practical Pistol and have to say there is a definate future in Ireland but obviously the PR would play an important part, however I dont believe the issues relating to the targets will be the undoing of the sport but more so individuals generating bad press and misconceptions.

Take for example a conversation I had with an Individual recently.

He informed me that he was going to buy a Glock from the North and I being interested in the subject hoped to have a serious discussion on the merits or demerits of the particular firearm so I proceeded to ask him why did he choose a Glock and the genuine reply I received was "Caus I want to shoot the S**T out of sandbags"

Needless to say I didn't inform him of my exploits with Les45 last weekend as I wouldnt wish to harm any credibility I've got after my first day on their range by bringing along this individual.

Thanks to everyone on the Range in Newry and Les45 for the helping hand.

Barry Aldwell

Irishglockfan wrote:

If you want irresponsible and bad press creators for us ligit shooters you only need to encourage the paintball and weekend warrior cammo brigade who go out and play at being soilders.There this lot are shooting at LIVE HUMAN targets!! And it is NO EXCUSE to say it is just a sport or whatever!It is even INMHO more dangerous than shooting paper man targets.Plus most of these people are under 25,and I would NOT trust ANY of them I have met with a live firearm! I have played paintball and in all of them I have seen idiocy been displayed by responsible[in professions and careers ]"adults" EG I was shot in the back of the head with a paintball in the safe area where firearms are supposed to be unloaded if that had been a live gun or if I hadnt turned around when I did I would have lost an eye. As paintball guns are firearms I would like to know how many of THEM are actually liscensed???why are those two "shooting sports"not vilified by the press and us ligit shooters???

I must say, I take offence to the comments about the RDF. Yes, we practice shooting at human shaped targets, because that's our job - to kill humans. It's not a sport, it's a very serious business, which must not be taken lightly. You may wish to distance yourself from the idea of firearms being used to kill, but it is one of the first things drilled into RDF recruits: This is a rifle, it can and will kill, make sure you don't shoot someone by accident. In addition, before getting anywhere near live ammo, a recruit will have had a minimum of 20 hours of instruction on the rifle, safety procedures, stripping and assembling, safety proceudres, immediate actions, did I mention safety procedures? Anyone joking around with a rifle quickly finds themselves in a lot of trouble. After the Corporals are satisfied the recruits are competent with the rifle, they are sent for their Test Of Elementary Training, where they are examined in their knowledge of safety, immediate actions, and the parts of the rifle. After they have passed these, they can finally go to the range, where they will have an officer breathing down their neck to make sure they aren't endangering anyone. The whole process can take up to 6 months from first picking up a rifle to firing a round. Tell me, how long does it take from first picking up an air rifle to firing your first round?

Sparks

Barry Aldwell wrote:

I must say, I take offence to the comments about the RDF.

Barry, I'm not certain that Glock's phrase "weekend warrior cammo brigade" referred to the RDF. I know a lot of target shooters who were trained by the RDF and the PDF and they've never been anything but safe and professional on the range. It's the odd yahoo who dresses up and plays at being a soldier that Glock was talking about, not actual soldiers.

Yes, we practice shooting at human shaped targets, because that's our job - to kill humans. It's not a sport, it's a very serious business, which must not be taken lightly.

That's one of the reasons I don't like the idea of shooting at humanoid targets. Nice to see that the professionals agree!

You may wish to distance yourself from the idea of firearms being used to kill, but it is one of the first things drilled into RDF recruits: This is a rifle, it can and will kill, make sure you don't shoot someone by accident.

That's stressed from day one with all the civilian shooters we train as well. And for good reason, as the tragic events in the past few weeks with the JROTC in the states have shown.

In addition, before getting anywhere near live ammo, a recruit will have had a minimum of 20 hours of instruction on the rifle
<snip>
Tell me, how long does it take from first picking up an air rifle to firing your first round?

In general we don't have that much time; but we compensate by not allowing our beginners as much freedom to handle the rifle as soldiers are given; we would normally get the .22 shooters into the prone position, then slot the rifle into their shoulder. We'd load the rifle, which is a single-shot affair, we're the ones who strip and clean it afterwards and so on. It's a bit more hands-on for air rifle, but there the projectile has much less kinetic energy so while it's still not a toy, it's not as likely to be fatal as a .22 rifle would be in the case of a bad accident. (And in 40 years, we've yet to have an accident in the college club).

Perhaps that gives another insight into the differences between the two "camps" - those who shoot practical pistol might find that level of restriction unfeasible because of the motion involved, for example. And we would see the idea of running with a loaded fullbore semiautomatic pistol as incredibly dangerous in the first place because we train beginners all the time (we get between 250 and 400 shooters in the college clubs every year, and over half of them will be new shooters who've never picked up a rifle before). And I think everyone can agree that that's not an activity that a complete neophyte ought to be dropped into on day one!

Irishglockfan

Barry,
Sparks said it all for me.
weekend warriors are nowadays the paintball&co brigade

Chipboard

Hagar wrote:

This is not the US where every nut with the price of a handgun thinks he is Bruce Willis.

They don't all shoot at practical targets in the US - this is a shot of me shooting an M16 (cut down to .22 unfortunately) at a very boring target in The Gun Store in Las Vegas.....



..... mind you 20 minutes later I was shooting a Beretta 92FS at a picture of Osama Bin Laden. I asked for Saddam but they insisted on Osama - its gone kinda like that over there.

civdef

this is a shot of me shooting an M16 (cut down to .22 unfortunately)

That ejected case in the air looks very much like a 223...

les45

Sparks, just thinking about all the tight leather and the restraining belts,oh oh !!!!, and that is just the Shooting jacket.!!

les45

Sparks, I would hope that as PP gains momentum in Ireland we will not see a us and them situation develop, I started shooting over 30 yrs ago and in all that time I have being very fortunate to have shot with a lot of very nice people,my only negative experience stems from my attempts to join some of the "Dublin Rifle Clubs" in the mid 80s, at no time did I receive any encouragement or help in my endevaours, and I got the distinct impression that I was wasting my time, I was very disappointed at what can only be described as snobbery. I like many others outside of the pale continued to shoot on our own or with some local friends, with the advent of the Midlands Club and also the Wilkinstown Air Rifle Club shooters could and did get involved in two very different but exciting shooting sports!, target shooting is now available to everybody. We all enjoy our sport and if things had being different I too would have a tight leather jacket, but for now it will have to be Botach 511,s and my trusty 1911 D.V.C

Sparks

les45 wrote:

Sparks, just thinking about all the tight leather and the restraining belts,oh oh !!!!, and that is just the Shooting jacket.!!

*lol*
[injoke]
Ah, but no restraining clothing is allowed for ISSF shooting
[/injoke]

les45 wrote:

Sparks, I would hope that as PP gains momentum in Ireland we will not see a us and them situation develop, I started shooting over 30 yrs ago and in all that time I have being very fortunate to have shot with a lot of very nice people,my only negative experience stems from my attempts to join some of the "Dublin Rifle Clubs" in the mid 80s, at no time did I receive any encouragement or help in my endevaours, and I got the distinct impression that I was wasting my time, I was very disappointed at what can only be described as snobbery. I like many others outside of the pale continued to shoot on our own or with some local friends, with the advent of the Midlands Club and also the Wilkinstown Air Rifle Club shooters could and did get involved in two very different but exciting shooting sports!, target shooting is now available to everybody. We all enjoy our sport and if things had being different I too would have a tight leather jacket, but for now it will have to be Botach 511,s and my trusty 1911 D.V.C

Well, the problems I have (and they are, let me restate, personal to me) are to do with the target used. (The running-about-with-a-loaded-gun bit worries me from a safety point of view, but that at least is addressable and it would worry me more than most I suspect because of my time in the college clubs where safety demands near-paranoia about unusual contingencies). Other shooting disciplines that use the same firearms, like the NRA's three-gun pistol shooting, I've got no problem with and wouldn't mind trying myself. So while you won't be seeing me taking up practical pistol, that doesn't mean that it'll have to be a "them and us" situation - after all, there are plenty of people who shoot one ISSF discipline but have no interest in others - there are few people who even can shoot all disciplines after all, even from the expense point of view alone! A peaceful coexistance is at least theoretically possible - target shooters in Ireland do form a community after all; but like every other community in human history, it's one made up of people with disparate views who don't agree on every single thing and whose best interests don't all perfectly coincide. The trick would be to find a workable comprimise. That doesn't mean, mind, that there actually is a workable comprimise in all situations - it might not be possible to find a way to introduce PP. But then again, it might be - I don't know for certain.

The problems that seem most serious to me come down to PR, safety and politics between international bodies. None of these are unmanagable, though all are serious concerns and would to my mind have to be actively worked on and not just given lip service or swept under the rug - not least because they would very adversely affect other disciplines as well as PP. And that is a big enough consequence to warrant serious care and attention - no community can sacrifice chunks of itself to introduce a single new component. And right now, PR and domestic politics are not conducive to trying to reintroduce pistols using PP as the poster boy example! We need to get past the CJB2004 first and then worry about introducing those disciplines that don't have wholly innocous PR images.

Mind you, I wouldn't want to be involved in trying to start up PP, the weight of responsibility on those who have to train new people while managing safety on the range... ouch. And that's from someone who's trained teenagers with rifles for nearly a decade, a prospect that would give most actuarial beancounters kittens

As to the bad experiences you had with various clubs and the lack of coaching, that's an actual problem and recognised by those who are trying to do something about it; and hopefully we'll see further progress on that soon. People aren't just ignoring the problem and hoping it'll go away - although to be clear, that's the coaching that I'm talking about, I've not seen any examples myself of people hoarding knowlege. I think it's more a lack of structured coaching than anything else - few people are comfortable standing up and saying "listen to me, I know better than you and I'll tell you how to do it", at least not without some sort of structure in place (a Range Officer instructing a new beginner, for example, or someone coaching a club team, or what have you). I mean, I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable walking up to Nick Flood or Rhona Barry or Derek Burnett and telling them how to shoot

les45

Firstly, I am pleased to hear that the various "Target ISSF, Clubs are now taking in members from all socio economic backrounds, my experiences were disappointing but I felt that things would change, thankfully many more people are now shooting target rifle in all its various forms. I belive that their is a future for PP in Ireland ,but under a set of rules and regulations and proper controls. The level of saftey required to shoot pp is and has to be of the highest standard, in order to shoot PP in Ireland you must have a competition licence, to get a licence the applicant has to take a PP course consisting of 14 hrs formal instruction with a 360rnd qualifier , failure rate is normally 60 to 70% of all test applicants!!!, and assuming you pass the exams each time you shoot a stage for the rest of your shooting life you are being assesed, it never stops .I accept your comment in relation to insurance and perhaps that aspect alone will dictate the future of my sport, I hope not. In the meantime I will try and help anyone who is interested in our various shooting sports , and if it transpires that PP is harming our sport I will hang up my 1911.