Comreg Gives Go Code To VoIP and the 076 Number Range

spongebob

Details on their site. Looks like an OK and balanced decision on first reading so I may be nice to them for another 2 weeks .

Instead of following my complicated pseudo geographic and non geographic sub division of the 076 range suggestion they have left 076 as pure VoIP non geos and they have Added Geographical ranges as well so there will be VoIP number ranges for Galway which will be 091 numbers.

Good stuff, must digest further. Press Release and 2 or 3 PDF docs on the Comreg site.

M

Capt'n Midnight

But Eircom are dragging their heals on certifing VoIP equipment for use in their exchanges ..

spongebob

Eircom would drag their heels at a tap dancing convention and wonder why everyone was looking funny at them .

M

Ronan|Raven

It is good news indeed. it will be interesting to see as stated above how everyones favourite telco reacts to this.

seamus

What's the deal on VoIP? Can a voip operator (say sykpe) just start up, ask Comreg for authorisation to hand out 076 numbers, and then route the calls through their own network, regardless of where they join the PSTN network - that is, if skype's closest POP to Ireland is London, can they operate freely.

Or do we all have to wait for eircom to get the finger out before VoIP is compaitble with the rest of this country's network?

/me knows very little about the nitty-gritty of VoIP

SkepticOne

seamus wrote:

What's the deal on VoIP? Can a voip operator (say sykpe) just start up, ask Comreg for authorisation to hand out 076 numbers, and then route the calls through their own network, regardless of where they join the PSTN network - that is, if skype's closest POP to Ireland is London, can they operate freely.

Or do we all have to wait for eircom to get the finger out before VoIP is compaitble with the rest of this country's network?

What the VoIP operator will have will be like a separate network (e.g. like the mobile networks) from Eircom's point of view although, of course, it runs over the internet. They then need to make an interconnect deal with Eircom to transfer calls between the two. An Irish based VoIP operator would likely do a deal with a UK one which would have an interconnect deal with BT and so on. An international VoIP operator will already have those deals. From the users point of view, international calls won't be that much more expensive than local ones.

There should be few incompatibility problems as equipment has existed for some time to connect the two types of network and the interconnect prices have been available and published for some time.

The only thing is that VoIP over the internet doesn't guarantee sufficient bandwidth. The beauty of it, though, is that if you dial another VoIP telephone, or dial out of the country, hardly any money (if any) goes to Eircom (unlike CPS etc).

Urban Weigl

Assuming it is possible to transfer existing Irish phone numbers (for example 01 for Dublin, or in my case 094), this does look like a good decision by ComReg, at first glance anyhow.

DonegalMan

Urban Weigl wrote:

Assuming it is possible to transfer existing Irish phone numbers (for example 01 for Dublin, or in my case 094), this does look like a good decision by ComReg, at first glance anyhow.

Can we reach a consensus on whether this is a "good thing"?

If so, we should praise Comreg for it just to keep the balance right.

Blaster99

VoIP, I smell the end of Eircom.

Re ComReg, how could they possibly have messed up this one, or do I lack the imagination required to predict ComReg's next move?

oscarBravo

Urban Weigl wrote:

Assuming it is possible to transfer existing Irish phone numbers (for example 01 for Dublin, or in my case 094), this does look like a good decision by ComReg, at first glance anyhow.

That portability is a prerequisite for the allocation of geographic numbers, Urban. That said, you won't be allowed to get a number from outside your MNA.

Still skimming the PDFs, but on balance this is definitely a very positive step from ComReg. Well done ComReg - let's see some more of the same.

spongebob

DonegalMan wrote:

Can we reach a consensus on whether this is a "good thing"?

If so, we should praise Comreg for it just to keep the balance right.

Yes. They have done a good job of it so far and have recognised the strands of work in progress.

The ENUM decision or "we are minded to " document will be fascinating . Thats due shortly , if not in the next fortnight . VoIP and Enum will operate as a package together.

ENUM in itself is fascinating. Rather than slag Comreg off over it I suggest that we inform ourselves of what it is and what it does , there is a rather negative view of it
Here , I posted it so that we can see how Comreg and the ENUM Forum approach the landmines inherent in it, particularly opt in and opt out aspects and who can lookup what .

M

seamus

Thanks for that SkepticOne. That's what I had thought, but couldn't get it clear in my head.

One more quick query for people - is it possible to have a virtual number on a line? That is, I ask eircom set up 01 1234567, but there's no physical line there, just when people ring that number they get automatically sent to 076 1234567.

I assume it is, but how shafted do people get for this kind of setup?

My Dad runs his own business, and he's very interested in getting some kind of broadband access. When (and it will be when, I won't rest) he gets it, I'm going to look at VoIP options, and I know that he wouldn't be crazy about changing his phone numbers. Ideally, he'd want to get VoIP, but retain his numbers.

I'm sure many thousands of others would too....

oscarBravo

Seamus, I used to have an 096 number that forwarded to my 094 number. It cost €16 a month (in 2003), and I paid for the calls forwarded - that is, I paid for an 096-to-094 call whenever someone called the 096 number.

Having said all that, it will be possible to port an existing 01 number, as I mentioned earlier in the thread.

dahamsta

Muck wrote:

ENUM in itself is fascinating. Rather than slag Comreg off over it I suggest that we inform ourselves of what it is and what it does , there is a rather negative view of it Here , I posted it so that we can see how Comreg and the ENUM Forum approach the landmines inherent in it, particularly opt in and opt out aspects and who can lookup what .

Must have a read off them. All I've picked up so far on ENUM is that: a) it's grrrreat; and b) the privacy implications are enormous and insurmountable.

adam

spongebob

It could mean that the Root Servers have to disappear from UCD and into the basement of the Data Protection Commissioner....otherwise Herr Flick will want to get his grubby paws on them .

While the current root servers are simply for the .ie domain space ENUM becomes a combination DNS and Phonebook on the Individual level rather than the company or entity level. DNS allows me to lookup boards.ie but ENUM will tell me where to find tom@boards.ie and/or boards.ie

Once IPV6 comes in with the enhanced address space I will direct all inbound calls to my kettle and hope its embedded firewall does not lock up under the strain . I hate rebooting kettles for no good reason

M

Capt'n Midnight

There is one downside to VoIP - automated voice spam

but you could put a voice message that says
"I charge X for testing infomercials - hang up now to avoid the charge *please note there is an addional charge of XX if you want the results"

andymeister

Hi, I live in Cork and just got my flatrate from Amocom.com for 35€ per month over wifi. I want to get rid of my eicom line completly, is the 076 voip number system already in place or will it take another while? Thanks for your help.

Urban Weigl

andymeister wrote:

Hi, I live in Cork and just got my flatrate from Amocom.com for 35€ per month over wifi. I want to get rid of my eicom line completly, is the 076 voip number system already in place or will it take another while? Thanks for your help.

As per my understanding, this is not in place yet. However, once it is, you will be able to keep your existing geographical number -- you will not be forced to use 076.

andymeister

It is my understanding, that currently only eircom has the right to issue geografical numbers, Esat BT does not. Will that change in the near future?

aaronc

Hi,

I apologise in advance for posting with a commercial offering but since it's the topic of the moment anyone interested in having a look at a Dublin based VoIP service may want to check out www.blueface.ie (we have a free trial).

We have spent the last 8 months setting up and trialling a VoIP service in Ireland and even though we are not ready to launch (regarding our front end) the back end is fully functioning and running with a small number of live customers.

To save any confusion and answer a couple of questions that most people have:

1. Yes we are able to allocate Dublin DID (standard PSTN) numbers BUT only if you reside in the Dublin MNA (i.e. your normal telephone would be in the 01 area code),

2. ComReg have stated in their consultation paper and in a subsequent conversation that 076 numbers will be available immediately but will probably only be functional in Q1 2005 (i.e. dialling 076 from the PSTN will not get you very far, for a few months at least),

3. Experience regarding quality of VoIP calls varies both across the different broadband providers and the time of day. Currently we can set the voice codecs to use a minimum of 13Kbps and up to 64Kbps. However, even with 13Kbps we have not found quality to be particulalrly consistent. We are currently working with some Dublin Wireless ISPs to remedy the situation.

Once again apologies for the commercial bent of the post but as mentioned above anyone interested in testing out PSTN to VoIP in Dublin is welcome to avail of the free trial no strings attached and we welcome all feedback.

Thanks,

Aaron Clauson
Blue Face

spongebob

Arron.

I will forgive you your shameless 'pimp' if you answer me this.

1. Is it economic for all VoIP carriers to have their own gateway to Eircom with SS7 ISUPP up and down conversion and termination to Eircoms Interconnect standards , EG expensive kit . ?

2. If the answer is No then is it time to discuss a sort of InEX arrangement in Dublin to give the VoIP sector a chance.

Thoughts on that.

M

seamus

aaronc wrote:

Hi,

I apologise in advance for posting with a commercial offering but since it's the topic of the moment anyone interested in having a look at a Dublin based VoIP service may want to check out www.blueface.ie (we have a free trial).

Hi Aaron,
I'll check the details of your free trial (site seems to be down - tends to happen when links get posted on boards, it's a tiny version of being slashdotted) when I can, but I've no problem with the post. Since it's a free trial, and VoIP needs more exposure both here and pretty much every else.

When VoIP goes properly live, I (and I hope IOFFL) would welcome your (non-commercial ) input in this forum, as the provision of broadband, or at least reasonable high-speed access (> 128Kbps) to every home in Ireland is as crucial to your business as it is to IOFFL.

3. Experience regarding quality of VoIP calls varies both across the different broadband providers and the time of day. Currently we can set the voice codecs to use a minimum of 13Kbps and up to 64Kbps. However, even with 13Kbps we have not found quality to be particulalrly consistent. We are currently working with some Dublin Wireless ISPs to remedy the situation.

Kilobits I assume as opposed to kilobytes? If someone has >= 64Kbps at their disposal for the duration of a call, is call quality to a PSTN line guaranteed? Sorry if that's a stupid question.

Aaron Clauson
Blue Face

Sorry, I had to giggle. Did you get that condition from dealing the Irish telecoms market? There are many others here who feel the same.

SkepticOne

seamus wrote:

Sorry, I had to giggle. Did you get that condition from dealing the Irish telecoms market?

Or just ComReg?

dahamsta

Dublin telephone number indeed. What about boggers and citizens of the Independent People's Republic of Cork?

adam

spongebob

Thats another can of worms Adam.

Lets assume that 076 calls are terminated nationally ...meaning in Dublin ...... and that 2 rates are initially available .

Local Dublin
National to / from Dublin.

These are the issues that need to be sorted now . I have every confidence that Comreg know about them and that a VoIP forum would be a good idea at this time to sort some of them out before Eircom mangle the system with unfair and predatory technical standards and pricing schemes that are designed to strangle the VoIP sector at birth .

So far we know that Comreg have used the 076 range in order that the pricing is broadly consistent with landline pricing .

Regionalised interconnects can be added later for the 02 04 05 06 07 and 09 regions based on these initial principles .

M

aaronc

Hi,

I have provided some answers where I am able.

1. No SS7 interconnect or direct interface to Eircom exchanges in needed to access DIDs or the PSTN. Not that I want to encourage competition but all you need is an E1 PRI line. Obviously the whole philosophy behind VoIP is in most cases to do without the expenisve PSTN interconnect,

2. The Blue Face web site is up. There seems to be a DNS issue floating around.

3. I was referring to bits when talking about VoIP bandwidth requirements. If you can get a consistent 13kbps stream you CAN have a GOOD conversation. I have had good VoIP calls to people on Dial Up connections in Australia. I have had bad calls to people on broadband connections in Ireland (note: I am not saying Dial Up in Australia is better then broadband in Ireland; the bandwidth depends on a number of factors the most important being the contention ratio of the ISPs internet links). If you have a 64Kbps stream your call quality will usually exceed that of a PSTN call. This is because even though a PSTN call is also 64Kbps the GOOD 64Kbps voice codecs use compression techniques that have the effect of allowing a higher quality (larger frequency range) stream to be produced,

4. While the name Blue Face did come from "Speak till you are Blue in the Face" it was as a reference to cheaper/free calls allowing people to talk more. I do like the alternative proposed, however not having any lawyers currently on staff we probably won't be pushing that angle it in a hurry (although I must say to date all dealings with ComReg regarding VoIP have been very positive and helpful!),

5. According to ComReg's consultation paper 076 number call rates will be capped at the national rate. So in that respect it does not greatly favour Dublin over the rest of the country. As far as Blue Face only offering Dublin numbers it's because we are a small startup and initially can't locate infrastructure in all regions. Interestingly quite a few other countries don't have the same restrictions on geographic numbers that Ireland has so if you are in Cork you could get a UK, US, Australian etc. number but not a Dublin one. If there is any interest we can provide a Dublin number with extensions for Cork and elsewhere. This would involve dialling a Dublin number and then dialling a further extension.

Regards,
Aaron Clauson

spongebob

aaronc wrote:

1. No SS7 interconnect or direct interface to Eircom exchanges in needed to access DIDs or the PSTN. Not that I want to encourage competition but all you need is an E1 PRI line. Obviously the whole philosophy behind VoIP is in most cases to do without the expenisve PSTN interconnect,

Aaron. Thaks for coming back so soon.

The problem with the DDI into E1 and Then run a Codec off a Dialogic approach is that you will not get any termination rate on an E1 or SS7 signalling . Therefore there is no point in being a carrier. The problem,m if you are a carrier is that Eirocm will expect you to take SS7 across a fibre which is overkill .

Its all fine for ingress but for egress ??!?

Anyway. It means I still think that it is worth discussing at this stage

BTW , forgot to mention that Ofcom in the UK have gone a bit further with their VoIP over BB (as they call it) consultation which will allocate UK 056 numbers for the same purpose as 076 here. Ofcom are concerned about resilience and emergency service access and have an annex on PATS ...as they call it. Comreg do not appear to be pushing this level of resilience on the 076 operators .....a good thing I think as we all have mobiles !

It is written very clearly and is worth the gander Here . They appear to be about 4 months ahead of Comreg .


M

aaronc

Muck wrote:

Aaron. Thaks for coming back so soon.

The problem with the DDI into E1 and Then run a Codec off a Dialogic approach is that you will not get any termination rate on an E1 or SS7 signalling . Therefore there is no point in being a carrier. The problem,m if you are a carrier is that Eirocm will expect you to take SS7 across a fibre which is overkill .

Its all fine for ingress but for egress ??!?

Anyway. It means I still think that it is worth discussing at this stage

BTW , forgot to mention that Ofcom in the UK have gone a bit further with their VoIP over BB (as they call it) consultation which will allocate UK 056 numbers for the same purpose as 076 here. Ofcom are concerned about resilience and emergency service access and have an annex on PATS ...as they call it. Comreg do not appear to be pushing this level of resilience on the 076 operators .....a good thing I think as we all have mobiles !

It is written very clearly and is worth the gander Here . They appear to be about 4 months ahead of Comreg .

M

You can use an E1 for PSTN origination and termination no problem (I'm doing it) and we have no plans at the moment to go near SS7 or exchanges. If you are interested in the architecture of our system maybe better to send me an email off the list, it might be a bit OTT but I have no problems discussing it.

Interestingly for us at the moment it is cheaper to use international VoIP->PSTN gateways to terminate calls onto the Irish network then it is to use our E1 but this is a function of minute volume.

Emergency service calls are obviously different in a VoIP environment and mobiles are the easiest solution. Ideally VoIP handsets will appear that have battery backup, GPS and connectivity to mobile networks in order to attempt to provide the same reliability as the PSTN. Alternatively ComReg could mandate that emergency calls on the PSTN have to be routed regardless of whether the line is active or not (active meaning being charged line rental). The latter option is the easiest especially since a lot of VoIP devices already come with PSTN failover. I'm not expecting to see either in a hurry so as you say mobiles it is.

In Ireland you don't need to be a PATS to be a VoIP service provider being an ECS is sufficient!

Regards,
Aaron

spongebob

The thread is not the place to discuss the tech ...agreed.

Those international gateways will minge the Caller ID unless something 'is done' from my experience

M

Blaster99

Can I suggest something? If you want to seem like a legitimate Irish VoIP provider, don't host your site in Los Angeles or wherever it is. Because people like me check out VoIP by doing pings and traceroute's to the web site and had it not been for your information about how you connect to Eircom, I would have dismissed your service.

Urban Weigl

It probably makes a lot of sense to outsource web hosting, at least while in the beta testing stage. I do not have a problem with that personally.