Want to vote to get rid of VRT??

pedro ferio-vti

Posting this here in the hopes that it will be made a Sticky so it will attract more attention, need as many people as possible to vote on this.

***************************************************************
The society of the Irish Motor Industry (SIMI) is surveying motorists on the VRT taxation system, in line with a request from the European Commissioner for the internal market.

All motorists are urged to take part and register their disapproval of the current VRT system.

Log on here to have your say.

http://www.simi.ie/tax_intro.asp

Cheers

Pete

mike65

We've got 7, SEVEN! stickies so I'm slightly reluctant to give this same treatment. Maybe what the mods can do is give this a bump every week...and I'll put it in The Knowledge too.

Mike.

pedro ferio-vti

In fairness, i'd rather see people vote to get rid of VRT rather than post a picture of their favourite car or go through a step by step process on how to buy a car which isn't brain surgery IMO

StRiKeR

i totally hating the vrt system, they rob u big time, in the uk, all cars have fixed vrt, no matter what it worth

unkel

Just voted against VRT

You never know what it will achieve, but tbh the poll was not very well put together (strong bias against VRT)

Seth Brundle

What I find odd is the SIMIs protests against VRT. They were involved in its creation! Furthermore, it suits them as having VRT will tend to discourage importing a car resulting in a more stable domestic market.
I emailed the SIMI a number of years ago when they did something similar. I asked them if they could get their members to mention the pre and post tax price of the car on the forecourt. I believe that if more people knew that they were paying a fortune in a wrongful tax then there would eventually be a change. They never replied.

Sleipnir

You can't just get rid of it completely (unfortunately).
Will we have bake sales to replace the revenue VRT generates?

I would be in favour of drastically reducing it though.

impr0v

Sleipnir wrote:

You can't just get rid of it completely (unfortunately).
Will we have bake sales to replace the revenue VRT generates?

I haven't read the petition but I believe the argument that SIMI usually roll out is that the increase in car sales once VRT is abolished will compensate the government through VAT receipts and other taxes, so that the net effect of the abolition on the exchequer is close to zero. I'd imagine there is some skepticism within the Department of Finance about this.

Personally, VRT being abolished wouldn't be good for me. I would instantly lose just under 20% off the resale or trade in value of my car. Sure, the one I go to buy will be cheaper, but only proportionally so. Unless I go for a much higher value car the net effect on me is close to zero, like the department of finance. However should I decide to leave the country or move into a city centre where I might not need a car, and sell the car without buying a replacement, then I lose nearly 20% of the car value.

The only real winners out of the abolition are the dealers, who seem to be doing ok at the moment, those without any car at the moment, and to a certain extent those driving cars with already very low resale values and who are looking to trade up.

Mayshine

The only real winners out of the abolition are the dealers, who seem to be doing ok at the moment, those without any car at the moment, and to a certain extent those driving cars with already very low resale values and who are looking to trade up

Are you insane

What about first time car buyers?
People trading up?
People importing cars?
Poverty spec might start to disappear?
Smaller car loans = less interest to repay
Cheaper car = people can afford better safetly features = less human damage from accidents

Man, the list goes on an on

unkel

Sleipnir wrote:

You can't just get rid of it completely (unfortunately).

You can, but as you say, the money will have to come from other places. One is an increase in duty on a liter of fuel of say €0.25 (Would bring us in line with the more expensive countries in Europe)

impr0v wrote:

SIMI usually roll out is that the increase in car sales once VRT is abolished will compensate the government through VAT receipts and other taxes

There's another

I'm sure Brian Cowen can come up with a few more tricks, cause remember he has to kill motor tax at the same time

unkel

Mayshine wrote:

Man, the list goes on an on

Agreed. I'd feel sorry for someone who'd buy a new car just before VRT was to be abolished and looses out. The bigger picture is more important though!

impr0v

Mayshine wrote:

Are you insane

No. Are you capable of reading something before replying to it?

Mayshine wrote:

What about first time car buyers?
People trading up?

Re-read the piece you quoted:

Impr0v wrote:

...those without any car at the moment, and to a certain extent those driving cars with already very low resale values and who are looking to trade up

I also mentioned in the main body of my post that I would benefit if I traded up significantly.

Mayshine wrote:

People importing cars?

The above two provisos still apply in the majority of cases. An exception would be where someone is importing a second car to carry out some work on, and have as a leisure vehicle.

Mayshine wrote:

Poverty spec might start to disappear?

It probably will, but you'll pay more for the base level specification car, which will be better equipped than it is now. You'll more than likely pay the same for a golf with A/C and 15" alloys as standard (I don't know the current base level spec of a golf) as you would now, minus the VRT. So again, this dosen't change the two provisios. The only reasons cars are offered with such low spec in this market is because with the VRT and the extra equipment the models move out of their target market bracket. Once the VRT is removed, they'll be back down into that bracket (for the first time buyer, theoretically someone already with one of these cars will move down a bracket) and the extra price for the equipment can be added on.

Mayshine wrote:

Smaller car loans = less interest to repay
Cheaper car = people can afford better safetly features = less human damage from accidents

This doesn't mean anything. You still need money to buy a car with. If you have a car at the moment, the removal of VRT wipes about 20% of the value of that car off your repurchasing power. Unless you are trading up significantly, you'll still need the same sized loan. Yes, if you have no car at the moment and are going to buy one, you will need a smaller car loan, but I stated that someone without a car will benefit.

Mayshine wrote:

Man, the list goes on an on

You've added little or nothing.

mike65

Thread stuck. I voted for gradual phasing out and an increase in duty for *cough* environmental reasons.

Mike.

ubu

obvisiously i would like to see VRT being abolished completly but i think this is impractical, or if it were to happen it would have to be done in a way that is transparent and not conducive to the dealers making more money from it, as when anything like thins happens the consumer ends loosing out and the retailer making a bigger profit.
Remember when VAT went from 21% to 20% ?? and the back up to 21% after a few weeks because the savings werent being passed onto the consumer, same with the euro changeover, consumer ends up getting shafted every time

Corben Dallas

Sleipnir wrote:

You can't just get rid of it completely (unfortunately).
Will we have bake sales to replace the revenue VRT generates?

I would be in favour of drastically reducing it though.

Yes they can and they will.
Why should the Irish Motorist make up a shortfall from VRT when it goes. Its an illegal tax (IMO) that no other EU citizen has to pay.

It has been a soft Revenue generator for the Govn which means that the EU 'One price for all goods/services across Europe'* will never Benefit the Irish Motorist because any saving that u WILL make from buying a car overseas is lost after the Govn takes its VRT cut.

Its like if a mugger takes your money, the Guards catch him etc If he comes back the next day your not going to give him money on the basis that he got money from u yesterday. Why would anyone want to continue paying an illegal Anti EU competition tax under another name????????.

*Yes I know that there will be regional differences/cost of living etc between EU Countries but one of the reasons that the Euro was set up was that the Increased transparency of a uniform Europe currency would lead to increased competition.

dcGT

This has already been touched on by improv above...I remember watching the news a while back, around the time the EU was regulating car prices across Europe. This meant bad news for Ireland as car manufacturers already heavily subsidised car prices in Ireland because of VRT, thus, having the same car prices across Europe would mean removing these subsidies for Ireland resulting in even more expensive cars. My question is, if VRT was removed/dramatically reduced, would the manufacturers not simply remove this subsidy, resulting in car prices similar to the ones we have now?

DC.

KinchTheBlade

It seems (annoyingly) that submit is now generating a 500 error so I haven't been able to vent my VRT spleen

Clearly reduction/removal of vrt will devalue all cars in current ownership because an artificial barriers to competition/consumer choice (blah blah everyone knows this)

That's life and I for one am prepared to suck it up because as soon as its gone I'm straight to the UK for a "tasty motor" where hopefully the loss in value of my car here will be less than or equal to the amount I would have lost on VRT.

It seems to me that the ultimate effect on the Irish car market is that 2nd hand cars here will be cheaper and the worst cars will be eliminated from the sales chain and somebody will get rich exporting them to somewhere like Estonia (do any of the new European states drive on the left?)

Kinch

Seth Brundle

dcGT wrote:

This has already been touched on by improv above...I remember watching the news a while back, around the time the EU was regulating car prices across Europe. This meant bad news for Ireland as car manufacturers already heavily subsidised car prices in Ireland because of VRT, thus, having the same car prices across Europe would mean removing these subsidies for Ireland resulting in even more expensive cars. My question is, if VRT was removed/dramatically reduced, would the manufacturers not simply remove this subsidy, resulting in car prices similar to the ones we have now?

DC.

Many manufacturers have already gotten rid of subsidies and some (BMW for example) are standardising pre-tax prices right across the EU. Therefore, prices for cars will increase if they all follow this lead (which is very likely!)

dcGT

kbannon wrote:

Many manufacturers have already gotten rid of subsidies and some (BMW for example) are standardising pre-tax prices right across the EU. Therefore, prices for cars will increase if they all follow this lead (which is very likely!)

What kind of increase has this resulted in?

DC.

Tommy Vercetti

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the SIMI have their greedy eyes on the SSIAs maturing, the reduction/abolition of VRT would be perfectly timed for this - tens of thousands of people "getting" a lump sum of up to €20k.

Why haven't they been making serious moves against VRT for years?
If they are concerned about us drivers getting ripped off, why don't they throw their considerable weight behind MIJAG or similar campaign?

Motorists in this country are being bled dry, and it is getting far, far worse. SIMI can go to hell with their selfish campaign. I don't believe any concerned motorist should have any part in their petition against VRT. If the taxation regime is to be reformed, then I believe that the annual road tax should be first to go, with the polluter pays principle; put the tax on fuel (with no exceptions/rebates etc). Sending the used car market into turmoil isn't a good idea imo.

Tommy Vercetti

They had some geezer on the Last Word this evening, they seem to have watered down their proposals somewhat, his main point is that VRT is charged on things like ABS, traction control, extra airbags - thus making extra safety features more expensive and possibly out of the reach of some motorists. Too bad Matt Cooper obviously hadn't done his homework on the car industry here, perhaps he could have pointed out that ABS is now compulsory and that many extras here in Ireland are often standard across the world. I hate these hypocrites. I also hate double (more like quadruple) taxation. I can't win

TommyK

unkel wrote:

. . .cause remember he has to kill motor tax at the same time

What do you mean?

Afaik, there's no link between VRT and motor tax.

Or am I missing something (as the smiley indicates I might be!)

Toommy.

Victor

Tommy Vercetti wrote:

his main point is that VRT is charged on things like ABS, traction control, extra airbags - thus making extra safety features more expensive and possibly out of the reach of some motorists.

I'm sure this geezer will try to sell you a €1 car and a €14,998 ABS system. :rolleyes:

unkel

TommyK wrote:

What do you mean?

Afaik, there's no link between VRT and motor tax.

Or am I missing something (as the smiley indicates I might be!)

Toommy.

Just my opinion Toommy that motor tax is very unfair and should be abolished. Imagine a real car enthousiast, owning and driving 7 performance cars for a few thousand miles per year between them all. Currently he has to pay €10 GRAND motor tax annually for that :eek: He hardly uses the roads

A company in the business park I work are into stretch limousines. They obviously run them as PSV's. They might run those huge yokes on the roads 24/7/365, still the tax discs state the annual tax of €72, makes me sick :mad:

The polluter pays - motor tax should be part of the fuel duty imho...

And this is coming from me, driving a V8 petrol car

ambro25

France - Road Tax abolished, no VRT, cheapest insurance I know about
UK - Single-Rate Road Tax (going up yearly foir the last 3 years), no VRT, most expensive insurance I knew about until I moved here ( :eek: )

In both instances, petrol prices and maintenance costs comparable (but not diesel, much cheaper in France - which is why everybody's on it there).

Here - well, I don't need to, lads & ladettes, do I?

It's surprising -considering Ireland has had the presidency of Europe for a while- how few of the anti-competitive EU rules & regs make it over here in relation to cars, finance, insurance, etc... They make ooohs and aaahs abouth the so-called 'aristocratic' ruling class getting their way in the UK, but I'm not seeing much difference here, as a matter of fact Cartel-type concerting practices appear much, much worse.

Did you know, just as a simple example, that it's illegal in France, Germany and the Benelux, for banks to charge for € transfer operations between countries? That buying a car in Luxembourg (new or second-hand) and re-registering it for use in France is free save for a tiny-incy-weeny fee to cover admin (paperwork) costs (and I'm talking a few tens of € here)? And the list goes on and on...

Victor

ambro25 wrote:

France - Road Tax abolished, no VRT, cheapest insurance I know about

But an awful lot of toll roads.

UK - Single-Rate Road Tax (going up yearly foir the last 3 years), no VRT, most expensive insurance I knew about until I moved here ( :eek: ) In both instances, petrol prices and maintenance costs comparable (but not diesel, much cheaper in France - which is why everybody's on it there).

Fuel prices are substantially higher in the UK than here.

ambro25 wrote:

Did you know, just as a simple example, that it's illegal in France, Germany and the Benelux, for banks to charge for € transfer operations between countries?

Here, I think the maximum is something like €0.50.

ambro25 wrote:

That buying a car in Luxembourg (new or second-hand) and re-registering it for use in France is free save for a tiny-incy-weeny fee to cover admin (paperwork) costs (and I'm talking a few tens of € here)?

So? Income tax is higher there. Swings. roundabouts. High horses.

dcGT

ambro25 wrote:

Did you know, just as a simple example, that it's illegal in France, Germany and the Benelux, for banks to charge for € transfer operations between countries?

True. When I wanted to transfer money from my account in Ireland to an account in Germany, AIB kindly took €20 off me for the privilege. I think It's the same with most banks over here. Actually, IIRC, if the person in Germany wanted to transfer money from their account to mine, they would incur a charge also, but it was AIB that was issuing this charge (AIB charge for sending or receiving money). The German bank issued no charges for either transaction. Rediculous.

DC.

ambro25

Right... I was nice and sedate and polite and everything - BUT :mad:

[rant]

French Toll Roads - on motorways only, not all of them, not along the whole length - and most important 'Nationales' are 4-lane anyway, so very much like UK M1 vs A1. Don't want to pay the tolls? Take the Nationale, you'll get there just as fast. Can't quite say the same around these here parts... For reminder, French car tax AND tollroads have coexisted for 15-20+ years. Now there's just no more car tax.

UK Petrol Price - define substantial? I count 10% max (€1.12 - UK last week, Yorks vs €1.03 - IE, Rathfarnham). May be substantial to some, not to me - 'substantial' I believe depends here on your mileage driven (and hence your mpg - I fill up less than once a week).

I'll be sure to notify Bank of Ireland of the maximum €0.50 transfer charge (I don't think anybody told them yet ) - so far, it's been €5 and upwards for each int'l € transfer (by bank 2 bank or by cheque), in addition to the €0.50 charge for every single operation whatever the type. Nice to put your money there and have to pay to use it/get it back!

Income Tax higher here than France? Don't get me started - why do you think I left the place for good in '94? This is just like these TV programs following people as they up sticks and move to France or Italy to 'start an idyllic new life' - Why do you think such programs are about the move and do not delve into such 'boring' (read: viewing ratings-destroying) subjects as taxation, red tape and the like...? Or check how it's going after a year or two? Lot more people coming back than staying there happy.
Don't forget there's no PAYE in France: you get your gross minus the NHS contribution equivalent and send a big fat cheque to the French Inland Revenue once or twice a year, for a fair few €'000s - I hope you're good at saving. By the time you've cumulated direct and indirect taxation, you're looking at 54% to 57% off your take-home. Still higher in Ireland?
And if you have the bad luck of having any kind of income (let's say €100 a year from bank interests) in France and live overseas (anywhere, incl. EU), you're taxed at a minimum of 25% on the first cent, no minimum taxable threshold applicable - I hope you haven't forgotten to include that in your amortizing projection for that little cottage in Provence you're going to buy and rent out.

Don't get me wrong - I'm all for a fair and just taxation system applicable to every road user (I mean, the french road tax was never used for road or infrastructure investments - it was always used to fund state pensions).

Road Tax? So long as it goes on to pay for nice new hole- and bump-less roads, and so long as it's the same for everyone (and if it's going to be proportional to something, then it should be proportional to the weight of the vehicle, not it's engine size, as the heavier the more wear on the surface) - fine and good. Given the number of cars in Ireland and the infrstructure requirements, it shouldn't amount to that much.

Petrol Tax? I could go on a debate here, but there's no point since every EU government does it - so if everyone else is doing it, why couldn't the Irish governement? Again, fine and good.

But VRT smacks of government-sanctioned (and -implemented) extortion writ large. I have never heard of a comparable tax in any of the EU countries I have lived in. I see it as a protectionist measure devised by local car dealers who have lobbied friends in high places to ensure Irish citizens may not source cars cheaper elsewhere in the EU and an anti-competitive practice in total breach of Article 81 EUT as well as in breach of the free movement of goods principle within the Internal Market once customs duties have been acquitted at the point of entry in the EU, which overcomes national statutes (unless Ireland is the point of entry, of course, such as for Jap imports shipped direct).

For this, I have indeed voted for the total abolition of VRT.

And if Irish citizens had an ounce of something about themselves and were so fed up with Racket Ireland as they supposdly are, they could indeed start with doing something insteda of just moaning (e.g. signing against VRT) and who knows what other such barriers to free EU competition may fall shortly thereafter (cheaper insurance premiums from overseas, anyone?).

[/rant]

Victor

ambro25 wrote:

French Toll Roads - on motorways only, not all of them, not along the whole length

You'd be surprised.

ambro25 wrote:

and most important 'Nationales' are 4-lane anyway

Some are, most don't have hard shoulders.

ambro25 wrote:

Don't want to pay the tolls? Take the Nationale, you'll get there just as fast.

Not quite, toll roads reduce Paris - Bordeaux by more than an hour.

UK Petrol Price - define substantial? I count 10% max (€1.12 - UK last week, Yorks vs €1.03 - IE, Rathfarnham).

www.aaireland.ie

Unleaded Petrol Prices - *average retail price per litre

Country	June	October
Ireland	€1.004	€0.991
France	€1.09
GB	€1.22

I'll be sure to notify Bank of Ireland of the maximum €0.50 transfer charge (I don't think anybody told them yet ) - so far, it's been €5 and upwards for each int'l € transfer (by bank 2 bank or by cheque), in addition to the €0.50 charge for every single operation whatever the type. Nice to put your money there and have to pay to use it/get it back!

The €5 is probably for the express service.

Road Tax? So long as it goes on to pay for nice new hole- and bump-less roads, and so long as it's the same for everyone (and if it's going to be proportional to something, then it should be proportional to the weight of the vehicle,

What value for weight do you use for a goods vehicle?

I have never heard of a comparable tax in any of the EU countries I have lived in.

Netherlands? Denmark?

ambro25

Victor wrote:

You'd be surprised.

No I wouldn't - I am French and have lived there long enough to know.

Victor wrote:

Some are, most don't have hard shoulders.

You need hard shoulders to drive?

Victor wrote:

Not quite, toll roads reduce Paris - Bordeaux by more than an hour.

But increase Nancy-Luxembourg (50 miles) by 30 mins.

Victor wrote:

Ireland €1.004/€0.991 - GB€1.22

I was basing my comparison on facts, not web-sourced, averaged figures. I was in UK South Yorks week-end before last. Sure, if you factor in London then your average goes way up - but London ain't the center of Europe, certainly not representative of the UK price-wise (even though prices there skew any national average you care to mention).

Victor wrote:

The €5 is probably for the express service.

No, it ain't. I have no need of an express service, and certainly would wait a couple of weeks if need be to ensure the transaction is costless - but those esteemed bankers can't be asked to make MY money (and yours, BTW) work for them, it's much easier and totally risk-free just levy (EU-banned) charges.

Victor wrote:

Netherlands? Denmark?

Voted for phasing out already in Netherlands + not as arsey about foreign plates (speaking from experience here) as some other small country I know, since they are both following EU case law stating that you may retain foreign plates if the vehicules returns to its country of origin at least once in any period of 12 consecutive months. The case law precedent arose precisely in case of a length of temporary residence exceeding the national statute duration (which is 1 day in Ireland, and that really is just taking the p***), in support of the principle of free movement of individuals and their belongings throughout the EU.
I can see why Ireland would choose not to uphold (or to ignore, more to the point), though, as business for car dealers and insurers and VRT money for the tax people would totally cease overnight. Ah, well, Europe... nice on paper and all that, but it's nice to pick and choose when you're a governement

And no (BTW and before you point it out), this isn't a provision to tax-dodge, since you still have to get your car MOT'd (or NCH'd in Ireland or Controle Technique'd in France), Taxed and insured, acquitting at least some form of car/road/insurance tax in the EU and ensuring that the car remains roadworthy in respect of other road users.

Victor

ambro25 wrote:

I was basing my comparison on facts, not web-sourced, averaged figures. I was in UK South Yorks week-end before last. Sure, if you factor in London then your average goes way up - but London ain't the center of Europe, certainly not representative of the UK price-wise (even though prices there skew any national average you care to mention).

I'm basing it on average figures published by a large organisation, not what some guy on the internet said.

Spain and Portugal also impose such charges.