Want to vote to get rid of VRT??

impr0v

Boggle wrote:

So what your saying is that the purchase of a new car is for society's elite only and that, as they can afford it, they should pay a tax lump sum everytime they buy a car - just for the good of society...

No, they're actually your words. Paying taxes is not an opt-in activity in case you haven't noticed, and charging those who can afford it more is a fundamental part of any tax regime.

Boggle wrote:

I thought that the base price of cars all across the EU had to be the same...?

Are retail prices the same across the EU countries with no VRT?

Boggle wrote:

If these taxes go into the general exchequer and are not specifically set aside for roads then yes they should be in the form of extra taxes... Maybe not nice to hear but that's how it should be. (Of course the could just cut expenditure/ politicians wages etc...)

Sure, as should tax on alcohol, cigarettes, petrol, credit cards, plastic bags, etc. etc. In other words the government should centralise a citizens total tax contribution into one, income related payment. After the coup takes place, I'm pretty sure the new party in power will revert to the old existing arrangement.

If the average worker in this country saw the real percentage of their income which evenually ends up back in the government's pocket they would think seriously about continuing to work.

Boggle wrote:

Actually it's quite a big deal if you happen to want a new car.

If you can't afford the price of the car, including any and all relevant taxes then you don't buy it, it's simple system. In your VRT-less world you would not be able to afford the car if you can't now, because your real income would be less due to the raised tax, and the other auxilliary taxes (on petrol motor tax, and tolls, among others) would have increased also, so that if you did manage to buy it, you'd have difficulty running it.

ambro25

Fair arguments either side so far (I'm still siding on no-VRT, all the same).

Only problem I see is that both sides of the arguments are based on a lot of hypothetical "ifs" (particularly on the side 'defending' VRT): "if VRT was abolished", then... petrol/insurance/road tax/PAYE/fags/pint/etc, etc. would go up = cheaper to buy but just as expensive to own a car (in regard of this particular thread), everybody loses.

IMO, not so dramatically, though. If VRT was abolished, of course you'd get a "communicating vases" effect (the money has to come from somewhere, I've yet to see a governement of any country operating with a smaller budget year-on-year). However, bear in mind that this would be mitigated -for the new/nearly new car acquirer- by the possibility of shopping around Europe for the best deals on his/her wheels, such that this VRT-less importation would force the local market to -gradually- toe the line price-wise, as is already happening on Continental Europe - especially since introducing the Euro. Car dealers end up making more of the profit on their selling skills and customer care (which they're going to have to seriously overhaul), much less on skimming or buttering the new + VRT price.

The picture worth looking at is the overall one: more PAYE, more expensive petrol etc. but cheaper car prices - it may just balance out. No real gain, true, unless you find that rare pearl in the UK or Belgium in which case your 'net' take-home keep-home is increased compared to the current situation.

...but then again, you're probably going to object the reverse: if the rare pearl can be found now, paying VRT when importing is just trading horses for courses...

So I'd propose that -until the macro-economical impact upon the average culchie of suppressing VRT can be reasonably & accurately assessed (by Victor? ) as beneficial or otherwise- we agree to disagree?

Boggle

No, they're actually your words. Paying taxes is not an opt-in activity in case you haven't noticed, and charging those who can afford it more is a fundamental part of any tax regime.

Those who can afford it? Maybe. Where does that apply to someone buying a car? Say I need a safe reliable car so that I can commute to work - does this mean I can afford it? Not necessarily. The extra VRT probably takes that much safer/comfortable car outside of my bracket just because people like you would rather see the likes of me paying lump sum taxes rather than pay their fair share of taxes.

re retail prices the same across the EU countries with no VRT?

Base price same - individual countries taxes are different I think. (Still diff sale price but less so) Someone else would be better able to clarify this than me.

Sure, as should tax on alcohol, cigarettes, petrol, credit cards, plastic bags

You dont have to register cigarettes and you cant buy them second hand. Besides these are effective luxuries. Remove cars from society and the economy would effectively collapse as people cant get to work, go shopping, etc.

If you can't afford the price of the car, including any and all relevant taxes then you don't buy it, it's simple system. In your VRT-less world you would not be able to afford the car if you can't now, because your real income would be less due to the raised tax,

Bollox. If that lumpsum that is paid out by the few purchasers of new cars were spread out among all PAYE earners then it would be barely evemn noticeable. And if you need a car then you have no choice but to get a car. The only question that remains is how safe is said car?

impr0v

Boggle wrote:

Those who can afford it? Maybe. Where does that apply to someone buying a car? Say I need a safe reliable car so that I can commute to work - does this mean I can afford it? Not necessarily. The extra VRT probably takes that much safer/comfortable car outside of my bracket just because people like you would rather see the likes of me paying lump sum taxes rather than pay their fair share of taxes.

People like me?? I don't particularly care what's in or out of your bracket, whether you pay taxes or not, or whether you are safe and comfortable or not. I'm not even arguing for VRT, I'm simply telling you why VRT is the way it is, and why it's not going to change, in the face of your decreasing ability to listen to logic or see the big picture.

Boggle wrote:

Base price same - individual countries taxes are different I think.

Oh those poor europeans pay a tax lump sum everytime they buy a car - just for the good of society..

Boggle wrote:

Someone else would be better able to clarify this than me.

Don't bring it up then.

Boggle wrote:

You dont have to register cigarettes and you cant buy them second hand. Besides these are effective luxuries. Remove cars from society and the economy would effectively collapse as people cant get to work, go shopping, etc.

You still pay a lump sum of tax when you buy them, and you conveniently ignored the other items. New cars ARE a luxury, and how does VRT removes car from society?

Boggle wrote:

Bollox. If that lumpsum that is paid out by the few purchasers of new cars were spread out among all PAYE earners then it would be barely evemn noticeable. And if you need a car then you have no choice but to get a car. The only question that remains is how safe is said car?

Since I have clearly failed to explain the situation to you, and you are obviously unhappy with the status quo, the following options remain open to you. Unlike bleating on about it here, these will actually have an effect upon the situation. You can:

-Vote for a different party at the next election and hope they change it.
-Run for Election on an anti-VRT ticket yourself and hope your charisma shines through as it does here, then try and exert your influence in the dail.
-Bring an 'exemption from VRT because I don't agree with it' form along when you're buying your comfortable AND safe new car.
-Move to a different country.
-Buy a reasonably priced used car, of which there are thousands available right now, and take a much lower hit on VRT than the original buyer.
-Shut up and deal with it as the rest of us do.

Victor

ambro25 wrote:

So I'd propose that -until the macro-economical impact upon the average culchie of suppressing VRT can be reasonably & accurately assessed (by Victor? ) as beneficial or otherwise- we agree to disagree?

VRT improves balance of payments by discouraging car imports (no domestic car industry)

VRT is difficult to avoid for most people and acts as an anti-tax avoidance measure.

Replacing VRT with extra duty on fuel could be revenue neutral for individuals, but would hurt the exchequer in grey-market exports of fuel to the UK (worth something like €200m+ per year).

VRT discourages car usage, making other types of transport more attractive. This has anti-congestion, health, etc. benefits.