32-county Irish state - when?

Mighty_Mouse

This thing goes round and round!! We'll just have to wait and see.

3 years ago people were repeatedly told nobody will vote for Sinn Fein. They will never take more than 2 seats in the dail etc etc.

We were told there would never be an end to armed struggle, unionists would never cooperate with republicans etc..

Sinn Fein is now in a situation whereby they have a real good chance of making it into government in the south by the next election as part of a Fianna Fail led government!!!

We are also in the situation where the complete disbandment of the IRA will probably happen in the coming months and where republicans will have the opportunity to have serious input into policing in the north.

I just wonder how many more "nevers" people are going to listen to?

omnicorp

I don't want a 32-county Ireland, too expensive and the people of Northern Ireland wouldn't like it.

Mighty_Mouse

I don't want a 32-county Ireland, too expensive and the people of Northern Ireland wouldn't like it.

expensive --> a peacful northern Ireland would act as a fully fuctional economy. With a superb infrastructure, airport, universities, history of manufacturing etc. Not only do I think it would pay for itself but IMO making as much use of the limited resources on this island as possible makes economic sense.

people of Northern Ireland wouldn't like it --> and hence the principal of consent. A united Ireland will happen through peaceful means with unionist culture being secured and promoted in Irish society.IMO unionists are becoming more and more disenfranchised by a british governement who clearly wants rid of them. So perfect environment for unity!

Rock Climber

Mighty_Mouse wrote:

IMO unionists are becoming more and more disenfranchised by a british governement who clearly wants rid of them. So perfect environment for unity!

I see
How many unionists agree with you?

Mighty_Mouse

We've done this before Rockclimber so it'll be a case of wait and see? How do you fancy SF chances of being in a power-sharing governement? I would say increasing by the day.

What I'm saying is all the things "anti-republicans" have ranted would "never happen" for years have/will happen.

How far a step is it to a united Ireland as more and more cross-border institutions are established?

Rock Climber

You've not answered the question which was, how many unionists agree with you that they are dis enfranchised within the UK and would be better off in a united Ireland?

1%? 2%?
You'd need their consent n'est pas?
Unless catholics can outbreed them,which might happen in about 20 years or so at current rates... assuming some of them don't vote unionist.

Mighty_Mouse

note the "IMO" part of the above sentence. and again

We've done this before Rockclimber so it'll be a case of wait and see?

Troll your heart out Rockclimber because I already know your reaction when it comes to engaging you in rational debate.

sceptre

Mighty_Mouse wrote:

We've done this before Rockclimber so it'll be a case of wait and see? How do you fancy SF chances of being in a power-sharing governement? I would say increasing by the day.

What I'm saying is all the things "anti-republicans" have ranted would "never happen" for years have/will happen.

Erm, we've had this exact line of reasoning before and I thought it was prety crap last time I heard it. A few people may have said X will never happen and so on but I seem to recall plenty of people here outlining the possibilities of all three items you mentioned happening. Even Unionists (with a capital Yoo) and Republicans (with a capital Orr) going for an ice-cream cone together if they were forced into it. It's terribly illogical logic so something a little better might be good as I'm rather interested in finding logic in northern Ireland posts on either sides of the discussion when they contain logical flow (so I'm interested in what you might have to say about something interesting).

I've got nothing substantial as poor to point out on the other side of the argument yet but I'm 100% sure I'll find a few things in a few posts (it is traditional after all for rationality to be thrown out with the bath water at some point)

earwicker

A couple of things:

Even though it may be seen as a shameful practice, I see nothing wrong with campaigning politically for a united Ireland. There is not much desire to return to an armed struggle in the republican/ nationalist movement. Indeed, the PIRA was so thorughly infiltrated by agents and informers at the end, it was practically strangled. Of course there are dissidents, but I'm not at all sure that they have much support the have in the broader nationalist/ republican movement. Omagh turned public opinion and made them ripe for infilitration by intelligence. In the current global climate, I don't realistically see these dissidents ever being armed again.

It's also interesting how a lot of people in the Republic have been shamed into not even contemplating a united Ireland. This shame is a complex phenomenon, and it produces all sorts of excuses for why it wouldn't work. The media is of course a major factor in the equation. It sometimes seems that our collective guilt for the violence in the North has made people run from the issue.

The other thing is the defeatism I read in some posts that is expressed in a common belief/ fear that a united Ireland would cause a new eruption of violence. It seems to stem from a distrust of the unionist community. If nationalists can do it in the UK, the why not unionists in a united Ireland? Do people not believe they could live in peace in Ireland if their material needs are catered for and protected? Perhaps in a less "catholicised" Ireland, it will be easier to reassure unionists that their beliefs will be respected and valued for what they bring to the country. It won't be easy, but I don't see why it shouldn't be tried. After a period of calming the politics, the North could well vote to join with the South. Perhaps a federal Ireland will be a necessary step.

As far as "why?" is concerned, having looked at the history of the North, the negotiations of the Treaty, the short-term need for support on the part of Lloyd-George's coalition government, the gerrymandering, the neglect, the civil rights movement, I would tentatively reply to the "why?" question with "A united Ireland would address the wrongs that were done when the border was drawn." But perhaps even to mention past injustices is now seen as propaganda.

After 30 years of maiming and killing can anybody argue that drawing the border was a good idea? If the unionist community is assured of their equality in it and consent to it, I see no reason why a united Ireland shouldn't happen. The issue needs to be aired first, though. Negativity and defeatism prevent that from happening.

omnicorp

then why does the UK have to pump £10 billion into it to keep it afloat?
And would we be able to afford to maintain it's superb infrastructure?

Johnny_the_fox

omnicorp wrote:

then why does the UK have to pump £10 billion into it to keep it afloat?

Simply because it part of the crumbling "Empire"... :eek:

Saruman

Why do people even want a 32 county republic??? there has never been such a thing even before the British invaded centuries ago so why do people think its our right?? Leave them be up north with their own government and leave theor problems as theirs! I dont think i would like all the problems that was result of a 32 county republic.

omnicorp

em, if you were living in a country with superb infrastructure, then became part of another country and all this infrastructure was shut down, how would you feel?

True, Ireland was NEVER one united country, two is the best it's been.
in the "good 'ol days" before the English ireland was ruled by difrerent clans ruling their own counties.

I was born in San Francisco, CA to Irish parents, then moved to Scotland, then to Ireland.

And Kev Boy, I think that comment was a bit racist.
(just a bit)

omnicorp

MOST irish people I know, aren't practising Catholics.
Read above what I said about Ireland never being United.

Most Irish are of English, Norman, Scottish or Celtic descent.
Very little old Irish. ie. before the Celts.

omnicorp

humph... where DO i begin.
Catholiscism is NOT the one true religion.
There were religions before Catholiscom now branded paganosm by the church.
Christ came to help revive spirituality among men, not to starty a religion.
Catholiscm, let's see... Crusades, corrupt Popes (Not J.P II), too much rituals, can't seem to explain religion.
Protestanism came about when St. Martin Luther (well not OFFICIALY a saint, but he shopuld be) tried to save Christianity from the Corrupt, Evil Catholic Popes. His Religion makes some sense.
Anglicanism, is nearly the exact same as Catholisim, it was started becaues Henry VIII wanted to divorce Catherine of Aragon and the Church wouldn't let him.
Calvinism, (in the north) is a strict version of Catholiscm started by John Calvin who started a Utopia in Geneva, Switzerland in tye Rennaiscance.

You owe these figures your Religion, without them, Catholiscm would be long gone.

As for the Religion issue, you just broke commandment #2, proving how religious you are.

States should be completely secular (not Aethiest) like France.

omnicorp

first of all... I do not like or follow Ian Pailey, nor the Quenn, nor the Unionists, Nor George Bush, Nor Fianna Fail, Nor the IRA, nor Tony Blair, nor Sinn Fein)

I believe in Socialism. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=181542&highlight=socialism%3A
I believe in God, not Catholism.
If we can't sort out our own country, what makes you think we can sort out this one?

And please do arue with me, it's fun...

omnicorp

OK, if you like Catholicm, Capitalism, or whatever, it's up to you, but if step out of your idealistisc eyesight, you will find out that A United Ireland is not Economically or Politically possible yet.

I would like a United Ireland, but it's not possible yet.

And what do You bleive in?

Giblet

kev boy wrote:

Idiot speak

Wow another armchair warrior, or do we have leaflets!

Go scratch IRA into your classroom table and kindly fúck off.

omnicorp

thank you for that.

I don't know if he supports the IRA though, they have hampered a United Ireland though by increasing anger and conflict between the two nations.

Giblet

omnicorp wrote:

thank you for that.

I don't know if he supports the IRA though, they have hampered a United Ireland though by increasing anger and conflict between the two nations.

Somehow, I don't think he really cares as long as he can argue his "point".

The "'s dictate he doesn't have a clue what he is talking about beyond "Hur Hur Ireland is deadly, get the brits out"

omnicorp

hmmm, plenty of those about, bet he supports Man U., and has never been in Britain.

anyway, time for an intelligent conversation on the topic...

gandalf

Ignore this idiot he's banned and I am deleting all his posts it would be cool if you could remove any of his quoted messages as well.

omnicorp

righty-o sir... AM I being a good boy now after my ban?

AngelofFire

humph... where DO i begin.
Catholiscism is NOT the one true religion.
There were religions before Catholiscom now branded paganosm by the church.
Christ came to help revive spirituality among men, not to starty a religion.
Catholiscm, let's see... Crusades, corrupt Popes (Not J.P II), too much rituals, can't seem to explain religion.
Protestanism came about when St. Martin Luther (well not OFFICIALY a saint, but he shopuld be) tried to save Christianity from the Corrupt, Evil Catholic Popes. His Religion makes some sense.
Anglicanism, is nearly the exact same as Catholisim, it was started becaues Henry VIII wanted to divorce Catherine of Aragon and the Church wouldn't let him.
Calvinism, (in the north) is a strict version of Catholiscm started by John Calvin who started a Utopia in Geneva, Switzerland in tye Rennaiscance.

You owe these figures your Religion, without them, Catholiscm would be long gone.

As for the Religion issue, you just broke commandment #2, proving how religious you are.

States should be completely secular (not Aethiest) like France.

Glad to see that somebody remembers their Junior Cert history.

Religion up north has very little to do with the situation in NI these days. The conflict up in the 6 counties was more a political one. Religion was just a cultural costume and bandwagon i.e. an excuse for division.Im a practising southern protestant and a proud irish nationalists. Ulster protestant claims that home rule meant "rome rule" did have some legitamacey between 1921 and 1970, but they need no longer fear loosing their religious liberty. I think that uniting all people of this island under one nation would be workable and worthwhile, but its not something that can happen overnight.

pork99

omnicorp wrote:

Most Irish are of English, Norman, Scottish or Celtic descent.
Very little old Irish. ie. before the Celts.

Just to educate you

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,2765-1247765,00.html

it appears that we are actually mostly of pre-Celtic genetic stock

I'm standing by for a flood of vitriol because it's a story in a British newspaper but it's about research carried out in TCD

earwicker

Protestanism came about when St. Martin Luther (well not OFFICIALY a saint, but he shopuld be) tried to save Christianity from the Corrupt, Evil Catholic Popes. His Religion makes some sense.
Anglicanism, is nearly the exact same as Catholisim, it was started becaues Henry VIII wanted to divorce Catherine of Aragon and the Church wouldn't let him.
Calvinism, (in the north) is a strict version of Catholiscm started by John Calvin who started a Utopia in Geneva, Switzerland in tye Rennaiscance.

You owe these figures your Religion, without them, Catholiscm would be long gone.

Not really sure what you are getting at here, but since the original post it was responding to is gone, I'll just say this. One could simply counter your potted history of religion with a "without catholicism, there would be no protestant sects." It's circular and goes nowhere.

But religion has a complicated history in the North. While far from being the sole factor, simply saying it has nothing to do with the Troubles is to misrepresent matters.

omnicorp

IF, they were to be religious people, they would have to obey "Thou shalt not kill" and we wouldn't have this problem.
That and all this mindless violence hardly has anything to do with Religion.

gandalf

omnicorp wrote:

righty-o sir... AM I being a good boy now after my ban?

What the hell do you want a Gold Star or something !!! Just don't get on my radar again and I won't have to stamp on you like a cockroach !!!!

omnicorp

Sorry :{

Well... if we did have a United ireland, what would we do about the new political system we'd have to have.

shltter

omnicorp wrote:

IF, they were to be religious people, they would have to obey "Thou shalt not kill" and we wouldn't have this problem.
That and all this mindless violence hardly has anything to do with Religion.

political violence is rarely mindless

i agree religion is just a lazy way to explain the conflict