32-county Irish state - when?

omnicorp

yeah. And the conflict in Israel is religious too(.)
so is the conflict in Iraq(.)

It's all power, money and politics.

cdebru

don't forget oil

although that probaly comes under money power and politics

omnicorp

yes, if only I could get an axe, Tony Blair and George Bush... if only... well, I can dream...

marco murphy

Quite a lot of people want to have their children grow up in a united ireland.Quite a lot of people want the british OFF this island.

marco murphy

The conflict in the north isnt religious.

marco murphy

There is sectarianism,racism etc.

sceptre

There's an edit button that you can easily use when you realise you want to make your post two lines long instead of one line long a minute after you posted your first line. Might be useful in the future.

The conflict in the north isn't religious and yet it is. It isn't religious in that it isn't incited by the churches on either end (not even Paisley's crowd) and it isn't religious in that like most territorial disagreements it's more about power and less about the official reasons for the differences (religion, skin colour, whatever other reasons people have for thinking that the guy down the road has something against them). However it's fair to say that religion has been used in this little petty power struggle that's been going on up there for quite some time and it's fair to say that the majority of people up in the north view themselves as being from one religious community or the other and mistrust the other grouping, using a particular religion as a banner and hence, in that it is effectively about religion.

That's assuming you weren't running with a "we were here first and so on and so forth, it's all about where yer from" line, in which case see my point above. It's overly simplistic to say it's about religion. It's also overly simplistic to say it's not about religion. Either way the shower running around with baseball bats at night or planting bombs in shopping centres, sending mentally handicapped individuals on to buses with bombs, smuggling tobaccy and/or petrol, shooting TV licence inspectors in the knees or fooling the undereducated with up their arse rhetoric how it'd be better if the other shower (pick whichever other shower you like) were gone are in truth a crowd of criminal scum.

Of course there are quite a lot of people who want the British off this island. Equally there are quite a number who don't want the British off the island. Some of them are even British. It's a failure to recognise the legitimacy of the views of the opposing parties that give these heroic petrol smugglers a source of the limited power they have. And that's a frigging shame - there are plenty of people who want to get on with their lives and wouldn't really like the idea of not being able to take the kids to school in security or like the idea of going to whatever pub they like without the tiny fear of getting shot because they're a filthy taigue or prod.

That's the kind of society these tossers bred.

mike65

sceptre wrote:

Of course there are quite a lot of people who want the British off this island. Equally there are quite a number who don't want the British off the island. Some of them are even British.

Yep and I'm staying! Could'nt leave now, would'nt know where to go...

Mike.

A Dub in Glasgo

sceptre wrote:

The conflict in the north isn't religious and yet it is. It isn't religious in that it isn't incited by the churches on either end (not even Paisley's crowd) and it isn't religious in that like most territorial disagreements it's more about power and less about the official reasons for the differences (religion, skin colour, whatever other reasons people have for thinking that the guy down the road has something against them). However it's fair to say that religion has been used in this little petty power struggle that's been going on up there for quite some time and it's fair to say that the majority of people up in the north view themselves as being from one religious community or the other and mistrust the other grouping, using a particular religion as a banner and hence, in that it is effectively about religion.

.

In essence, this is the nub of the problem. Ulster was partitioned to ensure an inbuilt majority for one side (at the total expense of the other side). Democracy in action?.... You're having a laugh!

Lennoxschips

Originally posted by Neocrammer

Many of the problems crippling our public services are simple supply and demand ones. The railway for example would make a smaller loss if it covered a larger geographical area.

Surely you mean more of a loss?

The reason the railways in Ireland aren't profitable is due to a small population in a large geographical area. That's why they closed the line in the West between Limerick and Sligo. All the profitable lines are in and around Dublin, where population density is large enough to support high density railway systems.

Profitability on railway lines has more to do with population density than the size of the area they cover.

sceptre

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Democracy in action?.... You're having a laugh!

I might have missed my reference to democracy (I didn't make one as there are bigger fish to fry and a philosophical discussion on what democracy should and shouldn't entail & who it should and shouldn't inconvenience probably lies in a thread of its own). Besides, the island was partitioned as most of the folks up north didn't want to be part of the wonderful banana state we have down here (and I suppose it's our banana state, kudos to us) rather than to arbitrarily create an inbuilt majority for anyone up there. I wouldn't have drawn the line quite where it was/now is but then I've odd views about such things - I wouldn't have settled the Gran Chaco border dispute (for example) the way it was left and there are hundreds of borders worldwide I'd have placed in different places given the opportunity. This one isn't incredibly different on its own merits. Which isn't to say that it wasn't important, it just wasn't any more important than anywhere else. Sure, Carson actively campaigned to have places like Donegal left out of his protestant state but it would have taken a far bigger loon than Carson even on his most looney days to contemplate including them in the first place.

A Dub in Glasgo

Sorry sceptre, I was not trying to say you raised the democracy issue. I was stating something which gets trotted out a lot 'The democratic will of the people will decide'. The truth of the matter is, NI is an undemocratic state built to have an inbuilt majority. A lot of people over here in the UK are stunned to hear that part of Ulster is in the Republic of Ireland (mind you, there are still folk who think Dublin is part of the UK!!).

unme

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

A lot of people over here in the UK are stunned to hear that part of Ulster is in the Republic of Ireland

Really? I think not. Why would "a lot of people" in the UK even give a toss about which counties form which province in Ireland.

The media commonly use the name "Ulster" to denote both the traditional geographic province (e.g. for sport) and the smaller part under UK administration, also known as 'the six counties'.

I guess that this interchangable use might cause some confusion. However, to say that a lot of people in the UK are "stunned" to hear the distinction explained, hardly makes any sense.

The 'north' is a political reality that people today have to live with. It originated from a need to reach a reasonable and stable compromise on an island where there are two very distinct and well established traditions. Ireland is not alone in having to face up to diversity in tradition and identity, formed by many years of troubled history. A look at the maps of Europe over the centuries will show many changing borders - but thankfully, most nations have realised the futility in hatred and conflict.

A Dub in Glasgo

unme wrote:

Really? I think not. Why would "a lot of people" in the UK even give a toss about which counties form which province in Ireland.

The media commonly use the name "Ulster" to denote both the traditional geographic province (e.g. for sport) and the smaller part under UK administration, also known as 'the six counties'.

I guess that this interchangable use might cause some confusion. However, to say that a lot of people in the UK are "stunned" to hear the distinction explained, hardly makes any sense.

The 'north' is a political reality that people today have to live with. It originated from a need to reach a reasonable and stable compromise on an island where there are two very distinct and well established traditions. Ireland is not alone in having to face up to diversity in tradition and identity, formed by many years of troubled history. A look at the maps of Europe over the centuries will show many changing borders - but thankfully, most nations have realised the futility in hatred and conflict.

Yes really. People have a view that Ulster is NI. When I tell them that part of Ulster is in the Republic of Ireland, they are stunned. You can believe it or you can believe it not.

unme

Poblachtach wrote:

Quite a lot of people want to have their children grow up in a united ireland.Quite a lot of people want the british OFF this island.

Quite a lot of us want our children to grow up with access to good education, good health care, safe from crime (including sectarian crime), with access to good jobs, good housing, etc., etc., etc.

Very few of us obsess about politics and religion to the point that we lose grasp on the realities of life.

shltter

unme wrote:

Quite a lot of us want our children to grow up with access to good education, good health care, safe from crime (including sectarian crime), with access to good jobs, good housing, etc., etc., etc.

Very few of us obsess about politics and religion to the point that we lose grasp on the realities of life.

do you think that vast majority of people in the 6 counties dont want that as well

as has been pointed it is not a religous conflict

it easy to accuse people of obsessing when you dont live in the situation they do if you lived there perhaps you would have a different perspective

unme

shltter wrote:

it easy to accuse people of obsessing when you dont live in the situation they do if you lived there perhaps you would have a different perspective

What makes you think you know where I live, or where most people on this forum live? You shouldn't jump to conclusions because our views are different from yours.

SkepticOne

omnicorp wrote:

Catholiscism is NOT the one true religion.

I think you are one of them Secular Humanists.

shltter

unme wrote:

What makes you think you know where I live, or where most people on this forum live? You shouldn't jump to conclusions because our views are different from yours.

i didn't claim to know you r geographical location nor do i care where you live

my point is that wherever you do live you have not been affected by the political situation therefore you think other people are obsessing

unme

shltter wrote:

my point is that wherever you do live you have not been affected by the political situation therefore you think other people are obsessing

I, like many others HAVE been affected by the "political situation". Your assumptions are incorrect. I have chosen not to become obsessed by it.

Bye.

shltter

unme wrote:

I, like many others HAVE been affected by the "political situation". Your assumptions are incorrect. I have chosen not to become obsessed by it.

Bye.

well virtually everyone on the island can claim to be affected to some degree.

however the idea that people choose to become obsessed is nonsense people react differently some run away and look for the quiet life others stand up for themselves.

earwicker

sceptre wrote:

Besides, the island was partitioned as most of the folks up north didn't want to be part of the wonderful banana state we have down here (and I suppose it's our banana state, kudos to us) rather than to arbitrarily create an inbuilt majority for anyone up there.

The border as drawn was little short of gerrymandering. Those who argued for it did so to ensure what Sir James Craig called "a protestant parliament and a protestant state." That is not really disputable. Interestingly, the British initially proposed that the border take in all nine counties of Ulster, with the view that representative democracy, due to a different balance of protestant/ catholic voters would vote the border out of existence (not unlike what's written into the Good Friday document). However, Lloyd George's dependence on Unionist votes to keep his coalition government afloat while negotiating the Treaty, coupled with the prior illegal arming of an all protestant paramilitary outfit (the first UVF, later the B-Specials) to rise up against the Third Home Rule Bill in 1914, lead to Craig, Carson and Bonar Law getting their way. The line was drawn to keep them happy, and Northern Ireland was born.

pork99

earwicker wrote:

The border as drawn was little short of gerrymandering. Those who argued for it did so to ensure what Sir James Craig called "a protestant parliament and a protestant state." That is not really disputable. Interestingly, the British initially proposed that the border take in all nine counties of Ulster, with the view that representative democracy, due to a different balance of protestant/ catholic voters would vote the border out of existence (not unlike what's written into the Good Friday document). However, Lloyd George's dependence on Unionist votes to keep his coalition government afloat while negotiating the Treaty, coupled with the prior illegal arming of an all protestant paramilitary outfit (the first UVF, later the B-Specials) to rise up against the Third Home Rule Bill in 1914, lead to Craig, Carson and Bonar Law getting their way. The line was drawn to keep them happy, and Northern Ireland was born.

Any truth, I wonder , in the rumour that the British government tried to hand South Armagh over to the Republic back in the 70s or 80s on the basis that they weren't wanted so there was no point staying? The response of the government here was to decline as they needed a big swathe of bandit country like they needed a hole in the head.

For sure NI is an artificial state but 80 years of history has turned it into an even more different place from "the South" than it was before partition. That's just the reality of the situation as Adams likes to say.

As for the "artifical Unionist majority", even that cannot be taken for granted in the next couple of decades given the demographic trends up there.

Really? I think not. Why would "a lot of people" in the UK even give a toss about which counties form which province in Ireland.

I read somewhere that there was poll conducted in "mainland" Britain a few years ago about the future of the North in the UK; roughly 50% felt it should leave the UK, 25% that it should continue to be part of the UK and there were about 25% don't know/"where's Northern Ireland, is it somewhere near Wales?" (But then again about 20% or 30% of poll respondants thought Ian Paisley was a Catholic )

omnicorp

They don't care, we don't care, NI is stuck in limbo.
The unwanted country.