M3 Clonee-Kells route selection and archaelogical info

murphaph

Metrobest wrote:

The commuters of Navan, Dunshaughlin and Dunboyne need this motorway

Like a hole in the head.

Metrobest wrote:

Something has got to be done

Build the Interconnector (as well as completing Spencer Dock Station) and at the same time reopen Navan line completely including a multi-storey P&R at Pace and anywhere else that's deemed appropriate together with appropriate link roads. Upgrade the road to high quality 2+1 (it's already bloody wide in places) and bypass Kells/Navan/Dunshaughlin with same or DC. Grade separate Fairyhouse cross roads. Job done. The N3 is primarily a commuter route and is quite nice to drive outside the rush hour.

I'm no tree hugger, but I believe that area is quite special to our history and whilst I take on board your points about it being treated poorly in the past, people were more ignorant then. The main reason I don't believe in this motorway is that it encourages even more car based commuting into Dublin. This could easily be transfered to rail with adequate P&Rs and if the towns were just bypassed and road upgraded to 2+1 then there would be no need to toll it so there would be no disincentive to motorists to use the P&R (having paid a hefty couple of tolls would you want to now pay a train fare? I think not). The Dunshaughlin bypass was put on hold so this road would be built IMHO.

Victor

I wonder if putting the P&R on the Navan side of the toll would have a bearing on things?

Metrobest wrote:

The senseless "Save" Tara campaign is causing immense suffering

Quick, report them to Amnesty International.

murphaph

Victor wrote:

I wonder if putting the P&R on the Navan side of the toll would have a bearing on things?

So do Iarnrod Eireann. It's mentioned quite cleraly in their initial feaseablity study as being a point of concern. They propose coming to some arrangement with the future toll operator as one way to sort it out. Personally I think it's a disgrace that this would even be considered. The P&R should cost as little as possible to use if we really wnt people to change modes.

BrianD

Metrobest wrote:

The "Sava Tara" campaigners are getting desperate. So are the Irish Times journalists who seem determined to slant their coverage. We never hear from the silent majority, the people who want this motorway to be built ASAP. I hate the way the Save Tara green goblins are hijacking this issue, pretending they have public support. The commuters of Navan, Dunshaughlin and Dunboyne need this motorway.

Something has got to be done. The senseless "Save" Tara campaign is causing immense suffering - to taxpayers, to commuters.. and to newspaper readers bored out of their trees by this ridiculous protest. I feel that if the "Save Tara" group delays this project any further, they should have to pay the costs. That would soon silence them!

Remember the hippies who hugged the trees in the Glen O'The Downs? Who now would seriously contend that that road was a mistake? Maybe the Irish Times should take a look at its own Trees supplement, published Tuesday, in which options for tree-lined roads were discussed. It was stated that there are now MORE trees on the Glen than ever!

What this means for Tara is this. Screened by trees, miles away from the Hill, twice as far away as the existing N3, the new M3 will be completely unobtrusive.

This sounds a little desperate to me! There is no widespread public support for this m-way. There is only support for it because the public have been told that the m-way is the bypass for Dunshaughlin and Navan. Obviously they are then saying, we support that!

Fairplay to the Save Tara and Carrickmines protestors and long may they continue. The M3 is a monument to bad planning and infrastructural development. Unfortunately, there is no stopping it now but the issues raised during this debate will hopefully influence future planning and decisions in regard to major roads and transport investment.

The protestors have highlighted the impact of the road on the important and historic area of Tara. Certainly it is debatable will the planned road have more impact than the current road from a visual point of view. Possibly not. What it does mean - and a point most people prefer to ignore - is that the M3 will have a definite impact on the area it serves. We will see the gradual sub-urbanisation of the areas along the route - this process has already started. This is where we shall see the ultimate ruin of the Tara/Skryne valley not just as a historic area but a rural area that does not need to be urbanised.

Metro your posting smacks of fascism. The Tara folks are contributing to this debate. It is quite clear that the NRA and the Government don't have the answers because they never had a rational plan for why this route needed to be built in the first place.

DMC

No widespread support, BrianD?

http://www.unison.ie/meath_chronicle/stories.php3?ca=34&si=1335229&issue_id=12051

120 days spent in gridlock

MANY Meath commuters have spent their entire working lives waiting for a better road infrastructure, the Oireachtas Committee on Transport was told last week.

Representatives of Dunshaughlin, Kells and Navan Chambers of Commerce said a bypass for Dunshaughlin was first mooted in 1973 and stressed that Meath needed a proper road structure, and in particular, the M3 as proposed.

On the delegation were Adrienne Bowen, Dunshaughlin Commerce; Penny McGowan, Kells, and Eamonn Gavigan, Navan. They said the economy of Meath and the region to the north-west was crying out for infrastructure.

“No industry of any significance is prepared to invest in an area deficient in infrastructure such as roads, telecommunications, access to airports and ports, power supply. Meath has been left undeveloped in these areas. We are submitting to you that the area is a sleeping giant and that given a proper infrastructure, it is ripe for extensive development,” they argued.

“Many people spend four hours a day in traffic - equivalent to 120 working days a year. These are hours that would be far better invested in productive activity.”

They stressed that no further time should be lost in progressing the M3. “It is not feasible to spend any further time debating the issue or considering putting it through a further planning process. All of that has been done. We need this motorway and we need it now,” they submitted.

http://www.unison.ie/meath_chronicle/stories.php3?ca=38&si=1335209&issue_id=12051

M3 survey: 32% felt road would go right through Hill of Tara

THE Meath Chambers of Commerce are calling for an immediate green light for the proposed M3 motorway following a recent survey which showed that 78.8 per cent of those surveyed were in favour of, or did not object to the proposed route.

The research also found that just 37 per cent of respondents could identify the correct route of the proposed motorway and 32 per cent incorrectly believed that the proposed route went right through the Hill of Tara itself.

In January, the Chambers of Commerce in Navan, Dunshaughlin and Kells commissioned Orchard Research and Analysis Ltd, Drogheda, to conduct research into issues relating to work and travel along the N3 corridor.

Information was collected by way of 500 door-to-door interviews during the period between 22nd January 2005 and 4th February 2005. Interviews were conducted during the evenings and at weekends.

Interviews were conducted in Dunshaughlin, Navan and Kells, with interview locations being selected to cover the social composition of the area. No information was given during interview about the client who had commissioned the research, nor was it stated whether the client supported or opposed the proposed M3 motorway.

Of the 500 respondents, 260 (52%) were male, and 240 (48%) were female. Over 46% indicated that they worked in Dublin. Respondents were asked whether or not they were in favour of a motorway being built between Dublin and Kells.

Overall, while over 87% of respondents were in favour or strongly in favour of such a motorway being built, only 4.81% of respondents indicated that they were against or strongly against such a proposal.

Respondents were given a map, which showed the current N3 from Dunshaughlin to Kells. It included three possible routes for the proposed motorway. One marked a straight line between Dunshaughlin and Kells; the second route was the current proposed route, and the third route was shown going over the Hill of Tara.

Respondents were asked to indicate which route they felt was the proposed route and only 37% of respondents were able to correctly identify the proposed route, with 32.2% of respondents believing that the proposed route was going over the Hill of Tara.

Metrobest

Thanks for those articles, DMC. Funny how those findings were never reported in the Irish Times. Obviously Frank McDonald didn't want the facts to get in the way of a good story.

And the findings show just how terribly the protesters have twisted the debate. One third of respondents believing the motorway goes over the hill of Tara! This is akin to the percentage of Americans who are convinced Saddam was behind 911. It just shows, if you repeat mistruths often enough, people will swallow them hook, line and sinker.

murphaph

Come on lads, everyone knows in this day and age that if you want your survey to prove something then it will. You just get your pollsters to ask questions a certain way. You think their survey bothered telling the 500 people that a railway track bed parallels their N3 :rolleyes:

BrianD

Metrobest wrote:

Thanks for those articles, DMC. Funny how those findings were never reported in the Irish Times. Obviously Frank McDonald didn't want the facts to get in the way of a good story.

And the findings show just how terribly the protesters have twisted the debate. One third of respondents believing the motorway goes over the hill of Tara! This is akin to the percentage of Americans who are convinced Saddam was behind 911. It just shows, if you repeat mistruths often enough, people will swallow them hook, line and sinker.

I don't think the Irish Times has mis-reported anything in relation to the M3 debate. It has certainly questioned Government policy without taking it as de facto. The protestors have not twisted the debate in manner shape or form and I challenge you to demonstrate where they have done so. I don't recall any item in the media where it was reported that the m-way passes over the hill of Tara.

Frank McDonald is a fair and honest reporter and I have always admired the stance he has taken both in relation to this story and other issues relating to development in this country.

jank

Metrobest your digging a hole for yourself it seems
Who carried out these surveys?
Who do they represent?

Oh thats right the business people of those districts becasue this road will make those people richer.

doh!! :rolleyes:
The chamber of commerce of these towns dont give 2 ****s about the enviroment and history. All the care for is the $$$$


[penny drops!!]

By the way im all for this road. But not for the sake of destroying and area.
It smacks of bad planning and if it goes ahead then it will make carrigemines look like a tea party. The rail link should be opened up too

I feel that if the "Save Tara" group delays this project any further, they should have to pay the costs. That would soon silence them!

That says it all!?

chewy

Respondents were given a map, which showed the current N3 from Dunshaughlin to Kells. It included three possible routes for the proposed motorway. One marked a straight line between Dunshaughlin and Kells; the second route was the current proposed route, and the third route was shown going over the Hill of Tara.

Respondents were asked to indicate which route they felt was the proposed route and only 37% of respondents were able to correctly identify the proposed route, with 32.2% of respondents believing that the proposed route was going over the Hill of Tara.


that is soooooooooooooooooooo a slanted survey no one ever said it would go straight over tara, the only people i've heard saying that are the pro m3 business men in some sort of faux rebuttal. it gave no option for the route preffered my those wishing to avoid the tara skynre valley so it was a total fake of a survey... and it not just for the resident of meath to decide anyway...

somebody pointed out that the row is over 3km of a 70 km motorway build the by passes there nothing stoping the nra from doing that...

BrianD

The M3 is not being delayed at all...they are working away as we speak. The powers that be are finding that they have to debate the topic a little more and hold a few more enquiries and site visits. These are all concurrent to the ongoing work. Unless somebody shouts stop! the M3 will continue to be built.

chewy

waht parts?

jank

chewy wrote:

Respondents were given a map, which showed the current N3 from Dunshaughlin to Kells. It included three possible routes for the proposed motorway. One marked a straight line between Dunshaughlin and Kells; the second route was the current proposed route, and the third route was shown going over the Hill of Tara.

Respondents were asked to indicate which route they felt was the proposed route and only 37% of respondents were able to correctly identify the proposed route, with 32.2% of respondents believing that the proposed route was going over the Hill of Tara.


that is soooooooooooooooooooo a slanted survey no one ever said it would go straight over tara, the only people i've heard saying that are the pro m3 business men in some sort of faux rebuttal. it gave no option for the route preffered my those wishing to avoid the tara skynre valley so it was a total fake of a survey... and it not just for the resident of meath to decide anyway...

somebody pointed out that the row is over 3km of a 70 km motorway build the by passes there nothing stoping the nra from doing that...

Well said. Those people in the meath whodesigned this "save the M3" mantra think who ever is against the motorway is anti-road, anti-progress, anti-modern anti-meath even.

Just like the bush mantra "your with us or against us!"

When is Mr cullen making his decsion anyway? its in march right!

DMC

chewy wrote:

somebody pointed out that the row is over 3km of a 70 km motorway build the by passes there nothing stoping the nra from doing that...

I think, for convenience sake, they want it done in one fail swoop.

As for accurate reporting, probably the Meath Chronicle would be the most impartial reporter, after all, its their readership and not Dublin-centric. From what I have seen, they have given a lot of space in recent weeks to both sides, whearas, before, we only heard from the Save Tara groups in the letters pages etc.

Over-simplifications in headlines and first paragraphs probably would make some people think they'll bulldoze the Hill.

mackerski

BrianD wrote:

Frank McDonald is a fair and honest reporter and I have always admired the stance he has taken both in relation to this story and other issues relating to development in this country.

My experience is the opposite. There's a place for journalists who are not objective - that place is an opinions column. Frank McDonald seems incapable of covering any road-based controversies impartially. I remember once hearing him declare the Stillorgan Dual-Carriageway to be practically of motorway standard. Nuff said.

Dermot

Victor

Respondents were asked to indicate which route they felt was the proposed route and only 37% of respondents were able to correctly identify the proposed route, with 32.2% of respondents believing that the proposed route was going over the Hill of Tara.

(a) 37% of respondents were able to correctly identify the proposed route,
(b) 32.2% of respondents believing that the proposed route was going over the Hill of Tara

means
(c) 30.8% thought it was a perfect straight line.

I call the thoroughness and bias in this poll into question.

murphaph

Victor wrote:

(c) 30.8% thought it was a perfect straight line.

The NRA are the new Roman conquerors though..... This road's gonna cost an awful lot of your hard earned salt.

jlang

Victor wrote:

(a) 37% of respondents were able to correctly identify the proposed route,
(b) 32.2% of respondents believing that the proposed route was going over the Hill of Tara

means
(c) 30.8% thought it was a perfect straight line.

I call the thoroughness and bias in this poll into question.

Also roughly 1/3 of the people picked each option - i.e. statistically they hadn't a clue and just picked randomly.

impr0v

murphaph wrote:

Come on lads, everyone knows in this day and age that if you want your survey to prove something then it will. You just get your pollsters to ask questions a certain way. You think their survey bothered telling the 500 people that a railway track bed parallels their N3 :rolleyes:

If it did, and the responses backed up your argument would you then consider the survey results important?

BrianD wrote:

I don't recall any item in the media where it was reported that the m-way passes over the hill of Tara.

It was certainly reported in this way in the Sunday Tribune, and I distinctly recall the phrase 'through the hill of Tara' being used in other media too, including radio bulletins. The phrase was used mostly towards the start of the paper's so-called campaign to save Tara, but they have since watered down their phraseology somewhat to something akin to 'through the Hill of Tara and Skryne Valley area'.

BrianD wrote:

The M3 is not being delayed at all...they are working away as we speak. The powers that be are finding that they have to debate the topic a little more and hold a few more enquiries and site visits. These are all concurrent to the ongoing work. Unless somebody shouts stop! the M3 will continue to be built.

That's correct. This is effectively a done deal, and the idea that Cullen or anyone else has to make a decions on whether it will go ahead or not is more mis-reporting of the facts. He has some decisions to make on the resolution of otherwise of the archaeological sites which have been identified, but nothing that will stop the construction. The only thing that will do that is a court injunction.

jlang wrote:

Also roughly 1/3 of the people picked each option - i.e. statistically they hadn't a clue and just picked randomly.

God bless those ignorant people of Meath. :rolleyes:

impr0v

BrianD wrote:

...What it does mean - and a point most people prefer to ignore - is that the M3 will have a definite impact on the area it serves. We will see the gradual sub-urbanisation of the areas along the route - this process has already started. This is where we shall see the ultimate ruin of the Tara/Skryne valley not just as a historic area but a rural area that does not need to be urbanised..

Already started? According to the 46% of people mentioned in the above (now dis-credited by murphaph) survey, the process is in full flight, without a motorway. The people buying houses in the villages along the route of the current N3 and driving into the city are presumably doing so because of the cost of living and buying a house in the city, I can't imagine they are choosing to commute because they like the time they spend on the current N3. The process can't be sustained and the only way to cut down on the amount of people being forced to commute long distances to work is to promote development, and urbanisation, in regions other than Dublin. Isn't this the point of a good network of infrastructure? To allow other areas of the country, apart from the capital, to develop commerically and to allow good access between those areas and Dublin.

In the short to medium term sure, it's going to aid the sub-urbanisation of the corridor, mainly around the interchanges and existing villages, but people have to live and work somewhere, and this process will happen with or without the motorway. As you probably know, villages like Rathoath in Meath are some of the fastest growing villages in the country. You can't cater for an increasing population and a strong economy with little clusters of thatched houses across the country and a metropolis in Dublin, expecially when it's so badly served with public transport and the spread is out, rather than up. However, in the long term, providing good a good network of infrastructure across the country will help the spread the development to other areas, and lead to a more balanced development of the country.

Because the corridor of the M3 will get more urbanised due to better access to Dublin, doesn't mean that Tara/Skryne Valley will. That's ultimately the decision of Meath County Council Planning Department, and indirectly the responsibility of the people of Meath, since they elect the County Councillors. I can't imagine them allowing a planning free for all in the region simply because a motorway now runs though it.

murphaph

Drove the N3 from Kells to Dublin during the rush this morning (8am). I know schools are off. Only point of congestion was at Fairyhouse cross roads. I was being very careful to observe the road, the width or carriageway, the visibility and adjoining properties along the route. I genuinely believe that high quality bypasses of Kells, Navan and Dunshaughlin (may as well be dual carriageway as they're new roads anyway but at least 2+1), grade separation at Fairyhouse and 2+1 carriageway on the existing route which has plenty of room either side for this. Re-open railway to Navan, providing plenty of P&R along the way. No need for a tolled money spinner for NTR to operate. Being realistic, what major centres of population exist beyond Navan on the N3?

impr0v

All that money wasted on consultants preparing the scheme when all that had to be done was to let you drive the route once and come back with your recommendations.

And what has NTR got to do with it? The tendering process for the scheme has yet to even produce a shortlist of applicants. I think you're mixing up your roads. Perhaps you'll have a drive down the M50 tomorrow and sort that one out too.

BrianD

impr0v wrote:

Already started? ... (quotation truncated) I can't imagine them allowing a planning free for all in the region simply because a motorway now runs though it.

I have a relative who is a planner. A substantial number of applications for industrial and residential projects have already been put in. Many are based on the existence of the M3 and access to same. For example, 800 houses south of Dunshaughlin with the single access point onto the existing N3 (refused) and a development of "holiday apartments and a visitor centre" in the old Workhouse outside of Dublin (appealed). There are numerous other retail developments around Navan. Substantial landbanks have been purchased in an around the M3 route. County councils have a strange way of justifying these types of developments once the right influence is applied and it will all seem more logical once the M3 is there as a justification. The M3 will actually create more unsustainable sub-urban dvelopment in the county.

The county doesn't a commuter rat run into Dublin that just amplifies the current development issues. It needs to look at ways that people can work and live within the county instead of just sleeping there.

impr0v

BrianD wrote:

The county doesn't a commuter rat run into Dublin that just amplifies the current development issues. It needs to look at ways that people can work and live within the county instead of just sleeping there.

Surely the industrial projects you mention, and the retail developements around Navan that you also make reference to, 'many [of which] are based on the existence of the M3 and access to same' provide a way for people to work in the county?

The road itself isn't a commuter rat run, it allows traffic in both ways at all times. It's the fact that people have to go to Dublin to get work that makes them commuters, they'll still do this without a new M3, because they have no choice. The road will also allow the work to come to the commuters, as evidenced by the planning applications which you referred to.

Roads don't promote or allow unsustainable sub-urban development, planners and planning policy do.

BrianD

It doesn't justify the construction of the M3. Industry within the county can be supported by a modest upgrade of the N3 or the counstruction of an alternative routing perhaps linking into the upgraded N2 or the M1. Other roads within the county could be upgraded to support this strategy in tandem with investment with public transport modes.

The N3 is a commuter rat run. Lets call a spade a spade! The traffic flows are all in one direction at peak times. The M3 will bring no more work to them then an upgraded N3. The M3 will just justify the opening up of more land for dormitory villages and create more commuters (to the delight of the toll operators).

I agree that roads don't promote or allow unsustainable development by themselves but its a bit chicken or egg, which comes first. The fact is that this road is an expamle of badly thought out infrastuctural planning that will lead to further bad planning decisions. New development will be justified because of the new route and indeed encouraged to almost justify its existence in the first place.

murphaph

impr0v wrote:

All that money wasted on consultants preparing the scheme when all that had to be done was to let you drive the route once and come back with your recommendations.

And what has NTR got to do with it? The tendering process for the scheme has yet to even produce a shortlist of applicants. I think you're mixing up your roads. Perhaps you'll have a drive down the M50 tomorrow and sort that one out too.

This is the land of wasting money on consultants. Often they're best mates of politicians (or as in the case of NTR & Westlink, the politician was the consultant!). You really have such faith in consultants' reports? How naiive.

I used NTR as an example. I'm not mixing up any roads. People here are unfamiliar with any other toll operator (wonder why).

In any case, I prefaced my opinions contained within my post with "I genuinely believe". I, unlike some, can accept that I might actually be wrong, but I'm still entitled to my opinion.

impr0v

BrianD wrote:

The M3 will bring no more work to them then an upgraded N3.

I thought that your relative said that there were numerous applications for industrial projects and retail developments around Navan already made, many referencing the M3? As I said above, surely developments such as these bring jobs with them?

BrianD wrote:

Other roads within the county could be upgraded to support this strategy in tandem with investment with public transport modes.

Absolutely, but wherever industry or commercial ventures locate within the county, especially those organisations that are internationally focused, the only road they'll be worried about will be the one direct to the capital. The one that leads to the airport, the nearest large port, and the financial and services centre.

murphaph wrote:

This is the land of wasting money on consultants. Often they're best mates of politicians (or as in the case of NTR & Westlink, the politician was the consultant!).

Again, we're talking about the M3, not the M50, and using the case of a notoriously corrupt politician, to tar all, or 'many', engineering consultants with is a serious slight upon the profession, and is well within the realm of conjecture. If you have allegations to make about corruption within the ranks of the technical consultants whose services were sought in connection with this project I suggest you take them to a higher forum than this.

murphaph wrote:

You really have such faith in consultants' reports? How naiive.

You may think it is naiive to have faith in the professional opinion of a qualified consultant, with many years of experience in the field, but when offered the choice between that and the opinion of someone who seems to have difficulty differnentiating between this project and the entirely different M50, and who's view on the current state of the road vary from calling it a linear parking lot to proclaiming it largely congestion free within a few days, I consider it good judgement.

murphaph

impr0v wrote:

Again, we're talking about the M3, not the M50, and using the case of a notoriously corrupt politician, to tar all, or 'many', engineering consultants with is a serious slight upon the profession, and is well within the realm of conjecture. If you have allegations to make about corruption within the ranks of the technical consultants whose services were sought in connection with this project I suggest you take them to a higher forum than this.

Oh my God. Doon't be so rediculous. This is an open forum, not a court of law. It's here for us to express opinions. Opinions do not have to be based on facts. Anyway, you brought the M50 into the discussion.

You'll get your M3, of that I have no doubt. Somebody stands to make far too much money from it not to happen. It's short changing the people of Meath though, when they could have a nice rail link instead and a toll free road to the M50.You think when the M3 comes on stream that traffic will magically begin to flow freely at the M50 inerchange? hah, the traffic jams will stretch back miles because there will be nothing to regulate traffic flow. Enjoy.

Metrobest

Some people on this forum cannot grasp that the M3 is a piece of national infrastructure. As much as for Meath, the M3 will benefit all the Northern counties. It's 2005. You cannot expect people to risk their lives travling on antiquated, substandard roads.

I see many of the people here, like sheep, are echoing a Frank McDonald article in which he said the M3 should be shelved in favour of a 2+1 and a link to the M1. That would be madness, utter madness. There's no point building a motorway if it's going the wrong way. And the 2+1 example of Sweden is dubious. Northern Sweden is more sparsely populated than Ireland. In the South of Sweden you'll find a spaghetti bowl of motorways snaking through the countryside. We could learn a lot from the Swedes.

"Psychic" BrianD's prediction that the M3 will spawn development is also flawed. Bad planning, county Laois-style, spawns bad development. It's not the road - it's the mindset that controls it. Incidentally, I cannnot see there ever being industrial development in the vicinity of Tara. Too much fuss has been made by the protesters. No politican, no matter how corrupt, would want to attract these sort of loopy protests.

impr0v

murphaph wrote:

You'll get your M3, of that I have no doubt. Somebody stands to make far too much money from it not to happen.

Conjecture again!

murphaph wrote:

You think when the M3 comes on stream that traffic will magically begin to flow freely at the M50 inerchange?

No I don't think it will, and I don't think it will flow freely even when the M50 upgrade is completed, because roads alone aren't the answer to the problems that are causing the congestion. However, I don't think the M3 is as flawed a project as the furore around it suggests it to be. Before the media took the 'through the hill of Tara' line and fanned the subsequent flames the M3 had, with the exception of a fairly drawn out Oral Hearing, been very uncontroversial, especially considering the size of scheme it is. It's my opinion that once it's built it will prove itself to be unworthy of all the controversy and be seen as a valuable part of the national road network.

murphaph

@Impr0v;
You're damned right I'm speculating and conjecturing that someone will make a fortune from the poor ba$tard$ that'll be using it. As I said, enjoy your commuter motorway but don't make out like this commuter expressway is critical to national infrastructure. There is shag all industry in Meath, Cavan, Leitrim or Donegal. We haven't even linked Cork, Limerick or Galway!

Metrobest

I noticed today the latest abuse of the english language in the Irish Times, with the area through which the M3 will pass being referred to as the "Tara archaeological complex". Whilst accurate in a Kevin Myers sense, the use of the word "complex" confers upon the invisible relics a super-important, undeserved status.

Let's face it. Tara is not a beloved landscape, nor is an important landscape in the context of what can be seen in the rest of Ireland. Our country is beautiful but must we preserve every square inch of it, every blade of grass upon which our ancestors once trod?

The Rough Guide to Ireland damns the location with faint praise, saying the Tara hill looks like a well-kept golfcourse. They also remind us that this is the location to which "all the highways of Ireland once led". Further, tourists are advised to access Tara from the existing N3, which is very close by the hill.

DubTony

Metrobest wrote:

They also remind us that this is the location to which "all the highways of Ireland once led".

So it seems the planning hasn't changed a lot. All the highways just lead a little to the southeast these days

Tony

jank

Let's face it. Tara is not a beloved landscape, nor is an important landscape in the context of what can be seen in the rest of Ireland

Yawwn you said that around ten times now and you were wrong the first time and let me guess your still wrong.

Is there a reasont why they cant reroute the M3 away from tara?

murphaph

jank wrote:

Is there a reasont why they cant reroute the M3 away from tara?

Eh, it is already routed further away from Tara than the existing N3. I personally have no objection to the routing on environmental grounds.

Enduro

You may not object, but there is a huge body of both Irish and international expert archaeological opinion that does. Can you not see the huge delay that this will cause to the building of the motorway? Glen of the Downs / Carrickmines were minor trivialities in comparison. If your only interest is in getting a M3 (as opposed to THE proposed M3) built as soon as possible then surely you would be better off getting the thing re-routed onto one of the many proposed less sensitive routes. What is it that so important about the current route that you are unwilling to countenance one of the alternative routes?

BrianD

Metrobest wrote:

Let's face it. Tara is not a beloved landscape, nor is an important landscape in the context of what can be seen in the rest of Ireland. Our country is beautiful but must we preserve every square inch of it, every blade of grass upon which our ancestors once trod?

BS. in any case, it's not a landscape like the cliffs of moher but it is essential that it is preserved. Tara, probably one of the best known things about Ireland as it is immediately associated with the country.

It is important that you understand the arguements about the M3. While some people are concerned about the impact on the Tara-Skryne area the majority are concerned about the M3 for what it is - an appaling example of bad infrastructural development that will only lead to more bad development in the country.

BrianD

Metrobest wrote:

Some people on this forum cannot grasp that the M3 is a piece of national infrastructure. As much as for Meath, the M3 will benefit all the Northern counties. It's 2005. You cannot expect people to risk their lives travling on antiquated, substandard roads.

Risk there lives on the N3? Rubbish. It is a wide well aligned road and well capable of taking the current traffic. Busy at peak hours.

I see many of the people here, like sheep, are echoing a Frank McDonald article in which he said the M3 should be shelved in favour of a 2+1 and a link to the M1. That would be madness, utter madness. There's no point building a motorway if it's going the wrong way. And the 2+1 example of Sweden is dubious. Northern Sweden is more sparsely populated than Ireland. In the South of Sweden you'll find a spaghetti bowl of motorways snaking through the countryside. We could learn a lot from the Swedes.

The only one that is blinkered is you! Read your post. Why would the alternatives be going the wrong way?? All roads must lead to Dublin? A dual carriage way accross from say Navan to the M2 and M1 would achieve exactly the same results and tap into two under utilised roads. This would ease pressure on the existing N3 south of Navan while more than serving Navan residents and those north of it. It also opens up a corridor from east-west accross the county.

The 2+1 idea is not necessary at all and I wouldn't advocate it either. All we need is overtaking lanes every 10km like in Australia. The N3 is in need of upgrading but a m-way is overkill and contributes little or nothing to our national infrastructure.

"Psychic" BrianD's prediction that the M3 will spawn development is also flawed. Bad planning, county Laois-style, spawns bad development. It's not the road - it's the mindset that controls it. Incidentally, I cannnot see there ever being industrial development in the vicinity of Tara. Too much fuss has been made by the protesters. No politican, no matter how corrupt, would want to attract these sort of loopy protests.

Well, well well. What prompted the recent decision of the Laois councillors. The extension of the M7 into Laois was seized upon as justification for these rezonings. Now granted this is a different case as the N7/M7 is an intercity route and like the M1 should be an m-way. But put the road in and pro-development councillors and land owners will use it as an excuse. It is the same scenario in Meath but unlike the M&, the M3 is surplus to requirements. I agree it is the mindset that leads to the bad planning but it it is the same mindset that is giving us the M3 and is lobbying for it. Don't forget these pro-M3 groups are as "unelected" as the M3 protestors. They were happy to proceed with the M3 despite the fact that 70% of questionnaires returned during the public consultation opposed it.

FACT: The M3 will spawn development and most of it will be substandard and unsustainable in the long run.

The irony of the situation is that in the time wasted to cobble together the M3 PPP project we could be already be some way through an upgrade programme for the N3 that allievate some of the botlenecks and shortcomings of the existing road.

I also note that the southern toll booths will be located at the Blackbull/Piercetown so it nicely catch all including those going to the proposed park and ride rail facility in Dunboyne.

murphaph

Enduro wrote:

You may not object, but there is a huge body of both Irish and international expert archaeological opinion that does. Can you not see the huge delay that this will cause to the building of the motorway? Glen of the Downs / Carrickmines were minor trivialities in comparison. If your only interest is in getting a M3 (as opposed to THE proposed M3) built as soon as possible then surely you would be better off getting the thing re-routed onto one of the many proposed less sensitive routes. What is it that so important about the current route that you are unwilling to countenance one of the alternative routes?

Enduro, may I suggest that you actually read the whole thread before flying off the handle. I object to the road's construction on other grounds as already outlined. I have no interest in getting the M3 built at all.

murphaph

BrianD wrote:

I also note that the southern toll booths will be located at the Blackbull/Piercetown so it nicely catch all including those going to the proposed park and ride rail facility in Dunboyne.

A fact not lost on IE in their recent feasablity study. This is a problem as far as they are concerned but remember it's more important that the toll operator makes heaps of cash than actually alleviating traffic coming into Dublin. :rolleyes:

Victor

BrianD wrote:

A dual carriage way accross from say Navan to the M2 and M1 would achieve exactly the same results and tap into two under utilised roads. This would ease pressure on the existing N3 south of Navan while more than serving Navan residents and those north of it. It also opens up a corridor from east-west accross the county.

[Homer voice]Let's call it the "M51"[/Homer voice]

thejollyrodger

anyone watching Questions and answers about the M3. Hot topic alright. Very heated on both sides. What I want to know is, why is the motorway being built with NO provision for the railway. I think thats pretty cynical. I think they should still go ahead with the motorway, and eventually extend it all the way to the border.

murphaph

thejollyrodger wrote:

I think they should still go ahead with the motorway, and eventually extend it all the way to the border.

Why?

BrianD

thejollyrodger wrote:

anyone watching Questions and answers about the M3. Hot topic alright. Very heated on both sides. What I want to know is, why is the motorway being built with NO provision for the railway. I think thats pretty cynical. I think they should still go ahead with the motorway, and eventually extend it all the way to the border.

When you say no provision do you mean that the railway is only being talked about with no definite plan or that there is no bridges over the m3 to accomodate a future route?

Railway has always been a separate issue but was recently thrown into the debate as a sop to the opposition. In reality, there is no strategic plan - that's why the M3 is being built and the railway is only proposed. There is no need for a M3 route as it serves no real need what so ever otherthan give those on the route a motorway instead of a 2 wayroad. The plan is poor its almost arbitary they way these plans go ahead.

thejollyrodger

Well, they could include a bridge so that a railway could be built without having to come back (M50 style) and close the motorway in later years. Road is going to transport everyone, so the lack of a bridge is a disgrace and another instance of paddy planning being alive and well.

I think the motorway should be eventually extended all the way to the border for economic development. People in Derry and Donegal have a better chance of working there with a if there is high quality road going to the border.

A Rail corridor could eventually be extended to Cavan as well

cournioni

murphaph wrote:

Why?

Because it would help areas like Belturbet and Ballyconnell grow. It is needed for that area of Cavan. Plus the fact that Cavan town is a disaster when it comes to traffic.

cournioni

BrianD wrote:

There is no need for a M3 route as it serves no real need what so ever otherthan give those on the route a motorway instead of a 2 wayroad.

Yeah how often do you travel on the N3? Not very often by the look of things... :rolleyes:

Metrobest

I wonder was it true, what a guy in the Questions and Answers audience was saying about the M3 route slicing through the rail-line. If that's the case then, please, build a bridge and avoid future mayhem.

I have less sympathy for those who moan about tolls. Anyone unhappy with the toll can use the existing N3. My guess is most people will pay to avail of the quality road. Pay up, or shut up, is my feeling.

Nothing - and nobody - should now stand in the way of Meath people getting the road they deserve. It's quite clear the vast majority of people are delighted with the chosen route. Over 90 percent has given it the nod. Notice how the shrillest voices in the "Save" Tara group, principally Mr Safira [plus Mr McGrath- who has a strange opinion on the Third Reich] speak with Dublin 4 accents. Oh yeah, and I forgot about Stuart Townsend, who lives in .. Hollywood.

Crossley

Can anyone explain to me the purpose of the Blundelstown Interchange which is to be situated in the Tara-Skyrne valley? It's not to access Navan as the Kilcarn junction further on does that. If the Blundelstwon Interchange didn't exist I'd be far less concerned about eventual commercial development in the area.

thejollyrodger

I think P11 or someone should be demanding a bridge be built to accomadate 2 railway lines. The cost of the bridge wouldnt be a lot and would save a huge fiacso in the future.

Personally I think once the motorway is built, it fit in very well with the landscape. Road building here does cost a lot more than other European countries but we do build our roads to a high standard (i.e what Is built as opposed to whats not built) and it isnt one straight line from Dublin to Navan. There will be imaganative use of lightening etc and its further away from tara and lower into the ground at key areas

But no bridge for rail ?? That is a disgrace