M3 Clonee-Kells route selection and archaelogical info

Navan Junction

from ireland.com
Charlie Taylor

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2007/0501/breaking78.htm

Tue, May 01, 2007

Work on construction of the controversial M3 motorway, which is to pass through the Tara/Skreen valley has been stopped after the discovery of a new national monument.

Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government Dick Roche confirmed this evening that he had received a report that archaeologists working on the route have found evidence of a monument at Lismullin, Co Meath.

The minister is now believed to be consulting with the director of the National Museum after the National Monuments Service inspected the site.

The prehistoric "henge" site is a circular enclosure which is estimated to be about the size of three football fields.

A statement from the Department of the Environment which this evening said: "No works which would interfere with the monument may be carried out, except works urgently required to secure its preservation."

Currently, the archaeological team is authorised to continue to clean back the surface of the area, to complete a plan of the features and to check for associated features outside the enclosure.

A small number of stakeholes are also to be excavated to try to recover sufficient material for radiocarbon dating.

The Campagin to Save Tara said it was "delighted" that the discovery of the monument meant that construction of the M3 would temporarily cease.

Spokesman Michael Canney said: 'Everybody knew that this route was destined to destroy the landscape of Tara if it went ahead. The advice of national and international experts was ignored.

"This route was chosen because it was favoured by local politicians and businessmen. That this monument has been discovered is more by accident than by design and many other sites that were of significance have been hastily and inadequately surveyed.

"We now call on the Government and the NRA to abandon this route, admit they have made a serious mistake and act properly and positively to protect our heritage."

The pro-Tara group TaraWatch, which originally reported the site to the Keeper of Antiquities at the National Museum of Ireland yesterday, said that Mr Roche should reroute the M3 in order to avoid the monument.

"This site is a show-stopper and is without doubt a national monument of world significance according to our experts. It would be a sin to demolish it," said TaraWatch spokesperson Vincent Salafia.

© 2007 ireland.com

rc28

A "massive" national monument has been discovered beside the hill of Tara which has halted all work on the M3. To be fair to the protestors they did always warn that this would happen if it was constructed in the tara skryne valley and it turns out they were right all along. Besides I always thought they should have chosen the alternative route and not in such an archaeologically rich area as this was bound to happen. I also think the train line should have been given priority ahead of the motorway (although of course the dunshaughlin bypass should have been built long ago)
http://rte.ie/news/2007/0501/meath.html

EDIT: Beat me to it "navan junction"

Navan Junction

rc28 wrote:

I always thought they should have chosen the alternative route

Anyone with an iota of knowledge of the terrain around there cannot understand why the route was chosen..

The railway line followed a direct alignment between Dunshaughlin/Drumree and Navan, using the natural contours of the land through the Skane Valley. If I had been a betting man in 1999, I would have bet on a similar route to the railway being chosen with a new link road to Trim.

The M3 does meandar all over the place, and that (the Gabhra aka Tara/Skryne) valley has got to be an arcaeological minefield.

However, how they missed an enclosure the size of three football pitches beggars belief.

I swear the towns along the N3 corridor must be cursed by the Wicked Transport Fairy

I always thought something like the Tara brooch or the like might be found and stop works - not something with twice the land take of Croke Park

Zoney

This isn't a tale of conservationists vs. developers. It's just another chapter in the saga of government mismanagement and poor planning (or washing their hands of their management and responsibility role - not in Galway water of course). Let us hope a sensible decision on a way forward for Meath transport is taken and we don't end up with a chapter rivalling that of Luas, the M50, Dublin Port Tunnel, Metro (and there's a lot left to write in that one, it won't be pretty I fear), etc.

However, I wouldn't bet on it. Probably the most likely thing to happen is an even more protracted M3 project that will rival all those other stories. And when the M3 is finished, then what? How exactly is it going to work bringing those tens of thousands of vehicles to the Blanchardstown bypass quicker, or the M50 (even with the upgrade - nevermind that the N3-N4 section is last on the agenda!).

Seth Brundle

Why was there the sod turned yesterday when this information was already known? The excavation work on the site seems considerable enough having seen it on the news.
Was it just another chance for a photoshoot for the election before the brown stuff hit the fan?

Brian CivilEng

Zoney wrote:

- nevermind that the N3-N4 section is last on the agenda!).

The N3-N4 section will be starting within days, it's due to be completed early 2008...

Navan Junction

kbannon wrote:

Was it just another chance for a photoshoot for the election before the brown stuff hit the fan?

Could be.

Chronicle is plastered in stuff about sod turning. Stories about farmers not getting agreed compensation, Cullen leaving dignataries waiting an hour whilst he engaged in a debate by phone on local radio in Waterford, etc.

Big ad for Noel Dempsey and Johnny Brady saying 'Some talked about it, others tried to block it, We delivered it.'

However, the interesting thing is that the Chronicle quotes Martin Cullen saying yesterday that the M3 will be built now in two phases. Phase one will be Clonee to Lismullen..

I thought that strange until I just realised that... Lismullen is area of the site being sealed off..!

Now the whole Carrickmines mess escalated as a result from the road being built up to either side of the castle and the NRA then saying that there was no alternative route as the road was already built up either side of the castle.

This could turn into a complete disaster if it becomes a Carrickmines re-run - however I suspect that work will start on the Clonee Lismullin stage, and the rest will be forced through after the election, or earlier if the National Museum says go for.

I hope that valley does not become a lobster-pot (ie it goes in but can't find a way out) for for a cocked up project that makes Meath a laughing stock for generations

DerekP11

Without meaning any insult to Meath and its residents, it is already a cocked up county in terms of transport. Like its sister counties of Kildare, Wicklow and Louth, it seen huge population increases due to extensive housing development. However, unlike those other counties it had no rail connection and very poor road connections with Dublin. Kildare has the M7/N7 and a rail connection. Wicklow now has a dual carraigeway on the N11 and a rail service, while Louth also has the rail connection and now the M1. If you look at it in these terms, something went very wrong in Meath over the last 10 years.

It now looks like a very poor choice of destination for house buyers working in Dublin. But in the late 90s it was sold as the dream. Out of the so called dormer towns, Navan was perhaps the most problematic and continues to be so.

D'Peoples Voice

Zoney wrote:

This isn't a tale of conservationists vs. developers. It's just another chapter in the saga of government mismanagement and poor planning (or washing their hands of their management and responsibility role - not in Galway water of course).

Zoney, if are going to use the term Government, be clear about which government you are talking about.

Is it Central government who approved the financing of the road?
or is it Local government who decided on the route the road took!

Personally people should be looking at the public consultation stage and asking what went wrong, and if certain members of local government (Meath county council) should be forced to resign over this!
Far too many developments such as roads are built only to have people say afterwards, well they should have done this or that! After wasting so much tax payers money on archaeologists working on this site, people need to ask just why the hell did local government agree on this route. People forget that these archaeologists were working on this site for YEARS at taxpayers expense! :mad: If the people of Meath were forced to foot this bill, they did elect this local government after all, perhaps we might see a different set of councillors in Meath County Council next time out!:mad:

Xyndrix

I think both central government and local government are to blame in this sorry affair but clearly Meath County Council had a leading role seeing as they selected the route. One shouldn't really be surprised I suppose when you look at some of the pronouncements of the councillors. Take Tommy Reilly for example: he confidently predicted there was nothing to find along the route save a few "pots and pans". I wonder what he has to say for himself now. The same esteemed councillor recently dismissed the old rail alignment as not being of much use due to it having "only cattle, sheep and horses" along much of the route. He seems happy to support some fantasy route that will serve every town in south east Meath regardless of cost before it finally finds its way somehow to Navan. Of course, he and his fellow councillors should have ensured that population growth and development was channelled to settlements along the old alignment over the last 10 years. All they managed to do in fact was put a sewer pipe in its way.

I think Meath is just cursed basically. It's local representatives are a complete disgrace and it doesn't look like anything is going to change. The amazing thing is the population doesn't seem to be all that bothered and will probably just elect the same old faces at this election and the next local election. I guess as long as that goes on we're really only getting what we deserve as a county.

Zoney

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

Is it Central government who approved the financing of the road?
or is it Local government who decided on the route the road took!

Central govt. is ultimately responsible, regardless of what the local authority or the NRA or anyone else have been up to. There's far too much shirking of responsibility goes on with this government. It doesn't matter who's acting on the ground, the govt. need to make sure things are being done right even if they have someone else acting on their behalf.

Seth Brundle

Does anyone know who owns the land close to the Blundelstown interchange and if they could be considered vested interests to FF?

Victor

DerekP11 wrote:

Without meaning any insult to Meath and its residents, it is already a cocked up county in terms of transport. Like its sister counties of Kildare, Wicklow and Louth, it seen huge population increases due to extensive housing development. However, unlike those other counties it had no rail connection and very poor road connections with Dublin. Kildare has the M7/N7 and a rail connection. Wicklow now has a dual carraigeway on the N11 and a rail service, while Louth also has the rail connection and now the M1. If you look at it in these terms, something went very wrong in Meath over the last 10 years.

Au contraire, Meath will have the M1, N2, M3 & M4 and the Belfast, Navan and Sligo rail lines, but everyone will have to buy a car because there aren't enough trains.

Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government Dick Roche confirmed this evening that he had received a report that archaeologists working on the route have found evidence of a monument at Lismullin, Co Meath.

Where is Lismullin?

The pro-Tara group TaraWatch, which originally reported the site to the Keeper of Antiquities at the National Museum of Ireland yesterday, said that Mr Roche should reroute the M3 in order to avoid the monument.

Why them? Why didn't the contractor or site archaeologist report it?

Navan Junction wrote:

Now the whole Carrickmines mess escalated as a result from the road being built up to either side of the castle and the NRA then saying that there was no alternative route as the road was already built up either side of the castle.

Over course Carrickmines only delayed 200m of construction, not the entire SEM.

Navan Junction

Victor wrote:

Where is Lismullin?

Between the Hill of Tara and the Hill of Skryne, a mile short of the Blundlestown interchange which will be the Navan Sth Interchange

Victor wrote:

Why them? Why didn't the contractor or site archaeologist report it?

Good question. Aparently the NRA knew about it since January. The problem is that the route seem s to be a personal battle of wills now between local politicians and, well, anyone that else that might want it moved..

Give it a few weeks and it will be removed even though apparently it has already been given National Monument status.

The Minister only has to consult the National Museum, not take his recommendation - he all ready reccomended against that route.

The Minister can simply order a National Monuments removal without any appeals according to the legislation brought in a few years ago if it is in "the National Interests".

Victor wrote:

Over course Carrickmines only delayed 200m of construction, not the entire SEM.

Yep but that 200m caused murder, and did cause delays

At the end of the day all of this should have been avoided - I'd love a new road but the whole M3 saga was bound to be trouble from the start. And it's not even a particularly good route - for a start it's 2.5km longer than the existing N3 between Navan and Dunshaughlin.

By the way loads of ring forts etc are being cleared along the route - it's not just this particular find. The works will just recommence when Roche signs the order.

Xyndrix wrote:

Take Tommy Reilly......The same esteemed councillor recently dismissed the old rail alignment as not being of much use due to it having "only cattle, sheep and horses" along much of the route.

Are you sure he said that? When and where did he say that?

Victor

Navan Junction wrote:

Between the Hill of Tara and the Hill of Skryne, a mile short of the Blundlestown interchange which will be the Navan Sth Interchange

Ah, the "important" bit will be done then. :rolleyes:

Navan Junction

Tara 'henge' will be destroyed - claim
Tim O'Brien, Irish Times

Thu, May 03, 2007

Minister for the Environment Dick Roche has already issued draft directions that would allow for the destruction of the recently discovered "henge" along the route of the M3 in Co Meath, it was claimed yesterday.

The environmental group TaraWatch said Mr Roche had sent draft directions to the National Museum to preserve the henge "by record", a process that would facilitate photographs and written records being made before the henge is removed.

Under Section 14A of the National Monuments Act 2004, if a national monument is discovered, the Minister is required to consult the director of the National Museum before deciding on what action to take.

Mr Roche told The Irish Times yesterday that he was in consultation with the National Museum, but he declined to elaborate on the nature of that consultation. Asked if he had sent draft directions to the museum to preserve the monument by record, as claimed by TaraWatch, Mr Roche repeated that he was "in consultation with the National Museum" and referred to his department's previously issued comments on the discovery.

On Tuesday the department said: "The Minister has consulted with the director of the museum on the directions that would be most appropriate in this instance from the point of view of best archaeological practice. Directions will issue as soon as possible after the Minister receives the director's response.

"The Minister is advised that the surviving elements of the monument are extremely fragile, underlining the need for an early decision on how to proceed."

TaraWatch spokesman Vincent Salafia said the group had "well-placed sources within the National Museum" who were aware of draft directions that had been sent, which instructed that the monument be preserved by record.

Dr Mark Clinton, chairman of An Taisce's national monuments and antiquities committee, said: "The discovery of what could be called a temple, after the fashion of a comparable discovery at Emain Macha, seat of the kings of Ulster, is of obvious major significance. Such sites are extremely rare." He called for full scientific excavation to be followed by reconstruction.

Labour Party environment spokesman Éamon Gilmore said the issue could have been avoided if the Government had accepted a November 2004 proposal that the M3 be developed immediately in three sections, "and that the controversial section, running through the Skryne Valley, be rerouted".

Fine Gael transport spokeswoman Olivia Mitchell has said she was "stunned" to learn that "more than 500 archaeologists, hired at a cost of €30 million, managed to miss a four-acre historical site while excavating for the new M3 motorway".

© 2007 The Irish Times

Navan Junction

Navan Junction wrote:

Fine Gael transport spokeswoman Olivia Mitchell has said she was "stunned" to learn that "more than 500 archaeologists, hired at a cost of €30 million, managed to miss a four-acre historical site while excavating for the new M3 motorway".

My thoughts exactly

Ste.phen

I would hazard that it was found, they attempted to keep it quiet, and then someone shouted about it loudly enough, prompting the press release on Monday.

They're going to try and bulldoze it, most likely

Navan Junction

Meath Chronicle,Saturday May 5th 2007

Construction will take 39 months, says NRA

John Donohoe

CONSTRUCTION on the M3 motorway should take 39 months and be finished by 2010, the chief executive of the construction consortium building the motorway, Mr Finn Lyden, said on Monday.

He was speaking at the sod-turning ceremony by the Minister for Transport, Martin Cullen, on part of the route at Boyerstown, Navan, on Monday morning. It is the longest piece of single road infrastructure to be built in the State to date.

It is understood that initial construction work will concentrate on the section of the motorway from the end of the present Clonee by-pass to Lismullen, outside Navan, and that this will be the first piece of the road that will open to traffic.

The contractor working on the project is the Eurolink Consortium, made up of Cintra SA and SIAC, and the main engineer is M3 MeathConsult. Madrid-headquartered Cintra is a major international operator of toll roads and car parks and SIAC is a major Irish road construction group.

The same consortium delivered the N4 and N6 motorway in December 2005, 10 months ahead of schedule, Mr Lyden said. It was a 33-month, s320 million project.

Their investment in the M3 project was s575 million, and it would take longer.

Mr Lyden said the motorway construction would involve building 49 kilometres of motorway and dual carriageway, 10 kilometres of wide single carriageways, 15 kilometres of link roads, 3.5 kilometres of by-passes, 1.25 million tonnes of asphalt, four million cubic metres of infill, 61 bridges, 30 culverts, and two toll plazas. On opening in 2010, 30,000 cars a day would use the motorway.

The total Government investment in the project is s890 million. The project is being funded through private finance, the Government’s investment programme Transport 21 and the National Development Plan. The scheme will bypass Dunboyne, Dunshaughlin, Navan, Tara, Kells and other smaller communities in the area.

Monday’s sod-turning was attended by local politicians, Chamber of Commerce representatives, county council and NRA officials and representatives of the construction firms involved, as well as local clergy.

The Minister for Communications, Noel Dempsey, said it was a very proud day for him as a Meath man and as a Government minister. “It is a great day for Meath and indeed for the north-east,” Mr Dempsey said. “The building of the M3 will be a major step forward in the development of the county as a great place to live, work and visit. It will deliver places like Dunboyne, Dunshaughlin, Navan, Tara, Kells and other smaller communities back to the local people.”

Mr Dempsey added that it will be a huge boost to quality of life in these areas and for the people of Meath generally. “It will also play an important role in making the area much more attractive for businesses to set up here, thus providing increased employment in the county.”

On a personal basis, he said he had pushed very hard on behalf of the people of Meath for the project to get underway. “I highlighted the need for major national road infrastructure in this county and when I was Minister for the Environment I ensured that the National Roads Authority initiated the planning and design of this project to motorway status. I have consistently supported and sought to advance the project over the years and today is a dream come true for me to see the first sod turned on this important project.”

Minister of State Mary Wallace said the project, including the essential Dunshaughlin bypass, will be a major asset to commuters and also to residents living on the many roads being used as unofficial bypasses in the Skryne, Ratoath, Kilbride and Dunsany areas of the county.

“It is expected that the Clonee to Garlow Cross section, including the

Dunshaughlin bypass, will be completed and will be the first piece of the

road due to open,” Minister Wallace said, adding that it was a great day for the people who have suffered due to the delay in the road which has caused huge difficulty for commuters and for people living on the county roads east and west of the N3.

Deputy Johnny Brady said he was gratified that, despite objections, the road will now go ahead, and he was also satisfied that all of the objections were dealt with as comprehensively as possible. “I know that some commuters had concerns about whether it would proceed but it was always our intention to do all we could to make it happen,” Deputy Brady stated.

“The road will have a huge impact on many Meath towns and villages, bringing traffic away from communities making them safer and more pleasurable places in which to live. The M3 will also give a boost to commuters, particularly those who will have significantly reduced journey times and safer trips.”

However, the Campaign to Save Tara has condemned the sod-turning. “Given that Labour, the Green Party and Sinn Fein are in favour of reviewing the route and protecting the internationally significant area, it is unlikely the road will be built along its present proposed route,” Michael Canney of the campaign claimed.

He said that the road will do nothing to end the misery of Meath motorists and will actually greatly increase traffic volumes on the already grossly overcrowded M50.

“The local electorate is well aware that this motorway will actually hamper the creation of local jobs in Meath, the county with perhaps the greatest potential for a thriving heritage sector in the whole country,” Mr Canney said.

He said that Minister Cullen’s actions were another example of a cheap election stunt. “Even in its dying days, this Government continues to allow short-sighted profiteering masquerade as proper planning. The minister is well aware that there has been a number significant archaeological finds along the proposed route through the Tara/Skryne valley and that, if these finds are as important as reports suggest, construction cannot begin before the election.

“We are very confident that a new Government will move swiftly to instigate a review of the M3. This review will give adequate weight to heritage and environmental concerns.”

The campaign is engaged in an election campaign in both Meath constituencies. They are encouraging people to vote for the parties that commit to a post-election review, Mr Canney said.

The consultation process began in 2001 when a number of route options were proposed. The selected route, which passes the Hill of Tara on the Skryne side, was the subject of a Bord Pleanala oral hearing, which was followed by a number of legal challenges as a result of its proximity to Tara. The contract with the construction consortium was recently signed by the NRA.


© Meath Chronicle
& http://www.unison.ie/

Xyndrix

kbannon wrote:

Does anyone know who owns the land close to the Blundelstown interchange and if they could be considered vested interests to FF?

Interesting collection of articles to be found here on this issue.

Second article taken from Ireland on Sunday talks about the Blundelstown interchange.

Navan Junction wrote:

Are you sure he said that? When and where did he say that?

http://www.unison.ie/meath_chronicle/stories.php3?ca=38&si=1809925&issue_id=15489

Well, it's the consultants who are favouring an alternative route, but he seems to see nothing wrong with it. I certainly read it as dismissing the old route. I've always understood the old route was the most direct and least expensive way of delivering the railway to Navan. He's talking about a route east of Dunshaughlin and the other side of the M3. To my mind, this is nothing but messing for election purposes and complicating matters further.

Seth Brundle

Xyndrix wrote:

Interesting collection of articles to be found here on this issue.

Second article taken from Ireland on Sunday talks about the Blundelstown interchange.

Thanks for that - it reaffirms my thoughts on the chosen route and the determination of the government to keep it!

D'Peoples Voice

Zoney wrote:

Central govt. is ultimately responsible, regardless of what the local authority or the NRA or anyone else have been up to. There's far too much shirking of responsibility goes on with this government. It doesn't matter who's acting on the ground, the govt. need to make sure things are being done right even if they have someone else acting on their behalf.

You clearly have a bias towards certain political parties and are using this argument to criticise certain government parties. I'm guessing you're from rural Ireland because that's the way they seem to handle any argument.
If you were familiar with the promises being made by almost ALL the political parties in Meath, you would see that no political party from central government is to blame. They are simply saying that they agree with the idea of the motorway in principle, that is, the benefits outweight the costs.

Central government CANNOT chose the route, because it would be completely unfamiliar with the local area and have not the resources to hold public consultations with local people. That is why local people have a democratically elected government, to voice their wishes/concerns. Like Carrickmines and countless other projects in this country, local government have been found wanting. How do they get away with it, becos people like you say "Ah sure it's central government who are to blame and never ask for people's head from local government".
The fact is, people don't take local government seriously, a city councillor in my area who I elected only 2-3 years ago is now looking to get elected to central government. If she said before the local elections that she would be fecking off after 2-3 years, her votes may have been different. Do you think she has achieved all she promised at local level, not a chance! Yet she sees fit to up and leave and ask for votes to be a TD.
As with saw with Liam Lawlor and Noel Redmond, local government has been the cause of many of the country's problems, not central government(who are just the cause of 40% of the country's problems:D ) The thing is, as long as we have people like you Zoney in this country, that trend will continue!
We shouldn't play party politics with a project that is costing us millions of taxpayers money:mad:

Xyndrix

kbannon wrote:

Thanks for that - it reaffirms my thoughts on the chosen route and the determination of the government to keep it!

Yeah, it's the same old story. The road and interchange are only the start of it, Blundelstown is going to come under constant development pressure over the coming years and eventually they'll have a new suburb of Navan pressed right up against Tara. There seems to be no end to what you can get away with in this country (and especially in this county). I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that a Navan rail line will only be considered viable if there's a station at Blundelstown on the way to Navan. Seems a far-fetched and even ludicrous notion at the moment but once the interchange is built and it's become a "fact on the ground", such an idea probably won't seem so mad at all. It would certainly fit in with the desire to delay the railway and ignore (and indeed block) the route of the old alignment.


http://ireland.indymedia.org/article/77141

This story relates to a planning application for a recycling facility at the interchange. I've heard that this was really just a stepping stone towards getting some luxury houses built. It was rejected by both Meath County Council and An Bord Pleanála but you can imagine they'll keep pushing and pushing until there's some movement on it and gradually they'll get their way. If they can get away with putting that motorway where they're putting it, then anything is possible

Bards

full article including site maps etc can be found here http://www.nra.ie/News/DownloadableDocumentation/file,4680,en.pdf

Metrobest

Oh goodness, same old story with the conservation industry.. when there's no trees to hug, they turn to bits of stuff in the ground, hoping there is something in there that can hold up the project while the vast majority of citizens suffer in silence. Worse, the left-wing Irish Times gives them the oxygen of publicity...:rolleyes:

People often wonder, why do infrastructure projects in Ireland take so long and cost so much? Well the M3 pretty much encapsulates everything that's wrong with infrastructure planning in Ireland: planners going out of their way to accomodate the wishes of a tiny minority of nutcases intent on denying citizens access to quality road infrastructure.

Lonely Planet says the Hill or Tara looks "like a golf course" and doesn't exactly tell its readers to go out of their way to stare at this so-called "archaeological treasure". Truth is, Tara just doesn't deserve the media attention it gets.

Most people, Irish or foreign, just couldn't give a hoot about the Hill of Tara. What they want is a quality road network befitting one of the world's most successful economies.

Unless they discover a Newgrange or an Egyptian pyramid down there, I say let's get the machines rolling and the road built before the commuters of Meath slip into a coma waiting for it.

Seth Brundle

Metrobest wrote:

People often wonder, why do infrastructure projects in Ireland take so long and cost so much? Well the M3 pretty much encapsulates everything that's wrong with infrastructure planning in Ireland: planners going out of their way to accomodate the wishes of a tiny minority of nutcases intent on denying citizens access to quality road infrastructure.

Nobody is trying to deny access to "quality road infrastructure". They are proposing that the NRA choose an alternative route.

Metrobest wrote:

Lonely Planet says the Hill or Tara looks "like a golf course" and doesn't exactly tell its readers to go out of their way to stare at this so-called "archaeological treasure". Truth is, Tara just doesn't deserve the media attention it gets.

My wife recently bought the LP guide to Ireland and it is riddled with errors and misinformation. Please don't use this as your source of information.
Anyhow just because Tara doesn't deserve media attention is not an excuse to destroy it.

Metrobest wrote:

Most people, Irish or foreign, just couldn't give a hoot about the Hill of Tara. What they want is a quality road network befitting one of the world's most successful economies.

Your source? (hopefully not the LP guide!)
Anyhow as i already said, the campaigners are not trying to stop the development of the M3. They are trying to stop the development along the chosen rooute.

Metrobest wrote:

Unless they discover a Newgrange or an Egyptian pyramid down there, I say let's get the machines rolling and the road built before the commuters of Meath slip into a coma waiting for it.

Were do you then draw the line. This appears to be a real significant archaeological find. However, whilst it may not be as significant as Newgrange, what virtues would it need in order to be as significant?

Ste.phen

kbannon wrote:

Were do you then draw the line. This appears to be a real significant archaeological find. However, whilst it may not be as significant as Newgrange, what virtues would it need in order to be as significant?

I think the only thing that would satisfy him at this point is a 2001: A Space Odyssey style monolith, complete with sound.


The chosen route was poorly chosen, and among the reasons it was a poor choice was the likelihood of meeting a previously undiscovered and significant archeological find along the route. This has happened. Quelle surprise!

westtip

The truth is about this hill of tara thing with the M3 is they just wouldn't back down to all the opposition to it - probably because one of their mates had bought every bit of then "cheap" agricultural land alongside the areas where junctions are planned. They didn't learn from Carrickmines that a lot of people out there - call them green warriors, cranks, intelligentsia or whatever you want to call them are willing to kick up one mighty fuss and just won't go away. There was a compromise route available - but oh no this high and mighty administration had made their decision and there was no turning back - It's Wood Quay all over again, but people won't put up with it, and when they get thrown out on their a***es the decision will be reversed it will have cost the tax payer a fortune - and could have been avoided, and if it had the road to Navan would probably be nearing completion by now.Life is full of compromises and the alternative route was a compromise worth agreeing to in order to avoid all the aggravation this thing is causing. Let's face it this latest news is bad news for the government.

Seth Brundle

What is FG's stance on this, does anyone know?
Have they made any promises?

dowlingm

On the Slugger O'Toole website there are a number of posts about this. Olivia Mitchell wonders how 500 archaeologists missed this - well if the comments on those posts are anything to go by, there were probably 499 low paid labourers and 1 archaeologist.

Xyndrix

kbannon wrote:

What is FG's stance on this, does anyone know?
Have they made any promises?

Heard Kenny on local radio the other morning and the distinct impression I got from what he said is that recording the find is all that matters. Said that's what archaeologists he had spoken to in the past about such situations had stressed to him. So FG will destroy it as well, I'm afraid.

I guess he didn't want to incur the wrath of Meath's tortured commuting masses by associating himself with anything that might delay the road further. That's the thing: because this has dragged out so long and the traffic is in such a dire state, Meath's commuters just want the road built now at any price I reckon, no matter what they find down there. It's worked like a dream for the guys who stand to benefit from this route, they can just sit back and let commuter anger and pain ensure that the motorway is pushed through. Everybody's forgotten about who chose such a stupid route in the first place and why it was chosen.

Metrobest

What I do in relation to the M3 is to constantly remind everyone that the vast majority of Meath's citizens want this road to go ahead. What Meath families don't want is for this road to be delayed by an unelected conservation lobby who wish to reverse a planning decision that was made in full consultation with the public and took all facts into account.

Another fact the conservation lobby conveniently ignores is that the existing N3 sits nearer to the "sacred" hill than the new M3. Goodness knows how many archeological treasures were destroyed when that old road was built!

Whatever has been found underground recently, the one certainty is that it's been found only because the road was being built. The simple fact of the matter is that Ireland is a country with a lot of heritage, a lot of history.

As do other countries. Any one visiting Athens will be stunned at the bits and pieces that are displayed in the metro stations, treasures unearthed during construction of the system. Now if those treasures had been discovered in Dublin, the whole metro would have been called off and the conservationists would be on the front page of the Irish Times sitting in the half-built tunnels with candles and bowls of museli.

We have to weigh up what's crucial and important, and what is disposable. In my view, the fields around the hill of Tara just don't cut it as a signifcant conservation area. The UN certainly doesn't think so - otherwise the area would have been declared a world heritage site.

Newgrange, on the other hand, does have that "wow" factor and naturally nobody would plough a motorway through it.

Seth Brundle

Metrobest wrote:

What I do in relation to the M3 is to constantly remind everyone that the vast majority of Meath's citizens want this road to go ahead. What Meath families don't want is for this road to be delayed by an unelected conservation lobby who wish to reverse a planning decision that was made in full consultation with the public and took all facts into account.

Where is your source on the fact that the majority of meath citizens want it to go ahead? My wife works in Meath and the feedback she is getting is that they want a road and rail system serving the commuters but not at the heritage's expense.

Metrobest wrote:

Another fact the conservation lobby conveniently ignores is that the existing N3 sits nearer to the "sacred" hill than the new M3. Goodness knows how many archeological treasures were destroyed when that old road was built!

We should learn from the mistakes of others.
Does the fact that one road is there justify building another?

Metrobest wrote:

Whatever has been found underground recently, the one certainty is that it's been found only because the road was being built. The simple fact of the matter is that Ireland is a country with a lot of heritage, a lot of history.

What has that got to do with it? You could also argue that if bundles of cash were given towards archaeological surveys then we may find loads moe stuff. Just because we may have never found this does not mean that it is open season to destroy our new found heritage items.
Anyhow, there were predictions of significant finds along this route. This was ignored!

Metrobest wrote:

As do other countries. Any one visiting Athens will be stunned at the bits and pieces that are displayed in the metro stations, treasures unearthed during construction of the system. Now if those treasures had been discovered in Dublin, the whole metro would have been called off and the conservationists would be on the front page of the Irish Times sitting in the half-built tunnels with candles and bowls of museli.

Is this still allowed in Greece or any other EU country? Martin Cullen (spit) in 2004 basically sgned away our heritage in favour of developers.
Still we have a habit in this country of vandalising significant archaeological finds (Wood Quay!).

Metrobest wrote:

We have to weigh up what's crucial and important, and what is disposable. In my view, the fields around the hill of Tara just don't cut it as a signifcant conservation area. The UN certainly doesn't think so - otherwise the area would have been declared a world heritage site.

Are you an expert or just voicing your own opinion?
Nomination for a world Heritage Site has to come from the government of the country of the site so that fupps up that thoery! As for what the UN think of the site - have you a source on what their opinion is?

Metrobest wrote:

Newgrange, on the other hand, does have that "wow" factor and naturally nobody would plough a motorway through it.

Newgrange wasn't found in the state that it is in. It had been restored in the 60s and 70s. How many people back then were voicing opinions like your opinion on Tara?

Navan Junction

Metrobest wrote:

The UN certainly doesn't think so - otherwise the area would have been declared a world heritage site.

The way that works is that the relevant government has to nominate the site to the UN. The UN don't nominate the sites for Ireland - the Irish government does.

Metrobest, the problem with the 'is it or is it not the hill' debate is that the road skirts around the bottom of the hill on the northerly section.

The 'going through the hill' line is every bit as false as the claim that the M3 'is further away from the hill than the existing N3' - it doesn't go through the hill but it is within feet of the hill on the northerly part.

To some extent that is all irrelevant though - it is a daft route full stop - it should have gone through the Skane valley and serviced Trim as well.

I have a good topographical illustration of Meath which I'll scan in and post if I remember to do it later

Navan Junction

Metrobest wrote:

Goodness knows how many archeological treasures were destroyed when that old road was built!

Ironically the original Navan Dublin road is the road on the hill of Tara itself where the coffee shop and book shop are.

Which if I remember is how the 1798 men ended up there for the battle of Tara

Xyndrix

Metrobest wrote:

Another fact the conservation lobby conveniently ignores is that the existing N3 sits nearer to the "sacred" hill than the new M3. Goodness knows how many archeological treasures were destroyed when that old road was built!

I notice in all your responses here you just repeat the same line, just ranting about sandal-wearing, museli-eating blah blah blah. You've completely failed to address the issue of why the road takes such a ridiculous route. Have you ever actually looked at a map of it? Do you not notice something funny about the bit from Dunshaughlin to Navan? Have you read any of the links I posted detailing the political links of the landowners along the route and particularly at the Blundelstown interchange.

You see it's not just about the road. It's the interchange and the pressures for the land around there to be developed in the future. And there's no massive interchange on the existing N3 so it doesn't have the same visual impact even if it is somewhat nearer at certain places. This is a fact that the NRA conveniently ignores when it trots out that tired old line.

Metrobest

Xyn, like you I'm all in favour of development controls around the area where the M3 will run near Tara's hill. No KFCs, Ikeas or Burger Kings etc.

However, one thing the motorway will do is actually increase the amount of people visiting the area, and some facility is likely to be required to cater to that. Ideally something will be done along the lines of Newgrange, where the visitor facilities are located at a tasteful distance from the site itself.

At the end of the day, it comes down to how much value the Irish people place on the Hill of Tara as a significant heritage site. All the evidence is that, while people do recognise that Tara has some importance in understanding what medieval life was like in Ireland, they also believe that the needs of a 21st century economy take precedence. Surveys have shown that 90% of those polled favoured the M3 route as it stands - despite the fact that a high number of that 90% mistakenly believed the road will go over the Hill!

Remember, at one time all roads led to Tara! And if the High Kings had had the know how to built motorways, I'd say it's a safe bet they'd have plastered a six lane item straight over the hill, and planted a sharp spear into anyone who dissented.

The human heritage we're creating right now, thanks to the delays, is a heritage of stress and misery for thousands of Meath commuters. It needn't be so. Just get on with building the road, and if anything exciting shows up, do an Athens and have the monuments lined along the highway or put on display in a new museum to give people something intesting to look at, instead of what the world's most acclaimed guide book publisher, Lonely Planet, describes as a "golf course"!

Seth Brundle

Metrobest wrote:

Xyn, like you I'm all in favour of development controls around the area where the M3 will run near Tara's hill. No KFCs, Ikeas or Burger Kings etc.

I'm not sure if you quite get the concept of development control then.

Metrobest wrote:

However, one thing the motorway will do is actually increase the amount of people visiting the area, and some facility is likely to be required to cater to that. Ideally something will be done along the lines of Newgrange, where the visitor facilities are located at a tasteful distance from the site itself.

What is your source on visitor numbers? Assuming you are correct, then why have a motorway beside the antiquity when the facilities will be 'a tasteful distance from the site'?

Metrobest wrote:

At the end of the day, it comes down to how much value the Irish people place on the Hill of Tara as a significant heritage site. All the evidence is that, while people do recognise that Tara has some importance in understanding what medieval life was like in Ireland, they also believe that the needs of a 21st century economy take precedence. Surveys have shown that 90% of those polled favoured the M3 route as it stands - despite the fact that a high number of that 90% mistakenly believed the road will go over the Hill!

Again, where is this evidence?
I'm reminded of Fr. Dougal now...

Metrobest wrote:

Remember, at one time all roads led to Tara! And if the High Kings had had the know how to built motorways, I'd say it's a safe bet they'd have plastered a six lane item straight over the hill, and planted a sharp spear into anyone who dissented.

FFS this is really getting silly!

Metrobest wrote:

The human heritage we're creating right now, thanks to the delays, is a heritage of stress and misery for thousands of Meath commuters. It needn't be so. Just get on with building the road, and if anything exciting shows up, do an Athens and have the monuments lined along the highway or put on display in a new museum to give people something intesting to look at, instead of what the world's most acclaimed guide book publisher, Lonely Planet, describes as a "golf course"!

I said it yesterday and I'll say it again...

kbannon wrote:

My wife recently bought the LP guide to Ireland and it is riddled with errors and misinformation. Please don't use this as your source of information.

spacetweek

I'm a bit confused. I thought the whole point of concentrating on Clonee to Lismullen at first was so they could examine the discovered site and leave the option open to reroute out of the valley.

But according to the map, Clonee to Lismullen includes the valley section! So the road will still go through the valley.

In my opinion the Kells-Navan and Clonee-Dunshaughlin sections should be advanced immediately with new proposals studied for the Navan-Dunshaughlin section. This section of the N3 doesn't have any major towns along it, so it should be pretty free-flowing anyway - the town bypasses are the most important parts.

Victor

spacetweek wrote:

In my opinion the Kells-Navan and Clonee-Dunshaughlin sections should be advanced immediately with new proposals studied for the Navan-Dunshaughlin section. This section of the N3 doesn't have any major towns along it, so it should be pretty free-flowing anyway - the town bypasses are the most important parts.

Ah, but theres an election coming and you never know who will get in!

Maybe its my eyes, but isn't there a hint of circular object between the 4 red lines? anyone got a better photo of the area?

Ste.phen

Victor, I think that green circle is Rath Lugh, it's overgrown with forest, but it's noticeable from other photos.

D'Peoples Voice

Xyndrix wrote:

Heard Kenny on local radio the other morning and the distinct impression I got from what he said is that .......FG will destroy it as well.....

As I said everyone in central Government(except the Greens) will go ahead with the route suggested by Local Government, why because

Meath County Council undertook an extensive consultation process over a three year period. While consultation is, of course, required under planning law, Meath County Council went a great deal further than is legally required.
The project team wanted to ensure that everyone who might be impacted in any way by the new road; or anyone who had a view on the road, whether or not they might personally be impacted, would have the chance to have their voice heard. The consultation process was advertised extensively and was also conducted locally in Co Meath. Over 4,000 people visited public consultation meetings at a variety of venues and their inputs were recorded and considered.

http://www.nra.ie/Archaeology/DownloadableDocuments/d1413.PDF
Central Government CANNOT now chose an alternative route to local government because that would be undemocratic, local government chose this route after taking into account the views of local people!

BrianD

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

As I said everyone in central Government(except the Greens) will go ahead with the route suggested by Local Government, why because


http://www.nra.ie/Archaeology/DownloadableDocuments/d1413.PDF
Central Government CANNOT now chose an alternative route to local government because that would be undemocratic, local government chose this route after taking into account the views of local people!

Of course they can! Why would it be undemocratic. It was a consultation that was seriously flawed and not a referendum. In Dun Laoghaire there was a public consulation on the building for the pier and the council decided on the option that was not the 'popular' choice. Furthermore the route of the N3 is a national decision and not a county one.

I recall seeing the consultation at the time. Most people would only have been looking at the part of the route that effected them plus it was very evident that everybody knew that route would be picked for them regardless of their submissions.

The public consultation is only a whitewash, a tip of the hat to the locals while national infrastructure is being driven through their area.

Ps. Read P.17 of the PDF. I bet they didn't think that they would find another historic site on the route.

mike65

Acording to the Sunday Times Dick Roche knew about the latest discovery 2 weeks before Martin Cullen turned the sod on the current section. Cullen was'nt told!

Mike.

Gaspode

Roll on this M3, I cant wait. I couldnt give two hoots about Tara - lets face it, its only a field with some bumps on it. Its not like its somewhere worth a visit, without doubt the most dispaaointing and over-hyped national monument we have.
There is hardly a field in this country that wont turn up some archeological find, so at some stage we're just going to have to get over the fact that we're building roads over some heap of crap our forefathers let go to rack and ruin. They certainly didnt shed and do-gooder tears when they were ripping down our forests.

mackerski

Igy wrote:

Victor, I think that green circle is Rath Lugh, it's overgrown with forest, but it's noticeable from other photos.

Hang about, your linked image mentions something about Opus Dei 200m to the right of the picture. I can suddenly see a tiny deviation (about 200m) that should solve the problem and make (almost) everyone happy

Victor

Igy wrote:

Victor, I think that green circle is Rath Lugh, it's overgrown with forest, but it's noticeable from other photos.

No, Rath Lugh would appear to be to the right of the right hand red lines.

_Kaiser_

deswalsh wrote:

Roll on this M3, I cant wait. I couldnt give two hoots about Tara - lets face it, its only a field with some bumps on it. Its not like its somewhere worth a visit, without doubt the most dispaaointing and over-hyped national monument we have.
There is hardly a field in this country that wont turn up some archeological find, so at some stage we're just going to have to get over the fact that we're building roads over some heap of crap our forefathers let go to rack and ruin. They certainly didnt shed and do-gooder tears when they were ripping down our forests.

Have to agree here. Heritage is all well and good, but not at the cost of progressing a road that is badly needed in Meath. Of course, the only fear is that with two tolls on it, many people will avoid it - just like the M4.

At that point of course we'll have all these eco-warriors telling us we destroyed Tara for nothing.

The road should go ahead as planned (it's been delayed long enough at this stage) and ideally without the tolls - but then that's not likely to happen

Navan Junction

Kaiser2000 wrote:

At that point of course we'll have all these eco-warriors telling us we destroyed Tara for nothing.

Eco-warriors...:rolleyes: Oh Jayz, you can be uneasy about something like the M3 route without being an eco warrior.

And in fairness, I think everyone in Meath wants the new road but there are many that are uncomfortable with it's route.

So you have people that are torn between wanting to see it moved and not wanting to delay it a second further..

Realistically, it should have been built by now. It's a collosal balls up that work hasn't even commenced.

Remember, it went through the planning process at about the same time as the new N2 did...........................

Zoney

Actually it is a problem that the road is so desperately needed in Meath. It betrays the complete lack of infrastructure to support the ill-planned and unplanned development and commuting patterns. If you think the M3 will be a panacea, you'll be quite disappointed. Even with the M50 upgrade, road upgrades aren't even keeping pace with traffic growth. I'm not suggesting we don't build roads, but they shouldn't just be chasing existing patterns; but rather planned cohesively in conjunction with planning of housing, industry and public transport.

Of course that would require our politicians not to have the same friends, and a greater level of competence and interest in getting things done. There's little excuse for the current lot with the resources they had.

I really think the M3 will just be a monument to the disasterous way this country is being run.