M3 Clonee-Kells route selection and archaelogical info

Seth Brundle

IMO if the preferred route of the 'eco warriors' was chosen then the road would be finished long before a route going through Tara.
As for the reference 'eco warrior' - I am certainly not an eco warrior but I do feel strongly against the intentional destruction of one of our finest national antiquities for corporate greed. This road is not being built to serve the commuters, tourists or anyone else except FF friends.

Navan Junction

Zoney wrote:

I really think the M3 will just be a monument to the disasterous way this country is being run.

Zoney, I think the project is already a monument to the disasterous way this country is being run.

But the scary thing is that it isn't just FF that are contributing to the siuation - FG aren't/weren't in favour of an alternative route either and even though Labour are, just look at Phoenix Magazine this week to see what their Meath East election candidate has been doing as a "Planning Consultant" in conjunction with his county councillor job.

I had high hopes that his background in transport would bring some sense to planning in Meath a few years ago.

Not anymore - the M3 route mess is just the top of the iceberg when it comes to planning up here, and no party is making any attempt to develop a long-term transport or land-use stategy for the county.

Xyndrix

You know it would be nice if the people who come on here to rubbish concerns about heritage and casually dismiss the whole thing as mischief-making by 'eco-warriors' would at least take some time in their responses to comment on the route itself and the issues raised over the political connections of landowners in the Tara-Skryne valley. What's your opinion on the suitability of the route? Do you honestly think that's the best way to get to Navan from Dunshaughlin? Do you really think passing that close to Tara was a smart move, likely to go through without even the slightest objection? What's your views on the interchange at Blundelstown? Are you completely comfortable with the potential for urban sprawl right up against Tara? I know you obviously have contempt for Tara itself, but think about the effect on tourism if it's ruined, you know the local economy, jobs, money? Since that's the only thing that counts clearly, lets think about it in those terms too.

Metrobest

I know you obviously have contempt for Tara itself, but think about the effect on tourism if it's ruined, you know the local economy, jobs, money?

Let's get some plain facts on the table here.

Local economy and jobs is contingent on modern infrastructure being in place and that's what the M3 is all about. It's about improving the lives of working families in Co Meath and it's about letting goods and services move faster, which is good for business.

Tourism levels also generally rise when good road infrastructure is in place, as many tourists choose to hire cars and obviously would take motorways where possible. Tourists attractions located close to motorways generally experience higher visitorship levels than those located a long way from good roads. Accessibility is key.

What is your source on visitor numbers?

I have none. However, we shall see in years to come if visitor numbers increase. Face it, Tara's hardly been a crowd-magnet for Irish and international visitors over the years so the only way is up!

The picture of the site posted upthread confirms the description of the landscape as similar to a "golf course" as the world famous guidebook Lonely Planet rather cruelly put it. I honestly feel it's very insular of Irish people to engage in all this navel gazing about what is essentially a very bland piece of landscape with some pleasingly insignificant archaeology lurking somewhere beneath, just as it does in every field in the country.

Kbannon, surely you can you imagine the laughter that would spontaneously erupt at the office of UN World Heritage Sites if the Irish government sent in such a picture as evidence that Tara deserve "world" heritage listing?

And if it's not dubious claims of national heritage, there's always a rare snail, rubble of a castle or glen of trees, which tiny minorites of citizens enjoy seizing upon to delay the crucial national infrastructure most citizens need and want.

I'm already primed to expect a bunch of treehuggers to descend on Stephen's Green when the nationally-vital rail staions are about to be built there.

Xyndrix

Metrobest, can you just answer me one thing: do you really think they chose a good route for this section of the M3? In any other country, the only reason you'd see such a marked deviation in a motorway would be to avoid such an archaeologically rich and important heritage site. In Ireland, the deviation is specifically so that you can add distance to your journey and run right into the middle of it. Do you not think there's something wrong with this?

Seth Brundle

Metrobest wrote:

Local economy and jobs is contingent on modern infrastructure being in place and that's what the M3 is all about. It's about improving the lives of working families in Co Meath and it's about letting goods and services move faster, which is good for business.

I don't think anyone is opposed to an M3. People are opposed to the current route. In fact after delays, etc. it will probably be quicker to have build the alternative route.

Metrobest wrote:

Tourism levels also generally rise when good road infrastructure is in place, as many tourists choose to hire cars and obviously would take motorways where possible. Tourists attractions located close to motorways generally experience higher visitorship levels than those located a long way from good roads. Accessibility is key.

Source?

Metrobest wrote:

I have none. However, we shall see in years to come if visitor numbers increase. Face it, Tara's hardly been a crowd-magnet for Irish and international visitors over the years so the only way is up!

I can see it now...
tourist:why is this county called the Royal county?
navan man: because it was the domain of the Celtic High Kings in ancient times
tourist: golly gee thats great. where is it now?
navan man: under that there motorway!

Metrobest wrote:

Kbannon, surely you can you imagine the laughter that would spontaneously erupt at the office of UN World Heritage Sites if the Irish government sent in such a picture as evidence that Tara deserve "world" heritage listing?

Yes I can. Just like they would have laughed had we submitted photos of Newgrange before it was restored. We would have been a laughing stock - wouldn't we?

Metrobest wrote:

And if it's not dubious claims of national heritage, there's always a rare snail, rubble of a castle or glen of trees, which tiny minorites of citizens enjoy seizing upon to delay the crucial national infrastructure most citizens need and want.

The snail, rubble or whatever, does not indicate dubious claims. If the snail was a dubious claim then why were the NRA forced to redesign the road?
In all fairness, if the planning process was open and transparent and not biased with political input then things may be different.

Victor

Metrobest wrote:

Local economy and jobs is contingent on modern infrastructure being in place and that's what the M3 is all about. It's about improving the lives of working families in Co Meath and it's about letting goods and services move faster, which is good for business.

Then why take a longer route?

Then why prioritise the Dunshaughlin-Navan section (little time gain) over the Navan Bypass (substantial time gain)?

Tourism levels also generally rise when good road infrastructure is in place, as many tourists choose to hire cars and obviously would take motorways where possible. Tourists attractions located close to motorways generally experience higher visitorship levels than those located a long way from good roads. Accessibility is key.

So where are the nearest motorways to the Cliffs of Moher and the Ring of Kerry?

The picture of the site posted upthread confirms the description of the landscape as similar to a "golf course" as the world famous guidebook Lonely Planet rather cruelly put it.

And Rome, Athens, Jeruselum and Mecca look "just like cities".

And if it's not dubious claims of national heritage, there's always a rare snail, rubble of a castle or glen of trees, which tiny minorites of citizens enjoy seizing upon to delay the crucial national infrastructure most citizens need and want.

SO its a matter of whats expedient over whats right? Isn't that the traditional FF way?

I'm already primed to expect a bunch of treehuggers to descend on Stephen's Green when the nationally-vital rail staions are about to be built there.

The suggstion by one source in the RPA that half of St. Stephen's Green be excavated is the wrong way to go about things. Hence, everyone else's suggestion that Metro North be carried further south.

"But why plant an oak tree - it will take 200 years to mature."

"Well, you had better plant it this morning then."

Navan Junction

Just been looking at some of the diagrams of where the 'henge' on the M3 route is - it is literally beside the site of the huge interchange at Blundlestown (Navan sth interchange beside the Tara na Rí pub)..

You can see that area clearly from the road.



I think because of the geography the choice is simple either they bull-doze it or they don't - it is already running down a slope..

Xyndrix

Navan Junction wrote:

I think because of the geography the choice is simple either they bull-doze it or they don't - it is already running down a slope..

With the decision to complete the road in two stages with stage one going right up beside the henge it appears they're leaving themselves with no option but to bulldoze it. It's clear there's only one option favoured; if they really were considering preserving it then stage one would finish with the Dunshaughlin bypass. Of course, that section should have been built years ago but this government insisted on an "all or nothing" approach to force the controversial section through. Alas, as you correctly pointed out, FG proved no better here either. You couldn't put a hair between the positions of FG and FF on this issue. Both major parties seem absolutely devoted to this particular choice of route no matter what happens.

Seth Brundle

Im just after reading in todays motors supplement in the IT that the NRA is proposing (eventually) to develop service areas abut 60km from dublin on several of the major routes - including one at Blundlestown!

Navan Junction

Tim O'Brien, Irish Times

Wed, May 16, 2007

How long does it take to open a coffee shop? Or build a petrol station? A year? More? Well considerably more than that, if the State's proposed motorway service areas are anything to go by. According to the State's e-tendering website last week, the Government, after years of planning for 12 service areas and even identifying likely locations, is now ready to provide just three rest stops with food, lavatories, Garda areas and petrol sales.

The notice also added: "All such elements of work set out above are approximate only and may be reduced or added to . . ."

The then minister for transport Seamus Brennan had set himself against the development of motorway service areas on the grounds that towns and villages which were being bypassed would lose the custom from passing trade. Things became plain silly when elaborate devices were promised at the hearing into the toll arrangements for the N4 motorway. Here the National Roads Authority (NRA) revealed that the plan was to allow motorists to pay the toll heading west, then leave the motorway and visit Enfield Co Meath, and return to the motorway without paying a second toll. But only if they completed their rest stop within a prescribed period.

Next, Minister for Transport Martin Cullen promised to consider the introduction of service areas. But the NRA decreed in 2004 that the service areas should not be located on the "mainline" carriageways, largely for safety reasons.

By 2005 Mr Cullen said the benefits of bypassing smaller towns would be lost if motorists and hauliers were forced back into them for fuel and lavatory facilities. He hoped the NRA would have a change of vision - which it duly had.If the motorway service areas were off the main carriageways, then the motorway junctions would become out-of-town shopping areas, it reasoned.

Better to have the motorway service areas on the main carriageways and put in safety measures (like every other European country), it decreed. So last June the authority said it was seeking expressions of interest from those in the private sector interested in providing the motorway service areas. It identified 12 locations along the existing motorway network but refused to reveal where they were.

In September last year the authority announced - roughly - the location of the 12 areas and said it was "close to issuing a call for property developers to build the authority's first motorway service areas".

Locations which are about 60km from Dublin included the Arklow bypass on the N11; north of Carlow on the proposed M9; the Monasterevin bypass on the M7; Kinnegad on the M6 and Blundlestown on the proposed M3.

And then on May 1st, 2007, the NRA announced "Tranche 1 service areas on the national roads network" on the e-tendering website.

The notice details how the authority "may include rest areas" and "further details will be provided to participants at the next stage of the competition".

It also includes complex wording to the effect that the contract is intended to comprise "in particular, but without limitation" construction of facilities for motorists and their passengers.However it reiterates the point that any decision will be at the authority's "absolute discretion".

It seems like it will be some time yet before we'll be fed and watered on our motorways.

© 2007 The Irish Times

Xyndrix

Yeah, I'm not surprised. The only real reason that interchange is there is to open up land for development. There's nothing to be gained from routing it through there otherwise. Going the shortest possible route through the Skane valley probably wouldn't even have needed another interchange as it wouldn't cross any major road on the way to Navan.

I did some searching on Google to learn more about the NRA board. It appears from this link that up to 6 were appointed by Noel Dempsey in 2002 as Minster for the Environment and another 2 by Cullen as Minister for Transport in 2005. Now, I'm sorry, but I've absolutely no faith in the judgements of a board that includes so many appointed by those two voting machine muppets.

On this subject, here's an interesting story that also gives some details on one such appointment.

I understand this story rumbles on. There were some recent articles in the Meath Chronicle about it but I can't access them. Unison have changed their site and the links are broken. There is a little about it here and here.

Regardless of what one makes of this, it certainly highlights the way these appointments are made with business and family relationships all too apparent.

Gonzo

so whats the latest craic with the M3, has the worked which started 2 weeks ago been stopped again?

Navan Junction

Gonzo wrote:

so whats the latest craic with the M3, has the worked which started 2 weeks ago been stopped again?

I don't think it ever started, but Martin Cullen said it would be built in 2 stages.

The first stage would be Clonee right up to that new site they discovered (1000m short of the Blundlestown interchange), and the second from that site to Kells.

I don't think any work has started, and I haven't seen any....

The only hold up at the moment is the site at Lismullin so they should at least be able to work on the Clonee to Dunshaughlin section, but that was ruled out in the past

Seth Brundle

What is the story about service/rest areas in terms of planning and zoning? Presumably the land would require a change in their zoning.
Floodgates opening?

Gonzo

What about North of Clonee just after the Rathoath Junction there seems to be 3km of roadworks there, is that part of the M3 works?

Navan Junction

No. That is spoil from the M50 upgrade, some of which will be used on the M3.

Interesting to note that the Pace park on ride site on the Dunboyne side of the N3 is starting to be used for M3 construction material as well..

D'Peoples Voice

Something weird I've noticed in recent days is the Scheme Activity on the NRA website.
Now anytime a project has started they are reasonably quick to update this page, but neither the M3 nor the latest stage of the N6(Ballinasloe) have been put up on the website yet.
http://www.nra.ie/RoadSchemeActivity/SchemeActivity-2007/#d.en.1230

So you're thinking, well they probably didn't get around to updating the webpage. BUT, the part of the N6 completed TODAY (N6 Kinnegad/Athlone Phase 1 (Kinnegad/Kilbeggan)) has been updated on the Road Activity list, so clearly someone is ACTIVELY updated the website.
Could it be possible that the M3 really HASN'T begun but that the minister advertised it has before the election for votes. I don't know but it is weird!

Xyndrix

kbannon wrote:

What is the story about service/rest areas in terms of planning and zoning? Presumably the land would require a change in their zoning.
Floodgates opening?

I'm not an expert on the planning and zoning system but from what I can gather there's nothing to stop you applying for planning permission for anything really regardless of the zoning. It's just that in most cases if it's not zoned for that particular use then planning is very unlikely to be granted. If planning is granted then that may automatically change the zoning of the land. It seems logical that it would, but again I'm not sure of the precise details surrounding this.

In any case, the idea seems to be that if you can get land 'upgraded' from plain old agricultural to something industrial or commercial then it's that much easier to get residential etc. One thing's for sure, the landowners will use every trick to get their money's worth out of this. There will be constant pressure to develop the area once the interchange is there. Like I pointed out in a previous post, there already was a planning application for a recycling centre and that's before construction of the interchange has even begun. Maybe this urban sprawl nightmare right up against Tara won't come to pass, but it's very hard to be optimistic when you look at the way planning is carried out in this country.

The planning department in Meath is in a mess anyway with an incredibly high turnover in staff and some other things I've heard don't inspire confidence in what's going on there either. If anyone really cares about preserving Tara then they really don't want an interchange right up beside it. It's bad enough the road needlessly ripping through the valley and the impact of the interchange itself, but the potential for additional development is very real and it will be a constant struggle to try and stop it.

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

Could it be possible that the M3 really HASN'T begun but that the minister advertised it has before the election for votes. I don't know but it is weird!

Sounds about right. They wanted a sod-turning ceremony so that they could then claim they've 'delivered it'. As if that wasn't bad enough, there was a FF ad in the Meath Chronicle last week with Dempsey and his running mate not only claiming credit for the stalled M3 but posing with Bertie under a bridge (love to know what bridge that was, Dunsany perhaps? with the sewer manhole under it ) to claim they'd deliver the rail link. What a joke! Of course, it doesn't matter as Dempsey is widely believed to top the poll again and Brady his fellow deputy will most likely be returned again as well. Meath people just love FF, no matter how many things they cock up.

Navan Junction

Xyndrix wrote:

posing with Bertie under a bridge (love to know what bridge that was

Dunboyne station bridge - Seán Boylan's land.


Some very disturbing aerial photos of the M3 route near Tara at this link - scroll up the page about six or seven pictures

It looks really terrible - the NRA had said that they had chosen the route going around historic remains..

But the aerial photos look like the route was picked to go straight through site after site, which I'm sure was not the intention, but it looks disasterous..

I am genuinely gob-smacked - I can't believe that all of the sites in those photos are so close to each other..

Chris_533976

The NRA have screwed up bigtime here. They didnt survey the route properly and bringing the route close to the Hill of Tara and to put a dumbell interchange there was just stupid, no matter what way you look at it. Yes, it would cost more to reroute it.... but I think it would be worth it to save all this muck going on. Its going to take YEARS to build this road with protesters and legal stuff and constant finds.

And then the NRA have the idiocy to propose sending the Macroom bypass through castle grounds.

We need roads, but we also need people who can put these roads in a sane place.

D'Peoples Voice

Chris_533976 wrote:

And then the NRA have the idiocy to propose sending the Macroom bypass through castle grounds.

Let me guess, Cork county council had no part in this route?
You remind me of someone I know who refuses to accept that Mayo county Council granted planning permission for Gas terminal Bellanaboy. We must remember we actually get to vote in two sets of muppets!
http://www.corkcoco.ie/co/web/Cork%20County%20Council/Departments/Divisional%20Services/Roads/About%20Roads

Cork County Council is the designated Road Authority for Cork County. Its rights and obligations in this regard are set out in the Roads Act, 1993. The Council is responsible for the maintenance, construction and safety of the public road network in the County. Its role also involves the planning, design and development of 500km of national roads and 11,582km of non-national roads.

Chris_533976

Yeah I know, Cork COCO did have something to do with it. Its an overall problem... but in any case whoever looked at the OS map, saw the little square red dot with "Castle" written next to it and decided "Lets build a road there" is a steaming great idiot.

Victor

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

Something weird I've noticed in recent days is the Scheme Activity on the NRA website.

BUT, the part of the N6 completed TODAY (N6 Kinnegad/Athlone Phase 1 (Kinnegad/Kilbeggan)) has been updated on the Road Activity list, so clearly someone is ACTIVELY updated the website.

www.nra.ie has been very hit and miss over the last few months, I suspect because they have lost staff through decentralisation and the formation of the RSA.

Xyndrix wrote:

I'm not an expert on the planning and zoning system but from what I can gather there's nothing to stop you applying for planning permission for anything really regardless of the zoning. It's just that in most cases if it's not zoned for that particular use then planning is very unlikely to be granted. If planning is granted then that may automatically change the zoning of the land. It seems logical that it would, but again I'm not sure of the precise details surrounding this.

Potentially it can be rezoned in a variation of the county development plan (has the new one been formally adopted) or they can get a material contravention (remember them?) or they go for a land use that is 'open for consideration'.

Bards

Sorry if it has been reported before (I had a brief check and couldn't find any)

Photo's of Lismullin can be found here http://www.nra.ie/News/DownloadableDocumentation/file,4696,en.pdf

D'Peoples Voice

Victor wrote:

www.nra.ie has been very hit and miss over the last few months, I suspect because they have lost staff through decentralisation and the formation of the RSA.

Indeed, the NRA now have included the M3 on their website
http://www.nra.ie/RoadSchemeActivity/SchemeMaps/file,4705,en.pdf

D'Peoples Voice

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0615/m3.html
Gormley to review M3-Tara decision
Friday, 15 June 2007 07:39

The Minister for the Environment, John Gormley, is expected to review a decision taken by his predecessor to allow the M3 motorway go over a recently discovered archaeologoical site.

The Green Party's Dan Boyle said Dick Roche's decision to sign an order for the destruction of the prehistoric site at Lismullen near Tara, following an archaelogical investigation, was something his party was not happy with.

One of the final decisions taken by Dick Roche as Minister was to sign an order which will result in the remains at Lismullen being investigated by a team of archaeologists, and then built over.

On Prime Time last night, Dan Boyle said he hoped the new Environment Minister would examine the matter when he goes to the Custom House this morning.

If the decision stands, work on the M3 at Lismullen will not resume for some time until the archaeological work is complete.

Work on other parts of the motorway will continue as normal.

D'Peoples Voice

How many more sites will they find!
Dunshaughlin to Cavan via Trim looks to have a better route for the road all right!

Campaigners say new archaeological find lying in path of M3 works
23/06/2007

The new Minister for the Environment, John Gormley, is being asked to stop work on the M3 motorway after a new archaeological find.

The TaraWatch group, which is campaigning for the motorway to be re-routed, says the underground stone structures, which are located near another archaeological site, are a significant find.

"Its further evidence for what we have been saying all along about this valley - its just full of archaeological wonders," said member Laura Grealish.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhkfgbkfeymh/

D'Peoples Voice

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhmhcweysnql/

Cuffe welcomes EU's court action on Tara

The Green Party's law reform spokesperson Ciarán Cuffe has welcomed the European Commission's decision to clarify the legal implications of the previous government's decision to construct the M3 motorway near the Hill of Tara.

Deputy Cuffe said: "I welcome consideration of these issues by the European Court of Justice (ECJ). The Commission is raising points of great importance for EU environmental law and heritage protection both in Ireland and across the EU.

"My Green Party colleague, John Gormley has already started the process of overhauling Irish heritage legislation to ensure that the M3/Tara controversy can never happen again. These changes will, we hope, satisfy the European Commission's entirely justified concerns that the legal framework for environmental and heritage protection in Ireland is inadequate.

"All of the legal advice available to Minister Gormley since taking office has been that Irish law does not provide any means for him to affect or change the decisions on the routing of the M3 made by the previous government.

"We urgently need a decision from the ECJ on the question of further environmental impact assessment when discoveries of major archaeological or heritage value are made once a major construction project has commenced.

"I also believe that we need a new National Monuments Act to ensure that Ireland's invaluable heritage is adequately protected from the pressures of development."

D'Peoples Voice

The local Authority has got off scott free:mad:
Why does no-one think the local authority have a part to play in all this?

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhmhcwojmhcw/

Tara campaigners promise new High Court action
17/10/2007 - 18:05:54

Campaigners opposed to the routing of the M3 motorway near the Hill of Tara today vowed to launch another High Court action to halt the road works.

TaraWatch said the European Commission’s decision to take the Government to the European Court of Justice (ECJ) over the construction project signalled a green light for a renewed legal offensive at home.

He said individuals linked to TaraWatch will lodge papers with the High Court in Dublin on the basis that ex-Minister for the Environment Dick Roche’s decision to proceed with construction and the ongoing works is contrary to EU law.

“This really is a defining moment for the coalition, the EU is taking them to court. They cannot deny now that this is a serious problem.”

It says the Government did not carry out an assessment on the significance of the national monument at Lismullen before deciding to remove it.

EU Environment Commissioner Stavros Dimas said: “I am disappointed that Ireland has not accepted the Commission view that improvements are needed in its legislation on impact assessments in order to better safeguard and give the public more say in decisions affecting its rich archaeological heritage, and to better guarantee that industrial projects will be comprehensively assessed.”

It could take weeks to months before the EC case is fully prepared and lodged with the ECJ for hearing.

Navan Junction

D'Peoples Voice wrote: »

The local Authority has got off scott free:mad:
Why does no-one think the local authority have a part to play in all this?

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhmhcwojmhcw/

Because the case would be about the National Monuments legislation and governmental obligations rather than about the M3

rameire

i live in kildare and a new developer is thinking of moving some stones that have been sitting in the ground for millions of years, anyone know a good campaigner, to stop the illegal movement of these stones, they have a right to stay burried in the ground un-noticed for a few more million years until some robot wants to put them on his mantle shelf, will vincent support me

Seth Brundle

rameire wrote: »

i live in kildare and a new developer is thinking of moving some stones that have been sitting in the ground for millions of years, anyone know a good campaigner, to stop the illegal movement of these stones, they have a right to stay burried in the ground un-noticed for a few more million years until some robot wants to put them on his mantle shelf, will vincent support me

Thats a very simplistic view of things.
The M3/Tara issue regards the state endorsed destruction of what should be a national monument.
IMO the motorway has been badly planned from the start (from a public perspective). No alternatives were publicly considered. The chosen route that went forward to the planning process was more expensive and more destructive than the others. No reasonable explanation has been offered to the taxpayer for this.
The proposed motorway will contain two tolls and will be the only real option for commuters. Despite several promises nothing really has been done on a rail service for these commuters. A 2+1 route could have been completed by now relieving the commuter - why wasn't this option used?
The initial planning process was effectively biased and flawed and once it became clear that circumstances had changed in terms of the significance of the area (despite numerous predictions by respected academics) this was all efefctively ignored by the minister in charge of our heritage.
There also appears to be issues with the NRA 'altering' the original plans. Rath Lugh (which John Gormless recently applied a temporary preservation order on) was meant to be 100m from the motorway. Currently the motorway is within 20m of the monument.
It also appears that the interchange will also link up with a new Eastern orbital route at Blundelstown. It also appears that despite claims otherwise, the area will be zoned commercial in coming years.

Tara is steeped in history - possibly the most historic site in the country. To have it bulldozed to meet (in my opinion) the needs of greedy fianna fail funding is immoral.

Nevyn

Tara is not being bulldozed.
The road is being built the far side of the existing road and is not encrouching on Tara at all.

Seth Brundle

Apologies, I was referring to the Tara-Skryne valley.

L1011

Thaedydal wrote: »

Tara is not being bulldozed.
The road is being built the far side of the existing road and is not encrouching on Tara at all.

And its this confusion that the anti-road campaigners appear to live on, because they've got massive amounts of people who seem to believe they're putting the road through the Hill of Tara - and not some distance away... (although kbannon has clarified that he's not one of those already)

D'Peoples Voice

Looks like at least Eirgrid have learnt the lesson from Meath County Council about trying to put an ugly piece of infrastucture through the skyrne valley
http://www.eirgrid.ie/EirgridPortal/uploads/East%20West%20Interconnector/Meath-Cavan%20Route%20Map.pdf
If only Meath county council had of taken one of these routes:(

lostexpectation

kbannon said Tara and he meant Tara, Tara is an area, Thaedydal and MYOB, along with the politicians are the only ones to put out the notion that the Hill of tara is being bulldozed.

BrianD

kbannon wrote: »

Thats a very simplistic view of things.
The M3/Tara issue regards the state endorsed destruction of what should be a national monument.
IMO the motorway has been badly planned from the start (from a public perspective). No alternatives were publicly considered. The chosen route that went forward to the planning process was more expensive and more destructive than the others. No reasonable explanation has been offered to the taxpayer for this.
The proposed motorway will contain two tolls and will be the only real option for commuters. Despite several promises nothing really has been done on a rail service for these commuters. A 2+1 route could have been completed by now relieving the commuter - why wasn't this option used?
The initial planning process was effectively biased and flawed and once it became clear that circumstances had changed in terms of the significance of the area (despite numerous predictions by respected academics) this was all efefctively ignored by the minister in charge of our heritage.
There also appears to be issues with the NRA 'altering' the original plans. Rath Lugh (which John Gormless recently applied a temporary preservation order on) was meant to be 100m from the motorway. Currently the motorway is within 20m of the monument.
It also appears that the interchange will also link up with a new Eastern orbital route at Blundelstown. It also appears that despite claims otherwise, the area will be zoned commercial in coming years.

Tara is steeped in history - possibly the most historic site in the country. To have it bulldozed to meet (in my opinion) the needs of greedy fianna fail funding is immoral.

Well put Mr. Bannon. It is most ironic that fuming motorists stuck on the N3 fail to understand the link between their predicament and the government that they have just voted in. It's not environmentalists who are holding the N3 (it's being built anyway) it's the well paid planners and their masters who made a mess of it in the first place. In any other country, they would have regard for their national heritage and chosen a route further away from Tara. The arguement that the M3 is further away from the existing route is a red herring.

ironically, the Dunshaughlin bypass will be built except it will be used as an access route for new housing developments that will go to the west of the village.

It is also ironic that many pro-M3 people are not fully aware of the tolling structure and that motorists going to Dublin will pay an average of €1,000 in tolls per annum (without going over the westlink). That's on top of your car tax. My dad works in Navan and he has encountered many customers who are flabergasted about the tolls.

it is also bizarre that those who intend to use the Park and Ride will get no relief from the second toll. It would have been more desirable if the southern toll was located after the exit for the proposed park and ride so favourisng those who use the facility.

Also why no tolls on the N2, also built to motorway standard?

L1011

lostexpectation wrote: »

kbannon said Tara and he meant Tara, Tara is an area, Thaedydal and MYOB, along with the politicians are the only ones to put out the notion that the Hill of tara is being bulldozed.

Errr.... no. The majority of people in this country have a ((Tara==Hill of Tara)) automatic assumption and the anti-road campaigners do absolutely nothing to correct this - if anything they capitalise on the confusion. I've had to correct three people in work who've made this mistake, all along the "isn't it terrible they're putting a road through the Hill of Tara...." line.

Seth Brundle

In fairness MYOB, Im after doing a quick google for 'Save Tara'. Of the seven sites returned, one was for some US house whilst the rest are linked below:
http://www.savetara.com/
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/80968
http://www.mythicalireland.com/ancientsites/tara/threat.html
http://www.hilloftara.info/
http://www.savetaravalley.com/
http://www.tarawatch.org/

They all contain references to the Tara Skryne Valley - (with the debatable exception of hilloftara.info), maybe you can help me find where these sites are capitalising on the confusion.

Oh and from what I can see, the Blundelstown interchange is at the base of the hill so technically there will be bulldozing on the hill!
http://www.m3motorway.ie/RelatedContent/file,4383,en.pdf

cournioni

kbannon wrote: »

They all contain references to the Tara Skryne Valley - (with the debatable exception of hilloftara.info), maybe you can help me find where these sites are capitalising on the confusion.

All you have to do is look at the petition on the website you have linked in your signature to see how the protesters have been almost brainwashed into thinking that the road is actually going through the Hill of Tara. Most of the people I have spoken to about the M3 issue thought that the road was going through the hill also... I wonder who put that into their heads??

Seth Brundle

In all fairness, the site owners are not brainwashing the signees. The petition is quite clear

To: Prime Minister of Ireland, Mr Bertie Ahern

Dear Taoiseach Ahern,

I object the planned routing of the M3 motorway through the Tara-Skryne valley, and the resulting despoilment this will cause to Ireland’s oldest and most revered national monument.

The archaeological importance of this area is beyond question. After seven years surveying the Hill of Tara and its 80km² hinterland as director of the government funded Discovery Programme, Conor Newman said: “Tara is one of the most important and famous archaeological complexes in the world.… all of our researches point to the valley between Tara and Skryne as an area of paramount importance throughout the history of Tara.”

More recently, 12 eminent Irish historians and archaeologists in letters to the Irish Independent and The Examiner wrote: “The Hill of Tara constitutes the heart and Soul of Ireland. Its very name invokes the spirit and mystique of our people and is instantly recognisable worldwide. The plan approved recently by An Bord Pleanála for the M3 motorway to dissect the Tara-Skryne valley, Ireland's premier national monument, spells out a massive national and international tragedy that must be averted.”

Can anyone doubt the profound cultural importance of Tara and its unique landscape? A landscape honoured and revered by millions throughout the world today and countless generations of Irish people gone before us.
Nowhere else in Ireland is there a landscape that can claim the Tuatha de Danann, Celtic Gods and Goddesses, St. Patrick, Daniel O’Connell, Thomas Moore, heroes and High Kings from Fionn MacCumhail to Brian Boru, an archaeological complex of temples, tombs, enclosures and henges spanning five millennia, and a continuous place at the centre of Irish spiritual, cultural, political and literary history, as part of it’s fabric.

Yet it is through the very heart of this landscape, that Meath County Council, the NRA and the Irish Government wish to build a motorway, which will impact at least 141 known sites. According to Dr Conor Newman, this is just “the tip of the iceberg”.

Roads, of course, are necessary to relieving the nightmare of traffic congestion. However, in the absence of any plans to improve the Navan Road/M50 roundabout, the M3 project will not relieve congestion, it will merely move it from one place to another; plugging the worst bottleneck between Navan and Dublin even tighter. Spending €680m on an ineffectual motorway that will ruin Tara forever, cannot be described as progress; rather it constitutes wanton vandalism on a grand scale.

The National Roads Authority has released an estimate of €20m to excavate the route of the M3. I believe this figure could be closer to €100m, since there are more than likely so many monuments yet to be discovered, due to a low-grade geophysical survey carried out during the EIS. I strongly object to this amount of Irish taxpayers money being used to dig up our prize national monument, and other national monuments all around the country, especially in light of the recent High Court finding that heritage protection regulations enacted by your Government are unconstitutional.

And so I am moved to ask you three questions:

1). The M3 plans include the construction of a 34 acre floodlit intersection (Blundelstown) a mere 1,090 meters from the Hill of Tara’s core zone (as defined by OPW); what has, or will, your Office do to preserve the national monument of Tara from this permanent defacement?

2). Why are the people of Ireland being asked to pay €1.3 billion (via toll charges and taxes) for a project estimated at €64, but which cannot demonstrably relieve congestion, will lead to more violations of the Kyoto agreement, and will damage our national heritage irretrievably?

3). What will your Office do to urge re-consideration of the currently approved route for the M3, and/or to engage in a process of generating alternative effective solutions to the very real problem of traffic congestion in the area, such as reopening the Dublin to Navan railroad?

I look forward to your reply, and in the meantime urge you, in your capacity as Taoiseach to oppose the imminent despoilment of Tara by the M3 motorway, and to do all you can in working for the reversal of this disastrous decision.

What people write there is (I presume) not under the direct control of he site owners.

Chris_533976

Yeah theres a ton of mistakes in that.

BrianD

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Yeah theres a ton of mistakes in that.

Care to elaborate?

It is really irrelevant whether people think that Tara is going to be physically bulldozed or not. That is not the issue. The issue is whether a new motorway that is being built to open up areas for development should be built through an area that everyone knows is of historic significance - especially as viable alternatives were available.

In any case, if you travel along the N3 you will see how close the construction work is to the hill itself.

Seth Brundle

Don't forget that the Blundelstown interchange will more than likely become part of the proposed ring road

darkman2

There is not even any point in arguing anymore. The fact is that this motorway is well under construction. Realistically any arguments anyone may have had ended a year ago when construction began. It all seem a bit pointless now tbh.

Chris_533976

BrianD wrote: »

Care to elaborate?

Roads, of course, are necessary to relieving the nightmare of traffic congestion. However, in the absence of any plans to improve the Navan Road/M50 roundabout, the M3 project will not relieve congestion, it will merely move it from one place to another;

N3/M50 roundabout will be (probobly) fully grade separated with the M50 works.

The National Roads Authority has released an estimate of €20m to excavate the route of the M3. I believe this figure could be closer to €100m, since there are more than likely so many monuments yet to be discovered, due to a low-grade geophysical survey carried out during the EIS.

Thats pure uneducated guesswork. Provide evidence of a fivefold increase in costs.

Why are the people of Ireland being asked to pay €1.3 billion (via toll charges and taxes) for a project estimated at €64,

Cheap stuff





Now I'm not saying either way on whether I want the motorway or not, but I'm just summing up that that letter should have been proofread

BrianD

darkman2 wrote: »

There is not even any point in arguing anymore. The fact is that this motorway is well under construction. Realistically any arguments anyone may have had ended a year ago when construction began. It all seem a bit pointless now tbh.

You are quite correct. It will probably be the fastest road ever built in this country. However, there are a couple of issues that can still be decided:

Elimination of the tolls on the route

and more importantly, focuses attention on the decision makers who have made a right royal cock up of planning the M3 route. Hopefully, lessons can be learned. It really does underline our complete ineptidude when it comes to national infrastructure planning.

spacetweek

We've screwed up bigtime by routing the road through this valley, it's true. The NRA said the reason they chose this route was because less homes would have to be demolished. I think they should have bitten the bullet and demolished away. Many of them were probably bungalow blitz shrapnel anyway - we could have killed two birds with one stone.

However, the locomotive can't be stopped now. The road is under construction and can't be undone. In any case, Meath and the northwest needs this infrastructure, as a rapidly urbanising region close to a major city. It also needs rail - more on that in a second.

There are a couple of things we need to do to mitigate this damage.

The Blundelstown interchange really is taking the piss - it's not enough to have the road going right past a national monument, but they also have to have a huge motorway interchange that will probably be floodlit at night and dominating the view both day and night from the summit of the hill. The lights need to be removed or screened from this and the whole structure heavily screened with tall trees to reduce the visual pollution - as should the whole stretch running through the valley.

Build the railway to Navan as quickly as possible to provide an essential non-motorway alternative.

Sort out the ridiculous tolling situation that will ensure that no one uses the PnR and stays on the road all the way into town. Eliminate the toll at Pace altogether (Gov buyout?) or provide a government subsidised rebate system - on entering the car park you get a voucher or something. This system would reward people for switching to rail at Pace and punish those who stay in the car, who don't get their toll back. The motorway operators don't mind because people have finished driving on the motorway at that stage anyway and they still get paid.