'less-lethal' weapons conference

chewy

"We're too lazy to push for reform, and then complain that no-one else has integrated that reform"

how do we push for reform

everyone knows the gardai need more accountability... but the gov just want them to investiage themselves and thats been shown as a total failure with the rts investigation board getting stoned walled by the cops...


ohh civdef comes out with all this stuff (and where's his links?), do you play rent a cop at the weekend do ya?


british cs gas causing lasting damage
Review urged on CS sprays
'from the police's own science bureau'
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/homeaffairs/story/0,11026,1289437,00.html

civdef

chewy wrote:

ohh civdef comes out with all this stuff (and where's his links?), do you play rent a cop at the weekend do ya?

british cs gas causing lasting damage
Review urged on CS sprays
'from the police's own science bureau'
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/homeaffairs/story/0,11026,1289437,00.html

Well, for one thing, that link you quote doesn't state "british cs gas causing lasting damage" . The article is about a request for further research. None of the symptoms described constitute lasting damage.

http://www.advisorybodies.doh.gov.uk/cot/csgas.htm


For the record I have personal experience of the subject, including getting sprayed with CS. I can assure you if given a choice between a whack of a baton and being sprayed with CS, I'd take the latter.

chewy

"Landsdown Road - not relevant in a discussion of inproper police use of weapons on innocent people, considering the recipients of the force were far from innocent."

how do you know that, how do the police know who was innocent and wasn't when they went the cops went around viciously beaten anybody in arms lenght and atleast two of the people in the crowd were Irish people caught in the melee and got beaten on the head for no reason!!!

http://www.advisorybodies.doh.gov.uk/cot/csgas.htm

and all the training and scientific testing goes out the window if a cop loses his cool and sprays the cs gas directly into person eyes which theres clear footage of recently in the uk

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4568469,00.html
BOSTON (AP) - A college student celebrating the Red Sox come-from-behind victory over the New York Yankees was killed after a police officer called in to control the rowdy crowd shot her in the eye with what was designed to be a non-lethal projectile


significantly less liley to kill, but who do know?

civdef

how do you know that, how do the police know who was innocent and wasn't when they went the cops went around viciously beaten anybody in arms lenght and atleast two of the people in the crowd were Irish people caught in the melee and got beaten on the head for no reason!!!

Never heard about Irish people getting mixed up in the Combat 18 crowd before, any sources on that? Once a riot situation develops, it's unfortunate if you get caught up inocently in it, but you are likely to get hurt (from either side) - the plan is not to get caught up in the first place.

and all the training and scientific testing goes out the window if a cop loses his cool and sprays the cs gas directly into person eyes which theres clear footage of recently in the uk

The risk of eye damage from CS spray directly into the eye is a physical one from the force of the spray rather than the chemical. Regulations on use require a minimum distance of around 1m between the canister and the sprayee except in emergencies. If an officer misuses any weapon, or physical force, they should and do face investigation and criminal charges.

Phil_321

I think they should be allowed to use non-lethal weapons. It's gotten out of hand these days with people complaining about the guards. They're afraid to do their job properly in case they get brought up for it.

I was told to "f*ck off home before I kick your f*cking head in and drag you down the station".

They're not sales assistants, they're not supposed to be polite. The guy was just doing his job, as you said, dispersing the crowd. That language seems fairly effective to me.

bonkey

Lemming wrote:

I was told to "f*ck off home before I kick your f*cking head in and drag you down the station". For standing quietly waiting for some mates. Now there's a dispersal tactic based on maturity for you :rolleyes:

Only one thing to do. Campaign for cops to only be allowed wear fluffy slippers, so that they can't kick anyone's head in.

I mean...its the same line as "if we give them notionally-non-lethal weapons, they'll only abuse them to beat us up", except its dealing with a notionally-non-lethal weapon they already have.

Personally, I think getting warned as opposed to getting kicked is a very mature way to disperse a crowd. The same logic should follow with CS Gas, tasers, etc....you'd be told "sod off home before I shove 20,000 bolts up your a**e (and make you go VOOM)".

But apprently not....the "opposing" logic seems to be that the cops mightn't kick you without reason (oinly threaten to), but if we gave them better weapons, they'd use them indiscriminately....

jc

chewy

civdef do you think that when a cop does something wrong he is investigated properly what world do you live in,


i don't have any links on the lansdowne story i looked before but it was so long ago...

i remember the footage you should have seen the look on those guards faces , if their own mother had walked in front of them the would have kept on beating, those guards should be albe to keep their heads in that sorta situation

bonkey it is true that police are more likley to use force when they have these weapons because they think they won't cause more damage

cops should be sure of every action they take...

i think it was 31 or so people who got killed up the north
look at the list of the dead
http://www.serve.com/pfc/policing/plastic/plastic23072001b.html


this is how a cop is more likely to use excessive force with these weapons,

parahprasing.... it was up the north when the hunger strikes were causing havoc in the prisons and we have an 11 year old girl walking to the shops... at a nearby checkpoint a british soldier is pissed off at the fenians so he takes his plastic bullet gun and decides to give one of them a warning... bang oh dear he's hit her in the head and killed her.... if he only had a rifle he would have not shot at her, (now that no arguement for guns ) it just an argument for the mistaken idea that these guns are "safer"

Lemming

bonkey wrote:

Only one thing to do. Campaign for cops to only be allowed wear fluffy slippers, so that they can't kick anyone's head in.

As amusing as that sounds, my point wasn't anything to do with not getting kicked in the head, but rather that if you put a weapon in the hands of an already aggressive person, compound that with giving them the power of authority and it doesn't sit well thinking about the possibilities.

The garda in question didn't tell me to move on, didn't make any motions as if to disperse, and I wasn't standing in a bunch of people, but off to the side and away from the general throng of people coming out of the club. He simply went at me. I would rather the likes of him *weren't* given the notion that they could fire a weapon at someone and automagically not kill them.

Sand

Theres no reason to assume the Gardai cant be trusted to use less lethal weapons responsibly - theyve been cleared of the May Day riots - correctly imo - they policed the violent protests against the EU meeting brilliantly I thought despite provocation from the "peaceful" protestors, and abbeylara was a witch-hunt by TDs trying to make a name for themselves by crucifiying Gardai who justifiably shot an armed dangerously unbalanced man advancing on them.

Theres talk about the crinimals arming themselves more heavily in response to Gardai - hello, the gangs in Limerick are more heavily armed than the Taliban these days! If anything I have nothing but the utmost respect for the courage of unarmed Gardai, such as the Garda who raced after an republican gang who abducted a scumbag like the Viper, despite being shot at with automatic weapons by these so called patriots. The opponents of providing the Gardai with an upgrade to ye olde baton have to resort to invoking the RUC trying to police a terrorist campaign or isolated incidents in police forces thousands of miles away. That or theyre arts students and thus their opinions can be discounted from any reasonable debate.

Very good protest. I was there carrying the Labour Youth banner,

Do you know who that gimp dressed all in black with the skull mask and the plastic gun was? He was phtographed in the Irish Times I think standing beside a line of Gardai. All but one of them were chatting amongst themselves amibialy ( obviously taking a break from torturing hippies with tasers ) but the look of the Garda beside of him was priceless - he was just glancing at the protestor and speaking for the nation with an exspression that said "You bloody plonker!"

Sparks

Sand wrote:

Theres no reason to assume the Gardai cant be trusted to use less lethal weapons responsibly

Other than the less-than-stellar record of the ERU with lethal weapons.

theyve been cleared of the May Day riots - correctly imo

The force in general, perhaps - the individuals in question, however, that's a different matter. Being cleared of wrongdoing and having your mates say "Sorry your honour, I don't remember who was there with me" are two different things.

abbeylara was a witch-hunt by TDs trying to make a name for themselves by crucifiying Gardai who justifiably shot an armed dangerously unbalanced man advancing on them.

Actually, the witch-hunt is being pointed at legitimate firearms owners. The latest suggestions by Barr include mental health evaluations every year for every firearms owner (all 200,000 of us, presumably at our expense, and it'd be nice to see where we get the two weeks to spend in a mental health facility under observation which is what a proper workup requires - and all of us at the same time because of how the system works); and requiring our doctors and lawyers to break confidentiality if they think we're mentally disturbed (despite their lack of credentials in mental health, a point the Irish medical association is protesting over).

I agree that the Gardai on the ground when McCarthy left the house had no choice - with an armed assailant in a situation like that, you have to shoot, and shoot to kill for that matter (those who believe you can shoot a moving attacker to disarm them have seen too much hollywood and too little actual rifle range time).

Meanwhile, however, there are those who have questions to answer and who weren't asked to do so in the four investigations preceding Barr: for example, the Garda superintendent who returned McCarthy's firearms to him a year before the shooting, despite the fact that their original confiscation was because he'd waved them at people in a threatening manner and despite his qualified psychologist stating to the Super in writing that McCarthy might become despondant and perhaps suicidal if he didn't get them back (not something you'd associate with a mentally stable individual).

Frankly, the level of training we give Gardai leaves a lot to be desired. It's not the fault of the Gardai, you understand - we just don't fund them sufficently to train them. But then that has to make you pause and wonder - if the Gardai empowered by law to make decisions regarding firearms certificates can't be given sufficent training to understand the job, then how can we know that we'll fund the Gardai enough so that they'll be trained in using less-lethal weapons safely?