M50 News

DubTony

causal wrote:

tbh I was a bit miffed at some of the gantries. My interpretation where there are two lanes and the sign says left lane for exit X and right lane to continue on M50 is that I need to get out of the left lane if I want to continue on the M50. But I didn't have to - it was just a normal exit continuing straight on with a slip road created on the left :rolleyes:
causal

A female moment no less.

Yeah, actually saw somebody do this today. Woman in an Astra pulled out into the overtaking lane for absolutely no reason. This was just after she passed under the gantry that states Loughlinstown is the inside lane and Wicklow is the outside lane.

This nonsense starts at the Ballinteer exit. All the new gantries state that you should be in the left lane for the next exit and in the overtaking lane for anywhere else.

There is really no need for gantries like these on a straightforward stretch of motorway. The single gantries that indicate you should take the next exit for wherever would be quite adequate. They've gone gantry mad, and made an arse of them.

DubTony

Has anybody noticed that the Cherrywood junction isn't yet signposted from the N11? Travelling from Sallynoggin to the M50 I was directed south on the N11 at the junction with (is it Johnstown Road?) but all the signs from there on have the M50 bit either covered over or not yet written on (just a blue background). It wasn't difficult to figure it out once you take the exit at Wyatville. But if you miss that, it's hello M11.

jd

They have made a pig's arse of the gantries all right-you'd think you have to pill out into the overtaking lane !
Which reminds me- why do Irish drivers like to hog the overtaking lane?
And if that isn't bad enough, people pull over and stop on the hard shoulder- I'm guessing to yap on their mobiles.Like WTF!-it's time that nonsense was stopped.
Anyway, it is great for traffic from the southeast going to north dublin or beyond. From the middle of the Arklow bypass on the N11 to the Ballymun exit took about 50 minutes.
jd

mackerski

As the others have said, those ridiculous signs have got to go. We've all made jokes in the past about road planners making it up as they go along, but this is mad. It's as though somebody at NRA read about "get in lane" signs in a book somewhere and decided they had to have them.

Here's what's wrong: We all know how Irish drivers have never quite got the hand of keeping left. I fear that we aint seen nothing yet. Because now we've got 10km of brandy new motorway that actually tell you that it's OK (nay, essential) to hog the overtaking lane.

Make no mistake, get-in-lane signs are very useful. To see how useful they are, just look at the M1 northbound just before the airport. But they have to mean what they say. When you erect a sign saying "stay under the arrow to go to Bray", the deal is that that lane will peel off and go to Bray. On the M50, it seems to mean "get in this lane and watch carefully for more instructions". Furthermore, by implying that the left lane is only for the next exit, they've conveniently reduced the mainline from two lanes to only one.

And did anybody else notice how the planners managed to give us twice as much information to take in as necessary? On those rare occasions when they actually allow through traffic in both lanes, they've given each lane its own identical sign, each one with its own private list of the same destinations.

Who's responsible for this muppetry? Who is it that hires people to build motorways not to national or internation norms, but to make it up as they go along? If those signs aren't fixed soon it'll set back driver awareness by about 10 years.

Dermot

Alun

Agreed, those signs are crazy. i mean, why bother looking at international best practice in other countries when you can dream up something of your own?!

Those gantries on the northbound M11/M50 split are a case in point. The two straight ahead lanes that become the M50 should simply have a single wide gantry sign covering both lanes reading something like "M50 (north) All other routes", and the turn off onto the M11 simply "M11 (N11) Dublin", and get rid of those fecking great ferry boat symbols.

jd

Hee- was coming back frokm Dundrum via M50 again today- another 3 or 4 people over at the side of the road, including one who appeared to be having an argument with his girlfriend!??!?. And then a tailback caused by one of the chrome wheel and baseball cap brigade rear-ending someone. I'm pretty tempted to write a letter regarding those damn gantries though..
jd

DubTony

mackerski wrote:

Make no mistake, get-in-lane signs are very useful. To see how useful they are, just look at the M1 northbound just before the airport. But they have to mean what they say. When you erect a sign saying "stay under the arrow to go to Bray", the deal is that that lane will peel off and go to Bray. On the M50, it seems to mean "get in this lane and watch carefully for more instructions". Furthermore, by implying that the left lane is only for the next exit, they've conveniently reduced the mainline from two lanes to only one.....
Who's responsible for this muppetry? If those signs aren't fixed soon it'll set back driver awareness by about 10 years.

Dermot

You've hit the nail on the head. As a nation we're pretty crap at the driving thing. I'd imagine it's in the genes or something. A "sure they're only rules" attitude. And we've always been bad at road signs. MT from up north has had loads to say about that on the boards.

jd, the contacts page for NRA is here. I have no idea who'd be the best person to send a letter to. Any suggestions anyone?

loyatemu

signposting on the new road is generally bad. Heading north for Dundrum you take the exit signposted "dundrum" and then arrive at a roundabout with no signs for dundrum. There is however a sign for ballinteer, so you take that road which runs parallel to the M50 for about a mile, arrive at the next roundabout where there's no sign for ballinteer, but there is a sign for dundrum!!

also the ferryport signs at the M11/M50 split are very confusing - they are consistent with the rest of the ferryport signs around the city (ie Dublin Port is indicated with just a picture of a ferry, while DunLaoghaire port has the picture of the ferry with "Dunlaoghaire" written beside it) but when they are placed beside each other it is very confusing - should specifically say "Dublin Port"

Also the first exit northbound is signposted for Loughlinstown - if you are southbound on the m50 then this is the correct exit for Loughlinstown but if you are northbound you are better off staying on the M11 and if you are going to Loughlinstown hospital (which really ought to be seperately signposted at the split) then the M11 is the only practical way to go.

Macy

Was on the M50 at the weekend heading down the country (not just for a spin ). The get in line signs are a joke and will lead to total confusion for tourists used to proper signage - particularly for those coming from Britain and arriving into Dun Laoghaire. I really don't see the logic, bar reducing speed in the overtaking lane by people following the signs. The overheads could simply be "next exit *where ever* 1km" rather than the ridiculous situation now.

Question is will anyone with any influence notice?

jd

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

that's something you'd expect to hear from a Fine Gael head.
How is having no signs a solution?

.

I think it is quite obvious to the reasonably intelligent that Dermot wants the signs on the gantries replaced.

John

murphaph

jd wrote:

I think it is quite obvious to the reasonably intelligent that Dermot wants the signs on the gantries replaced.

Quite. :rolleyes:

mackerski

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

John, If Dermot wanted them REPLACED, he should have suggested an alternative!

This must be the slow class. I did have an alternative in mind - but since my alternative was the standard fork signs in use on every other motorway in the country, I didn't bother to spell it out.

Alternatively, keep the gantries, but lose the get-in-lane arrows and simply show a big arrow pointing left for the turn-off directions.

Dermot (no political affiliation)

Macy

mackerski wrote:

This must be the slow class. I did have an alternative in mind - but since my alternative was the standard fork signs in use on every other motorway in the country, I didn't bother to spell it out.

This is the bottom line - why have non-standard signs on it in the first place? It's whoever decided on this farce that chose an alternative... :rolleyes:

causal

DubTony wrote:

the contacts page for NRA is here. I have no idea who'd be the best person to send a letter to. Any suggestions anyone?

fwiw roads@dlrcoco.ie is a useful place to email your feedback to Dun Laogharie Rathdown County Counicl (who afaik are responsible for the SEM section of the M50)

causal

arista

Neh, didn't have a problem at all understanding the signs, on Sunday it took all of 25 mins to go from the M1 to the M11, all in all a nice drive, not too busy and cuts my journey time in half.

murphaph

Bring on the Eastern Bypass :eek:

causal

arista wrote:

Neh, didn't have a problem at all understanding the signs,

You mean you totally ignored the signs and hogged the outside lane the wholetime

causal

mackerski

causal wrote:

You mean you totally ignored the signs and hogged the outside lane the wholetime

Hogging the overtaking lane is exactly what the signs tell you to do...

Dermot

causal

I know. It was me who first posted about it in this very thread last Friday

causal

Blaster99

For me at least, the most annoying thing is that you can't go south at Carrickmines and you can't go south at Leopardstown. So if you're at Carrickmines you have to drive across the Sandyford Ind Est over to the Balally Shopping Centre and then get on the M50 there. If it's even possible to go south from there, I haven't tried considering this journey would take about 30 minutes on a good day. Granted it's going to get sorted at some stage, but right now it's very frustrating to have to continue to use the backroads.

DubTony

Blaster99 wrote:

For me at least, the most annoying thing is that you can't go south at Carrickmines and you can't go south at Leopardstown. So if you're at Carrickmines you have to drive across the Sandyford Ind Est over to the Balally Shopping Centre and then get on the M50 there. If it's even possible to go south from there, I haven't tried considering this journey would take about 30 minutes on a good day. Granted it's going to get sorted at some stage, but right now it's very frustrating to have to continue to use the backroads.

The Carrickmines access southbound will open whenever they get that old wall business sorted out. Traffic heading south should stay on those nice back roads that people pay millions to live on and join the N11. Or go the opposite way and use Sandyford (not Balally).
Leopardstown and Sandyford are like a split junction. Sort of 2 halves of the same junction ... or something. Leopardstown traffic heading south is expected to use that nice new Sandyford junction. Well, it cost a fortune, might as well get value for money from it. Or you could just go to the N11.

edit: oops. Just relised the Sandyford junction is right beside Balally S.C. Sorry.

The Sisco Kid

Leopardstown and Sandyford are like a split junction. Sort of 2 halves of the same junction ... or something.

Except it's not really....
a friend of mine from the north missed the turn for Dundrum when heading South, took the next exit for Leopardstown and turned around thinking that he could take the next exit for Dundrum. The next exit is of course Firhouse - 6 miles later.
If he had stayed on the motorway and taken the Carrickmines exit it would have been easier, but then that isn't exactly the logical thing to do...

statto

Would it have killed them to build a proper interchange at Ballinteer? You can't get from Leopardstown to Ballinteer via the motorway. You have to go through the industrial estate where you end up, after going over a flyover, back at the roundabout at the Ballinteer interchange - what’s the point.

Andrew Duffy

Would it have killed them to build a proper interchange at Ballinteer? You can't get from Leopardstown to Ballinteer via the motorway. You have to go through the industrial estate where you end up, after going over a flyover, back at the roundabout at the Ballinteer interchange - what’s the point.

Using motorways for short junction hops like this is what makes them not work. However, you can join the motorway westbound from the Leapardstown Road - are you thinking of the new Drummartin Link Road that goes north from the largest roundabout at Sandyford towards Windy Arbour?

loyatemu

You can't get from Leopardstown to Ballinteer via the motorway

once the kilgobbin link road opens you will be able to go via the roads that run parallel to the motorway (albeit with a lot of screwing around at roundabouts)
http://www.dlrcoco.ie/Roads/LeopardstownM50.htm

loyatemu

Except it's not really....
a friend of mine from the north missed the turn for Dundrum when heading South, took the next exit for Leopardstown and turned around thinking that he could take the next exit for Dundrum. The next exit is of course Firhouse - 6 miles later.

it is though - if you turn off southbound at sandyford, you can cross the motorway by the flyover and take the parallel road back to the ballinteer junction - unfortunately it seems to be very badly signposted.

[edit]
actually i'm wrong - from looking at the map, you can't easily get back to the ballinteer junction if you miss it heading south

The Sisco Kid

However, you can join the motorway westbound from the Leapardstown Road - are you thinking of the new Drummartin Link Road that goes north from the largest roundabout at Sandyford towards Windy Arbour?

No, I'm thinking about the road from the Leopardstown Roundabout towards Bewleys. I think they've made a mess of this and I think that it will be chaotic in September / October.

There's a couple of big business parks that come out there - Central Park, South County Business Park as well as parts of Sandyford Ind Estate and they're funnelled down a dual carriageway to a half-junction that only goes Northbound (Westbound) onto the M50 or across the bridge to Stepaside.

Eventually Southbound traffic will be able to cross the M50 to get to roundabout No. 2 take a right to roundabout No. 3 at Kilgobbin and then right onto the Sandyford junction (roundabout No. 4 - traffic light controlled no doubt!) before going Southbound. One well placed slip road would have helped (has anyone figured out what will change with the M50 upgrade?)

BrianD

mackerski wrote:

Hogging the overtaking lane is exactly what the signs tell you to do...

Dermot

I noticed that, DLRD's signage is a joke! The overhead gantry's are a welcome addition but indicating that N11 bound traffic should stay in the overtaking lane borders on idiotic and close to calls into question the professionalism and ability of the traffic planners in that council. Let's face it they are also responsible for the wholly inadequate and ridiculously placed speed signs on the N11.

The M50 is a national route so it is not there to convenience local traffic.

causal

BrianD wrote:

I noticed that, DLRD's signage is a joke! <snip>Let's face it they are also responsible for the wholly inadequate and ridiculously placed speed signs on the N11.

I was heading north on the M11 and wanted to continue to Loughlinstown (i.e. not 'continue' straight onto the M50).
The 'exit ramp' has a limit of 60kmh which is fair enough - but this limit now extends all the way to the Loughlinstown roundabout (after which there is a 50 kmh limit).

causal

DubTony

BrianD wrote:

The M50 is a national route so it is not there to convenience local traffic.

The M50 was built to keep non city traffic out of Dublin. If it wasn't there thousands of people would cross the city to get to work each day. It was always intended as a way around Dublin to prevent congestion in the town. Whether that was commuter or national traffic is irrelevant. But there are so many junctions close together on it that it was always going to be used by locals. Add to that shopping centres and business parks, and we have the disaster we have today. The new section shows that they've learned a little from the mistakes of the past. Except maybe that new retail park at Carrickmines. Brown envelope anyone?

DubTony

causal wrote:

I was heading north on the M11 and wanted to continue to Loughlinstown (i.e. not 'continue' straight onto the M50).
The 'exit ramp' has a limit of 60kmh which is fair enough - but this limit now extends all the way to the Loughlinstown roundabout (after which there is a 50 kmh limit).

causal

There are also a massive amount of "Slow Down" signs before the split. If it had been built properly there'd be no need for slowing. The "exit ramp" can easily accomodate a 100 k limit.

And as you head south from Loughlinstown roundabout there's a 60 km/h sign at the start of the M11. There's no 120km/h sign further on before it merges with the M50. Could see a couple of people's "Oh sh!t" reactions the other day as they hit the accelerator. Methinks DLRcoco have forgotten a few things. Like the lack of M50 signs on the N11 at the Wyatville junction.

causal

DubTony wrote:

There are also a massive amount of "Slow Down" signs before the split. If it had been built properly there'd be no need for slowing. The "exit ramp" can easily accomodate a 100 k limit.

tbh I don't think that bridge (leaving the M11 north to go to Loughlinstown) can safely take 100kmh - it's a two lane carriageway bridge that is basically a blind hill with a bend.

causal

Victor

mackerski wrote:

"Get in Lane". Why???

Possibly because on the M1 southbound, people use both lanes to turn off for the M50

mackerski

Victor wrote:

Possibly because on the M1 southbound, people use both lanes to turn off for the M50

I'm not sure what you're saying here Victor. On the M1 southbound there are three lanes prior to the M50 intersection. The left one is a lane drop, the middle one (which is normally lane 1) has access to a decelleration lane at the split point, the right lane (normally lane 2) doesn't provide access to the junction at all.

At this junction, gantries with get-in-lane are used correctly. I'm not sure if you're suggesting that the get-in-lane signposting policies on the new stretch of M50 are valid, but if you are you should elaborate. Be sure to make reference to why no other country signposts simple exits in this fashion.

Dermot

DubTony

causal wrote:

tbh I don't think that bridge (leaving the M11 north to go to Loughlinstown) can safely take 100kmh - it's a two lane carriageway bridge that is basically a blind hill with a bend.

causal

I've just come back from Bray and took the M11 because I had to check it out again. I was right. You can easily take the ramp and bridge / hill at 100 .... as long as there's nothing else around.

The 60 limit while coming off the M50 is quite a drop. Admittedly 100k is too fast. The blind hill doesn't help. Is there the possibility that an accident just over the crest / around the bend could cause a huge pile-up?
This just highlights the fault in the construction. Traffic leaving a motorway really should not be subject to a sharp drop in speed. It should be permitted to slow down gradually. A longer ramp / bridge with less of a gradient would have been better. The M11 continues to the roundabout and is still a motorway. This junction is the seperation of 2 motorways and should have been constructed to motorway standard.

mackerski

DubTony wrote:

Traffic leaving a motorway really should not be subject to a sharp drop in speed. It should be permitted to slow down gradually. A longer ramp / bridge with less of a gradient would have been better.

I tend towards your view on this, as do motorway planners here and in the UK. Our motorway junctions tend to reserve tight corners for on-ramps, avoiding them on off-ramps. Not all countries care so much. German off-ramps have sharp corners as often as not, and it's just part of normal driving to treat the decelleration lane as just that. This practice extends to inter-Autobahn junctions, where cloverleaf junctions (with the resulting tight loops)
are the norm. France doesn't mind tight exits either, but they like to show an exiting speed limit as you peel off.

DubTony wrote:

The M11 continues to the roundabout and is still a motorway. This junction is the seperation of 2 motorways and should have been constructed to motorway standard.

This really is debatable. When I realised that the M11 was ceasing to be the mainline at this junction I was initially surprised. The thing is, though, the M11 north of this point is really only a spur to the Loughlinstown roundabout. It's still the M11, because it has to be something, and it's still motorway because only motorway traffic can be on it, but it's short and it serves only to dump you off onto an all-purpose road. For me, 60 is too slow both for the ramp and for the remaining stretch to the roundabout, but whatever limit is set for "exiting" traffic, there's not much point lifting it. Neither can I see a compelling reason to overengineer what is, in effect, an exit spur.

Dermot

spacetweek

mackerski wrote:

At this junction, gantries with get-in-lane are used correctly. I'm not sure if you're suggesting that the get-in-lane signposting policies on the new stretch of M50 are valid, but if you are you should elaborate. Be sure to make reference to why no other country signposts simple exits in this fashion.Dermot

The new M50 gantries such as this aren't supposed to indicate get-in-lane. (This, however, is.) They're trying to tell you what's coming up for the next exit. If you're continuing on the M50, you don't have to get into the fast lane. All they mean is "For the destinations on the left, take the upcoming exit (which is not in view yet), and for all other exits, stay where you are."

I would say that they could have indicated this better by using a diagonal arrow on the left-hand gantry pointing to the bottom left, like this one uses. So the gantry would look like the attachment here.

Apart from that, they're exemplary gantries, with a nice top-to-bottom layout, clearly visible exit and route numbering, and distance to exit. Yay NRA! Now for the rest of the M50...

mackerski

spacetweek wrote:

The new M50 gantries such as this aren't supposed to indicate get-in-lane.

They mightn't be supposed to, but that is exactly what they do indicate. Your comparison image, from the M1, emphasises this perfectly. An overhead sign with an arrow under it means one thing only: "get in the lane under this sign for the named destinations" (with a further assumption that you can stay in the lane and it will peel off).

An oblique arrow would work for the turnoff, though you have to be careful with these, because a possible interpretation is that the turnoff is peeling off at the sign itself. And it's still not valid to leave a get-in-lane on the overtaking lane only.

What you really need if you want to go gantry on these junctions is something like this.

spacetweek wrote:

Apart from that, they're exemplary gantries, with a nice top-to-bottom layout, clearly visible exit and route numbering, and distance to exit. Yay NRA! Now for the rest of the M50...

Damn right. Apart from signing the wrong instructions and actually telling people to drive like muppets, they're perfect. I'm not sure what got me so worked up.

Dermot

causal

mackerski wrote:

What you really need if you want to go gantry on these junctions is something like this.

Precisely right.

causal

causal

DubTony wrote:

I've just come back from Bray and took the M11 because I had to check it out again. I was right. You can easily take the ramp and bridge / hill at 100 .... as long as there's nothing else around.

My tests (in the name of research) have shown that ramp is quite capable of 120kmh
However, I wouldn't feel safe going over it at 100kmh with traffic in the other lane (partailly because I don't trust other drivers ability to 'keep in lane')

Maybe Mackerski has a point in saying that this is now just a spur off the motorway. Having said that it is still the main route into Dublin (city) from the south.
On balance I agree with DubTony that it should be a much more effortless transition to 'continue' along the onto the N11.

causal

DubTony

causal wrote:

My tests (in the name of research) have shown that ramp is quite capable of 120kmh

causal

You lunatic .... { comment removed for the sake of everyone's sanity}.

Aidan1

Quick question.

As far as I was aware, the rules of the road stipulated that one was supposed to drive in the left hand lane of Motorways/Dual carraigeways, only using the outside lane for overtaking. However, this came as news* to my significant other, who, like many Irish motorists, prefers to treat both (or all three) lanes the same. As far as I was concerned also, undertaking (passing on the inside) was illegal here also, but as we were sitting in the outside lane at 120kmh, several cars passed on the inside.

Is there any written source that stipulates that the position here is the same as the UK, other than the general 'keep left' instruction?

*Not that we had an argument or anything

mackerski

Aidan1 wrote:

Is there any written source that stipulates that the position here is the same as the UK, other than the general 'keep left' instruction?

The Road traffic acts, such as this one. (look for "drive on left" and "overtaking"). There's another SI (I think) that sets out the penalty points to be awarded for failure to keep left. That's not in effect yet, unfortunately.

The "Rules of the Road" booklet is also pretty clear on this matter, as I recall. Without wanting to be judgemental, how long has she been driving that she managed to miss out on this pretty crucial piece of knowledge while learning?

Dermot

Aidan1

Thanks Mackerski - that oughta do it. Who knew legislation would actually come in useful?

Aidan1

She's been driving over three years, with quite a bit of Motorway/Dual carriageway driving thrown in (by Irish standards anyway). In general shes quite a good driver, apart from this. Apparently, she was never told, and my telling her was the first time she'd heard of the idea. Thinking back though, when I did my test I was never informed of this either (it was 10 years ago though). But where I'm from (Cork) it was regarded as common knowledge, and the behaviour of drivers on the roads there would indicate that, for the most part.

The really worrying thing is that she asked around her office (in Dublin city centre) and no one else had heard of the idea either. Perhaps the hugely comprehensive and highly relevant Irish driver testing system is missing out on a few minor details? Such as driving above 50kmh, for example ...

loyatemu

keep left is definitely in the rules of the road but i don't think undertaking is a specific offence. i've never heard of anyone being prosecuted for it anyway.

[edit]
just read the link above - ok it is in the rules, but I've still never heard of anyone being prosecuted.

mackerski

The problem with this country is that, in a spirit of efficiency, the authorities prefer to attribute all accidents to three specific offences and enforce against only those offences.

It's no wonder people manage to drive around ignorant of basic road traffic law.

Dermot

DubTony

mackerski wrote:

The problem with this country is that, in a spirit of efficiency, the authorities prefer to attribute all accidents to three specific offences and enforce against only those offences.

It's no wonder people manage to drive around ignorant of basic road traffic law.

Dermot

And these three specific offences would be speeding, more speeding and an awful lot of speeding. Sorry Dermot. You're wrong. It's four. You forgot drunk driving.

DubTony

A few years ago my wife was in the canteen in work at a table where one of the guys complained he was never going to drive on the M50 again. When he was asked why he said he was sick of people driving on his bumper and flashing their lights. Somebody asked what speed he was doing. When he said 60 mph everyone seemd to think that it was a reasonable speed to drive at and that he shouldn't be hassled.
My wife asked him which lane he was driving in. It turned out that the fella always drove in the overtaking lane because the cars in the other lane were always going slower.
He had no clue that he should drive in the left lane. Five of the seven other people were also amazed at this piece of news. The general opinion was that you could drive in whatever lane you wanted and that it made no difference.

Training, people, training I tell ya.

Victor

DubTony wrote:

Training, people, training I tell ya.

Cattle prods and command detonated landmines in the overtaking lane more like.