Rifled shotgun barrels, whats the story?

Slug chucker

What’s the story on rifled shotgun barrels in this country, legal or not?
Are they 12 ga shotguns or .729" calibre rifles.
Can you legally possess and fire 12ga slugs in this country for hunting purposes?

Sparks

You can legally possess and fire slugs allright, but not for hunting - that's apparently right out of bounds.

Dunno about the rifled shotguns thing - I thought the defining difference between shotguns and rifles was the rifling?

Irishglockfan

Slug chucker wrote:

What’s the story on rifled shotgun barrels in this country, legal or not?

Have seen a couple sold with multi pak remmy or mossy shotguns.Again it seems to be a thing that our law hasnt caught up with.Are spare barrels supposed to be stamped with it's parent reciver?Yes/no /maybe is the answer.the Gaurds wanted my spare barrel stamped.[Did it myself with a dremel tool] Others say it is unnecessary.Again it all comes down to the ambiguity of Irish gun laws,not saying what is legal,prohibited or how or what you require to aquire the item legally.

Can you legally possess and fire 12ga slugs in this country for hunting purposes?[

Well the slugs can be bought all right.Hunting...Deer as far as I know a nono.
Quite dumb,because it would be a safer option near built up areas,where a rifle bullet could carry alot further.
"vermin" and targets seem to be the most common useage

Slug chucker

Glock fan,
Why not for deer, their well able for the job in ft-lbs and rifled slug guns can print 2-3" group at 100 yards. Look at the Remy core lokt sabots, 1900 fps!!
Spare barrels for most pumps don't have serials, numbers on the receiver.
I reckon another bit of a grey area in the law.

woody

I have a remington 870 with a Rifled Choke and use it for target shooting but cannot seem to source the slugs anymore, if you can find a place gimme a shout I was using either winchester or remi slugs and had great accuracy.

My weapon is set up with a Ghost Telescopic Sight and is effective from testing to 150 Metres with pretty decent groups.

Irishglockfan

Slug
i know they are exellent for deer at close range.have dropped a few of them myself with them outside this great little country.
It is more to do with [1] the grey outdated firearms laws [2] the deer hunters and organisations not recognising that this was a viable alternative to rifles, or some snobbishness,cant have the common riffraff out with shotguns shooting /poaching the deer,and maybe there is/was a political thing there as well.That if these were common it could be said then that large calibre rifles were unnecessary as shotgun slugs would do the job as well. [3] at the time that the"ban" on slugs was brought out ,slugs were mostly 12ga round ball like from a musket.30 yrs on the technology has improved dramatically and they are capable of rifle like accuracy,if not the range.Yes it is another grey area.
I did the serial nos just to shut them up and stop bothering me about an "unliscensed" barrel.It is pointless arguing the law with some of these people.It's their interpertation or nothing.

Woody
The main importer for ammo in Ireland has them.Best is to order thru your local dealer a supply.He should know who they are.They wont sell a box or two.Buy about 200/300 and get your dealer to store them for you,buy them out as needed.

Slug chucker

Woody,
Rifled chokes are really best for saboted slugs. The problem with the ones you get in Ireland is that their designed for smooth bore and come with a pre-cast rifling in the slug (Brenneke design)that is designed to cause them to rotate as they go up the bore. When you use a rifled choke in conjunction with this it can lead to problems as the choke will shred the slugs rifled contour. The slug can shatter the moment it leaves the muzzle due to the rifled choke attempting to alter the spin to its rotation and the sudden constriction caused by the choke. You might have noticed that they kick like an SOB when using the choke?
Remington make some great sabot slugs like the buckhammer and Core-Lokt, all very pricey in the US so you can imagine how much they would cost by the time they reach us. Importers will only sell this ammunition by the case.
What kind of accuracy are you getting at 100 yards?

Irishglockfan

Rifled chokes are really best for saboted slugs. The problem with the ones you get in Ireland is that their designed for smooth bore and come with a pre-cast rifling in the slug (Brenneke design)that is designed to cause them to rotate as they go up the bore.

Sorry folks,this is a bit of a myth.From what Rottweil who make the Brennecke
say on this was that the grooves are for are to actually "collapse" the slug as it goes thru a choked barrel.BTW slugs can be fired out of full choke in proof barrell with no damage whatever.Remember also that the Brenneke design is now well over a centuary old,and it isnt designed for match like accuracy.It was a short range huntng cartridge accurate out to about 60 meters over a shotgun bead sight.


When you use a rifled choke in conjunction with this it can lead to problems as the choke will shred the slugs rifled contour.

Very true,the slug chokes are a new invention as is the sabot round.Which is designed for the rifled barrel and choke.
Ironic however,the sabot design slug was taken from tank ammo,which use mostly AP sabot rounds.Yet the most modern tanks out there IE USA M1A1 Abrahms, German Leopard 2 and British Challenger2 all have smoothbore guns.

One other solution I could give here if you are using the slugs for target practise is to get a slug mould in appropiate calibre from LEE Precision.They make one esp designed to convert 12GA low brass trap loads into slug loads.
open the crimp ,pour out the shot, reinsert the slug,recrimp and you have a good target load.It has a "key" in its base that provides the spin,nothing to catch anywhere,it is a smoothside unit and is very good in a slug rifled barrel.

Slug chucker

Irishglockfan,
Hmmm, don't know if I agree about the slug contour, I've seen with my own eyes factory hollow base slugs shatter to bits and splatter the target at 50meters when used with rifling.
In a lot of the sales promo they say that they are designed to rotate as a stabilising action during flight.

Lee key drive slugs become very unstable at any kind of range and usually keyhole by 100 meters.
They Lyman 525 is the best one to cast and the best to buy complete is the sabot technologies.
http://www.lymanproducts.com/lymanproducts/casting.htm
http://www.shotgunslugs.com

I do not recommend opening a cartridge and inserting a slug payload, slugs and shot behave totally different inside the barrel. I have been warned so many times about this by many people who reload slugs.
This is really dangerous activity.

Irishglockfan

Hmmm, don't know if I agree about the slug contour, I've seen with my own eyes factory hollow base slugs shatter to bits and splatter the target at 50meters when used with rifling.
In a lot of the sales promo they say that they are designed to rotate as a stabilising action during flight.

Thats my point exactly.Brennecke was NEVER designed for a rifled barrel.Altho there was I belive a double barrel"rifle"? specifically for brenneke slugs when they first came out 100 years ago.It had very long and slow groves and in the end didnt do much for its improvement to accuracy.My feeling on this grooves on slugs is they are a sales gimmick,as are the "slug chokes".How can they stabilise the slug in flight?A bullet gets its stability and accuracy from the groves in the barrel.

Lee key drive slugs become very unstable at any kind of range and usually keyhole by 100 meters.

Which to all intents and purposes is about the practical range for a slug anyway.
They never were or are intended for rifle like ranges[over 100 meters]
They are a compromise load for use in shotguns to give it abit more range and killing power within a 100 metre range.They are never intended for match like accuracy above those ranges.Even if they had them under that range as well.
Yet to have any keyhole on me,

do not recommend opening a cartridge and inserting a slug payload, slugs and shot behave totally different inside the barrel. I have been warned so many times about this by many people who reload slugs.
This is really dangerous activity

ANY reloading is dangerous,if you dont know what you are doing.However I will say for myself that;
1] have been doing this for years,with no trouble. I cant be THAT lucky!
2] unless you add more or ,reduce the powder charge and use LOW BRASS clay target shells,and do not remove the shot wad cup.It should function no different from a shot load.The slug sits into the shot cup wad.It has no contact with the barrel[unfifled] as it is in a shot cup.Same as any modern shot load.
3] check the details of the shot load powder charge and a slug powder charge
for rottweil brenneke and their trap load it is about the same.
4] I doubt Lee or Lyman in product litagitation concious USA would bring out a product that could leave them open to a multi million dollar lawsuit,and advertise its use in a dangerous way.

i could see problems with the following.
1] Using a gun that is out of proof,
2] damascuss barrelled,and proofed for black powder shells or light nitro loads
3] you changed the powder load and the slug became stuck,reloading and firing again thus blowing up the gun.

Again I am expressing a personal opinion based on facts related to my experiances.So as usual let the buyer beware.

Mech1

I Hear you Chucked a Slug About 9 months ago that was a Ten X

Slug chucker

Lee and Lyman supply with the moulds the correct load data for people using their products, they don't suggest opening a cartridge with a powder and primer of unknown burn rates and stuff their slug into it and re-crimp it.
A good load:
Lyman 525 slug
WAA12F114 Wad
25.0 grs Herco powder
Win 209 primer
Remington Unibody SP Plastic hull
Barrel perssure when fired 10,900 PSI
Cronyed at an average muzzle velocity of 1210 fps
Result: a slug that in the right gun will group under 2.5" at 100 yards

A low brass opened cartridge:
Lyman 525 slug
Wad unknown?
Powder unknown?
209 primer unknown?
Hull configuration possibly known?
Barrel pressure unknown???
Result: A cartridge that could blow up in your face.

Sorry if this looks like a pop at you Irishglockfan it's not, I really mean that.
It's just other people read these forums and although stuff worked out ok for you it could really put someone else in harms way.
End of thread.

Slug chucker

Mech1,
Yea that one was a bit of a winner, but it'll be blanks from now on

woody

Slug chucker wrote:

Woody,
Rifled chokes are really best for saboted slugs. The problem with the ones you get in Ireland is that their designed for smooth bore and come with a pre-cast rifling in the slug (Brenneke design)that is designed to cause them to rotate as they go up the bore. When you use a rifled choke in conjunction with this it can lead to problems as the choke will shred the slugs rifled contour. The slug can shatter the moment it leaves the muzzle due to the rifled choke attempting to alter the spin to its rotation and the sudden constriction caused by the choke. You might have noticed that they kick like an SOB when using the choke?
Remington make some great sabot slugs like the buckhammer and Core-Lokt, all very pricey in the US so you can imagine how much they would cost by the time they reach us. Importers will only sell this ammunition by the case.
What kind of accuracy are you getting at 100 yards?

My groupings are pretty tight at 100 Metres the diameter i am not sure but say a good 2 to 3 inch grouping, and yes there is a hell of a kick but is easily controlled on the remi 870 with a pistol grip

coder600

Guys,

found this board and read comments with interest, so maybe someone can help me.
I have 12ga and 20 ga. shotguns (both smoothbore)
I want to use either for boar hunting in Europe using slug ammunition.
Whats the story about ammunition for this in Ireland.
a) can you get slug ammunition for use in smoothbores in Ireland -
b) Or do you have to source a 'rifled' barrel for your shotgun and go thru the hassle of registering the new barrels as a seperate firearm
or such like bureaucracy ! and hence the appropriate slug.

any help appreciated.

Irishglockfan

can you get slug ammunition for use in smoothbores in Ireland

YES .It just takes some shopping around or buying a batch of 500 or more on special order thru your gundealer from the main ammo importer in Ireland.

Or do you have to source a 'rifled' barrel for your shotgun

Unless you are going to just use sabot rounds and are trying to use your shotgun as a poor mans big calibre rifle and go to do some target shooting as well.It is up to you.But you will find on the continent most folk use the Brennecke style slug in their smoothbores.In either drillings[SXS with a large cal rifle barrel underneath.] Or doubles with shortish barrels and rifle sights.

You can also use the sabot round from a smooth bore.WITH NO CHOKE!!! However the brenneke round CAN be used in a choked gun.However remember the slug in any shape or form loses its power and accuracy after 100meters.After that you need a rifle.It really is ideal for european wood style hunting.Use it within it's limits and it is fine.INMHO the rifled slug barrels dont do very much for accuracy improvement.

and go thru the hassle of registering the new barrels as a seperate firearm
or such like bureaucracy !

This is another obscure area of Irish gun law.Yes,No,maybe,if,but...depends on which firearms officer you talk to.Mine insisted that my barrel had the matching reciver no stamped on them.Others said it is unnecessary.BUT AFIK no one has ever insisted on a spare barrel being registerd as a seperate firearm.