[Article] Luas section closed after collision

Hagar

All joking aside, this is getting very serious.

I know trains operate on a level crossing basis as they cannot stop but Luas trams are different as they mix regularly with ordinary traffic on ordinary streets.
If I crash into a stationary car which is blocking a box junction I am at fault as I am deemed to be travelling too fast to stop in time. I accept that the driver in the box junction is committing a traffic offence but is it punishable by death as in "death by un-stoppable Luas"?
How long before we have our first fatality?
Are the Luases travelling faster than their ability to stop?
If so should they be on the road at that speed?

sliabh

Hagar wrote:

All joking aside, this is getting very serious.

Damn right. We are now up to one a day. By the end of the week the system will be out of action.

But I don't think the problem is the trams. Tram systems operate just fine in the rest of the world so until someone convinces me that ours has some odd Irish specific traffic faults I am going to assume it's motorists at fault.

I think there are two problems. The first is some drivers are not familiar with the system, and the second is that some people are becoming too used to the trams. The latter ones are then assuming they know what they can get away with around the system.

As for what is to be done to help out now, I think publicity is key. They should announce that (for a short period) there will be increased Garda monitoring of critical junctions. Motorists acting the maggot will get hauled in straight away before they can cause an accident. After a couple of weeks of "x motorists were ticketed for driving without due care and attention around the Luas" people will be more cautious and respectful of the trams. Then after a few months there will be reports of prosecutions in some cases (for those that did cause accidents, or nearly did so).

The same approach worked when Bus lanes were introduced. I remember people thinking that drivers will not stay out of them. But today they are generally respected. Why? Because there was a visible Garda presence when they were introduced and people found themselves in court (my mother included). These days the Guards just have to do occasional checks and things seem to work reasonably well.

High profile enforcement, even if it is just for a while, is the key.

A Dub in Glasgo

Hagar, I think you are totally misunderstanding of the whole road/rail interface. Cars should not be on the rail tracks unless they are obeying traffic lights and the route is clear. There are no if and buts. The car drivers are totally at fault and it is a sad reflection on the ability of car drivers to control their cars and their knowledge of the rules.

enterprise

sliabh wrote:

A less drastic solution is to use the Garda traffic watch number: 1890 205 805

And before the "the Guards are uselsss" posts start, I was plesantly surprised with what happened with I called in a week ago. Cycling into town I met a BMW driver coming the wrong way around a roundabout. His attitude was brazen and unrepentant with I asked him what he was at (I was told to "piss off" and that "sometimes" he went round roundabouts that way). So when I got home I called the traffic watch number and gave the details.

They asked me would I be willing to make a statement which I said yes to. So last Monday 2 Guards called to my house to follow up. After a discussion I said that I didn't feel it should go to court (they have more serious traffic and crime issues to follow up on) but I did make a formal statement. The Guard was pretty good and said that the formal recomendation would probably be for a caution (based on my position) and that he personally would "put a flea in the ear" of the driver. The Guard is to get back to me after the chat has happened.

So if you see someone breaking red lights or otherwise acting the maggot get their number and report them. The Guards won't take them to court unless you push for it, but they will talk to them and say that this time you are getting a caution, but the next time it could be a summons. Less people will be hurt and it will put the shíts up 90% of the people approached this way.

That number again: 1890 205 805

Thanks for that number, I had been meaning to look for it. I saw it when I was travelling (as a passenger) from Galway to Waterford last Saturday but didn't have the time to note the number.

Now the number's armed in my phone, so if a motorist does something stupid in front of me I will be giving the boys in blue a shout!

jlang

From my knowledge of the recent crashes they were not caused by stationary cars blocking yellow boxes but by cars breaking the red light trying to rush across the junction before the Luas gets there (ie moving cars that were completely in the wrong to have crossed the stop line regardless of where they had planned to stop). If there's been that many actual crashes, my concern is for the Luas drivers who must each see so many near misses that they might get affected in the head.

BrianD

Are the cameras on these junctions? Putting a garda on each junction would be a worthwhile exercise. Should have been done from the start. It is interesting to note that the Red line had been running a full schedule for a number of weeks before carrying passengers. During this period there were few or no accidents. Why are we getting almost one a day all of a sudden? What has changed?

In response to another poster the trams run at 50kph in the city that's 30mph. It would be very hard for a tram or car to stop at that speed if a car crosses its path at 90 degrees. Afterall these junctions are no different to any other signal controlled cross roads in the junction. In fact they are simpler as there is only crossing traffic and no turning traffic.

BrianD3

As already mentioned, there is a major culture of red light breaking in Ireland, and especially in Dublin. I believe it has gotten worse in the last 5 years. It's now the norm to go through red lights 5 or more seconds after the light has turned red. Drivers who actually stop for red lights risk being rear ended by the vehicles behind because the muppets behind don't expect anyone to stop at red lights. Also, if you do stop for a red light some asshole behind may get out of his car at you and berate you for holding him up by having the *nerve* to stop at a red light (has happened to me)

This behaviour results in countless "near misses" every day as road users take avoiding action to prevent collisions with other road users who have broken red lights. Obviously, the LUAS is less capable of taking avoiding action so we're seeing collisions instead of near misses.

I have no sympathy at all for someone who is maimed or killed after driving through a red light in front of the LUAS. Better that they hit the LUAS and kill themselves rather than drive into the side of my car and kill me.

BrianD3

dowlingm

what about speed humps on the roads crossing LUAS? (At junctions where accidents/incidents have happened). I hate humps where they have no safety value but they might deter the red light runners.

Hagar

I think there are a couple of key points here.

The standard of driving is appalling.
Trams are allowed travel at speeds greater than that at which cars are allowed and it takes trams take a longer to stop than cars.
Cars and trams are sharing road space and junctions unlike the bus lane scernario where buses and cars are seperated.

Accidents had to follow - this was predictable. Where are the Gardaí ?

sliabh

Hagar wrote:

I think there are a couple of key points here.

Trams are allowed travel at speeds greater than that at which cars are allowed...

I am not sure you can state that. The trams do no more than 50kph in built up areas (you can see the tram speed limit signs around town, or stand behind the driver an shoulder surf his speedo to check this). This is the same speed as motorists. And I'd have a lot more faith in the tram drivers keeping to their limits than motorists.

Crossley

BrianD3 wrote:

As already mentioned, there is a major culture of red light breaking in Ireland, and especially in Dublin.

Agreed. It's not speed cameras per se that we need here it's red-light cameras. Cameras at each crossing would dramatically reduce offenders. There's a test installation in Kilmainham for the last couple of years but nothing else. On which point, why do we need to have test installations when these units are tried and tested in other countries for many years? :rolleyes:

enterprise

The max permitted speed of the trams while running on street is 50kph. However they rarely get above 30kph due to dozy car drivers and people crossing the road.

I hate to say it - what we need is a few people killed by a tram. Then the public will begin to respect the trams.

Frank Grimes

enterprise wrote:

The full Red Line timetable is badly needed - and soon, not the middle-end of Nov from what I have heard.

According to the notice boards at the stops, it is running at the full timetable now.

BrianD

Hagar wrote:

I think there are a couple of key points here.

The standard of driving is appalling.
Trams are allowed travel at speeds greater than that at which cars are allowed and it takes trams take a longer to stop than cars.
Cars and trams are sharing road space and junctions unlike the bus lane scernario where buses and cars are seperated.

Accidents had to follow - this was predictable. Where are the Gardaí ?

Agreed the standard of driving is appaling.
Can you back up your statement that trams are allowed to travel faster than cars? Trams can stop faster than a car. The speed is not relevant as the car is travelling across the path of a tram. The driver reflexes will be too slow. The speed will largely dictate the force of the collision not whether it will happen or not.
Your last point does not make sense. Trams and cars do not need segregation but as it happens in most areas the tram has its own lane. all The accidents appear to have occured at signal controlled cross roads . If it there wasn't a tram line the offending driver would have hit a car, truck or a bus.

sliabh

Watch out here come the politicians: http://www.breakingnews.ie/2004/10/27/story173053.html

PD Senator calls for more warning signs on Luas lines
27/10/2004 - 10:39:57

Progressive Democrats Senator Tom Morrissey has called on the Rail Procurement Agency to increase the number of warning signs along the routes of the LUAS tram lines in Dublin.

The call follows a spate of accidents in which cars have collided with the trams at busy road junctions.

The driver of a car was hospitalised following the latest crash on Capel Street this morning, while four people were hospitalised yesterday after a crash at the junction between Benburb Street and Blackhall Place.

Mr Morrissey said more warning signs were needed in order to prevent a more serious accident.

"I don't think the signs are adequate across the various lines," he said. "Obviously, it's an accident waiting to happen. I think we have to get out there and do more to make motorists aware of the potential hazards."

"Obviously, it's an accident waiting to happen." - Hah! I think the horse has bolted on the senators cliche!

Hagar

If trams are allowed travel currently at 50kph that does in fact exceed the 30mph limit on cars. I don't know for a fact that trams can stop faster than a car I rashly assumed that their stopping distance was greater. Sorry.

Luas driver reflexes should be no slower than is necessary to do the job. At lot of accidents occur at signalled controlled junctions between other vehicles so I am not surprised to see the tradition continuing. Many posters have suggested that Gardaí be deployed for a period as they were when the bus lanes were introduced, that's the sort of Garda presence I mean.

BrianD

"I don't think the signs are adequate across the various lines," he said. "Obviously, it's an accident waiting to happen. I think we have to get out there and do more to make motorists aware of the potential hazards."

Safety awareness should always be encouraged but what's inadequate about a red light on a set of traffic lights??

Hagar, the only problem with a tram doing a dead stop is that the passengers tend to go flying so I would imagine that they try some sort of controlled stop. Perhaps any Connex employees reading the board might like to offer their opinion?

HashSlinging

In Amsterdam there are a couple of deaths per year from tourists not familiar with the tram system, I think it is just a matter of time before we see the first fatality on our tracks.

MrPudding

Maybe instead of extra warning signs we could have a new light on the traffic lights. We could have a blue one above the red. So we would have green for go, amber for prepare to stop (yes that is actually what it means, not accelerate,) red for 3 more cars please (so no change there,) and then we could have blue for stop. Do you think that would work?

If you run an red light and get hit by a tram fcuk you, I am glad I hope you are never capable of driving again. I just hope you have no-one in the car with you.

This will continue until someone gets killed. And if someone does run a red light and gets killed by a tram then the blame should rest firmly with them as long as the tram driver was obeying his signals and was driving as he shoul dhave been. I hope these light jumpers get charged, or at least their insurance companies, for the damage to the trams. I have absolutely no sympathy for them and to try to blame the tram drivers for hitting someone running a red light is pathetic. Only someone with a habit of running red lights could seriously suggest such a thing.

MrP

fran

What happens when a car is involved in a crash with the luas? If the passengers sue the luas for injuries, does the luas then sue the cars owners insurance??

MrPudding

fran wrote:

What happens when a car is involved in a crash with the luas? If the passengers sue the luas for injuries, does the luas then sue the cars owners insurance??

Please God.

MrP

BrianD

Well they are already testing red light cameras in Dublin and if you break a light you will be looking at 2 (or 5) points on your licence. Plus if you are in the wrong Connex will be looking for the material and personal injury damages from your insurance on top of your own claim. You might be virtually uninsurable after such a crash (if you are in the wrong of course).

mackerski

Hagar wrote:

If trams are allowed travel currently at 50kph that does in fact exceed the 30mph limit on cars.

It exceeds it by 2km/h. Until January, when cars will gain parity. I can't see it being significant, can you?

A Dub in Glasgo

The cause of these accidents is very simple, car drivers who do not obey red lights!!!! There is no way a LUAS should do an emergency break application in these circumstances. Many many more people will be injured. It is far better that the driver of the car is injured/killed than LUAS passengers. How anyone can blame LUAS for these collisions is beyond me. Connex should be going after the car drivers for the damage caused and the consequential loss of business.

There are some serious issues with the car driving standard of some people.

magpie

Putting a garda on each junction would be a worthwhile exercise

And how much extra is that going to cost the tax-payer in shift allowances/overtime for the Guards? Remember we (the taxpayers) have already forked out €775 million for these stupid trams.

Hagar

mackerski wrote:

It exceeds it by 2km/h. Until January, when cars will gain parity. I can't see it being significant, can you?

Nahh, to be absolutely honest I was nit-picking there. I was on the ropes, what's a guy to do?

sliabh

magpie wrote:

And how much extra is that going to cost the tax-payer in shift allowances/overtime for the Guards? Remember we (the taxpayers) have already forked out €775 million for these stupid trams.

Fair enough, lets just call the whole thing a failure and shut it down.

I am sure we can get a good price for the rolling stock (though we can't really claim they have never been crashed). Someone call the guys that ripped up the tracks in the 50's to see if they can do the same thing again.

Everyone that was squeezing themselves into the trams every rush hour will just have to realise they were being selfish in trying to use a more efficient and cost effective form of transport.

I mean what were the government of the day thinking? Taking space off motorists, who are (rightly) the best users or road space. We really should just have used the money to buy cars for people that were using public transport. For that price (€775m) we could have got over 30,000 cars.

That would have solved Dublin's traffic problems, and there wouldn't be these problems of trams damaging poor kids bikes.

magpie

For that price (€775m) we could have got over 30,000 cars.

Or more to the point 15km of metro. But I take it you're being sarcastic.

MrPudding

magpie wrote:

Or more to the point 15km of metro. But I take it you're being sarcastic.

Which would get people from Sandyford and Tallaght to town and back how?



MrP

jonny68

On the whole though the LUAS (barring accidents) is a good service and about ****in time this city had a Tram system,having travelled on both lines there does seem to be a noticeable difference,on the Tallaght line you`ll get your sumbags (or chavs as the Brits call them) and on the Sandyford line you have the D4 posh knob types (****) some difference....