US Presidential Election

It wasn't me!

Um... What the hell has your being anti-choice got to do with anything regarding the war?

Barry Aldwell

Kerry

It wasn't me! wrote:

Um... What the hell has your being anti-choice got to do with anything regarding the war?

I dunno what he's trying to do, but there will probably be a lot of people shouting at him pretty soon (you know the type, "I repect everyone's opinions, as long as they are the same as mine"). Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go hide behind a rock before the flaming starts

It wasn't me!

I don't think it will. It's just too goddamn irrelevat to flame! I was going to and then I realised, it's like attacking a paper bag floating around the place! What are you doing? You can't flame it because it's just random nonsense! It just really has nothing to do with anything!

I mean seriously, "I am a very bad person and I do it on purpose".
WTF?!
And this guy is talking about being anti-abortion?!

Barry Aldwell

Kerry

Like I said:

Barry Aldwell wrote:

(you know the type, "I repect everyone's opinions, as long as they are the same as mine")

Raphael

I suspect jack may have been trolling....

Move over there Barry, that rocks big enough to protect both of us

It wasn't me!

The scary thing is he seems to mean what he says.

Aonghus, if you're hiding behind the rock with Barry, and I can't figure out how to flame him, then chances are nobody's going to do anything. Nobody else flames people.

Crash

time for an opinion that will piss a lot (and i mean a LOT) of people off: here it goes:

9/11 was NOT the be all and end all of terror attacks. roughly 3000 died. there are two reasons the American public (as opposed to the government) reacted like they did:

1)America had NEVER before had to deal with a foreign terrorist attack on its home soil. EVER. at least that i've been able to come up with. If anyone mentions oklahoma i hit you in the head but i can bet someone (looking at Forde) will say something stupid like that.

2)9/11 was a ****ing media circus. its impact wasnt that 3000 people died, its impact was that people were sitting at home as the second plane crashed into tower 2 and saw it live - it was fed over every station and fed on peoples emotions - fed on fear and hatred and bush allowed them an outlet for it.

as for how this election affects us - oil would be one - the second main point that would affect us is how much our neutrality changes over the course of bush'es second term in office - will we drift further towards our "american allies" til we're no longer neutral at all?

and finally - Forde do you simply live inside your head where its all full of magical happy bunnies and stuff? just asking...

It wasn't me!

Exactly. And it was the first time the American public ever had to wake up and realise, "wait, this can happen to us too", as opposed to their earlier indifference and their attitude of, "terror and slaughter don't affect us, only bad countries". Though having seen the outcome in the slaughter of thousands more innocents in the cause of the "War on Terror" I don't know if I can say it's a good thing. I liked the Americans better when they weren't trying to kill everything that they didn't like.

StupidLikeAFox

Kerry

Bazookatone wrote:

But ideas like cancelling third world debt, are good ideas.

Cancelling third world debt will do nothing. What happens when the country continues buying arms for war and stuff? If the debt is gonna be cancelled new governments will have to be installed and whatnot

It wasn't me!

And we saw just how well that worked in Iraq. :rolleyes:

abraham lincoln

ah, the United States of America! We invented democracy!
Come to america to esceape persecutions in europe! Be they religious, ethnic or other wise. (but remember to be truely free in this country you have to be white, christian and rich!)
This is the land of equality! Every man is equal (though we didn't outlaw slavery till 87 years after the founding of our great country and coloured people were not considered equal or have the right to vote up on till 35 years ago)
This is the land of the free! You can practise what you want(thats why gay marriages are soon to be illeagal)
In this country everyone has a vote( but a Presidential candidate can be elected to the white house without haveing the popular vote)
We are the self proclaimed leaders of the free world. it is our self proclaimed duty to preach and enforce democracy on the rest of the world (we see no similarities between what we're doing in the middle east now and what the russians did in eastern europe after world war two which we denounced and nearly went to war over)
America the land of the free (but also arrogance, ignorance and naivety)

It wasn't me!

Don't forget hypocrisy.

StupidLikeAFox

Kerry

It wasn't me! wrote:

And we saw just how well that worked in Iraq. :rolleyes:

what im sayin is ya cant just cancel third world debt, walk away and expect it to develop into a prosperous country. Do i have to spell it out for ya?

Raphael

Yes you can you idiot. THe problem is that all those 3rd world countries are ignoring their own needs and economies to produce cash crops, in order to repay their debts. Remove the debts, and they can focus on improving their economy

Take a simple example. Aaron wants to go and get a degree as a mature student. But unfortunatly, he owes Bill a lot of money. So Aaron has to get a job at minimum wage for Chris, and give all his income to Bill. This means that Aaron cannot go back to college, ans improve is life

Was that simple enough, or do you require hand-puppets

StupidLikeAFox

Kerry

take a country like zimbabwe as an exampl. with a corrupt government, all the high up boys in it are stinkin rich from corruption, the government is paying for wars and the like, they ran all the white ppl and gave their land to unskilled black ppl who cant run a farm. Now take away their debt, the boys at the top arent gonna give up their lavish lifestyles, the farmers are gonna destroy the land and reduce the crop output, and straight away we're back to square one, with the countries borrowing to give their people emergency food.

Do ya know how many countries in africa are fighting wars against rebels and tribes and the like? the governments are funding and feeding armies and not taking care of their citizens. Organisations like trocaire and goal etc are the only thing keeping a lot of ppl alive.

So actually raphael thats TOO simple a view to have, as it isnt all black and white as take away the countries debt and everything will work out.

Raphael

ColHol wrote:

the farmers are gonna destroy the land and reduce the crop output

Hence utterly destroying their own livelihood. At the moment they would destroy crops as protest because they're growing coffee etc, which they don't need. If they were growing food, they wouldn't destroy it, as that would be stupid

ColHol wrote:

Do ya know how many countries in africa are fighting wars against rebels and tribes and the like?

Do you know why their rebelling? Because they don't have food and they're being forced to grow crops to sell. That's the root of the problem

ColHol wrote:

Organisations like trocaire and goal etc are the only thing keeping a lot of ppl alive.

I know. Because their governments aren't. Why? Because they don't have the money

ColHol wrote:

So actually raphael thats TOO simple a view to have, as it isnt all black and white as take away the countries debt and everything will work out.

Yes, but shades of grey are merely combinations of black and white, and hence can be reduced backwards to the root of the problem. Obscenely large national debts in this case

StupidLikeAFox

Kerry

Before now zimbabwe was mismanaging money, they were making a surplus and exportin food, which was mismanaged by the dodgy governments, squandered. Now take away the debt and walk away, theres still a dodgy government. Your jus giving them more money to throw away. Cancelling the debt may be a significant step in turning the fortunes of a country around, but it has to be part of a wider programme to rid the country of corruption and war and whatnot. Dont you agree?

Raphael

No. corruption is human nature, it exists in our coutry as well. The fact remains that we put them into this sceanario, so we should free them from it by forgiving the debt. We have to give them a chance, they never had one.

StupidLikeAFox

Kerry

im all for giving them a chance, i never actually said i was against cancelling the debt. Most of these countries are under the same leadership that ran up all this debt, so why forget all about it and let them create another mess that they must be bailed out of? why give them a second chance in the hope that theyll change? most of these guys arent exactly fretting about their millions of starving while theyre lining their pockets. why not make it a bit less risky and install a reliable government, or put in place a program to prevent the same mistakes being repeated? I just think its too easy an option to cancel the debt and HOPE for the best

abraham lincoln

thread name to be changed to Raphael verses Colhol third world debate...

StupidLikeAFox

Kerry

haha, feel free to contribute......









(as long as ya agree with me)

PurpleFistMixer

I think possibly the problem with this debate here, that I see, is that they're arguing about slightly different things.
Just because the government is screwing a country it doesn't mean that everyone else should go "oh, look that government is bad. ergo that country and everyone in it is bad and we hate them, so we'll just let them be in serious debt".
I mean, can they not just realise that these countries need help, and there's an opportunity to help without actually KILLING anyone, which is rather nice. But I suppose there's no country in the world that'd turn down money which they feel is theirs, even if the person owing it them really can't pay it...
They should give them a chance at least...

Raphael

Holligan, The problem isn't debts that leaders ran up, that isn't the issue. No one is saying we should bail those governments out

The problem is that we went in to these countries, took over their land, then sold it back to them. THAT'S the debts they have to pay off

abraham lincoln

ColHol wrote:

they ran all the white ppl and gave their land to unskilled black ppl who cant run a farm.

ok, that is whats called revenge, colm. for a few hundred years of having to pay rent on land that, by right, should be theirs but was taken from them by europians who were slightly more advanced then they were during or after the age of exploiration. we did it to the english, well tried to quite often but failed equaly as often.

Piste

Raphael wrote:

The problem is that we went in to these countries, took over their land, then sold it back to them. THAT'S the debts they have to pay off

We?

Piste

abraham lincoln wrote:

taken from them by europians who were slightly more advanced then they were during or after the age of exploration.

Slightly?

It wasn't me!

First world countries I would assume.

By the way, anyone want to give me free good rep? I want another little green dot. Only need 60. I'll return the favour to anyone who does.

Oh yeah, rep prostitution.

Aoibheann

It wasn't me! wrote:

First world countries I would assume.

By the way, anyone want to give me free good rep? I want another little green dot. Only need 60. I'll return the favour to anyone who does.

Oh yeah, rep prostitution.

there ya go....

StupidLikeAFox

Kerry

hold on a sec, this is gettin way outta hand here. If you'd all stop pickin out little points of my arguments and see the bigger picture im trying to say. Basically what im saying is im all for helpin out these countries. I just dont think cancelling the debt alone will solve anything.

Now if the debt was cancelled, proper structure was put in place to ensure the extra money was well spent and NOT pumped into wars and whatnot, basically if the whole thing was managed properly then happy days, whether it means a new government or a commitment from the existing government. Im not convinced of wiping out the debt and leaving the country to its own devices. For one the banks are gonna want reassurance that this loss their making is gonna be worthwhile

I cant wait for all the abuse thats gonna flood in...........

It wasn't me!

Thankee Aoibheann. Aonghus, damn you!


*Make it 61*