Burn in hell america

arcadegame2004

This election result is about God, Guns and Gays. While I respect the decision (having always preached acceptance of democratic and fair election results), I despise the Rocco Buttiglione "values" that Bush and the religious Right in the US stand for. I supported his war in Afghanistan, given that the government there admitted protecting Osama Bin Laden. My initial support for the war in Iraq was mistaken, and founded on the lies we were all told about WMD and Saddam links to Al Qaeda. It is now clear that the war in Iraq was fought to serve greedy pigs in the US oil industry, and politicians with links to those companies. A certain company starting with the letter H springs to mind, and a politician whose initials are D.C.

However, I also feel that this result emphasises that Ireland is closer to Berlin than Boston when it comes to the questions of the separation of Church and State, gay rights, the death-penalty, and gun control. A wide gulf on these very issues between Europe and the US has now become exponentially wider, with clear consequences for the result of the EU Constitution referendum. I find myself certain to vote "Yes" in that referendum now. I think this issue of Iraq and this election shows the urgent need for a counterbalance to the US in world affairs. I think the Irish people need to realise sooner rather than later that no amount of condemnation of US policy from us and from Europe in general will be given any attention by the US until the EU has a proper common foreign policy, with force to back it up where necessary. Naturally I am not so insane as to advocate war with the US :rolleyes: but if we had a strong Rapid Reaction Force, then the US would show us greater respect in terms of at least listening to our views.

Keyzer

For Billy the Squid -

There you go misquoting me, I said oil not petrol. And the increase in the price of oil influences the cost of home heating, electicity, airline flights, and the transportation of the food you eat, If it costs more to ship your food to your supermarket due to the high cost of oil then that kinda pushed the price of oil up on the list of the priorities. That chicken sandwich you had for lunch today didnt grow in the shop you bought it in.

Ok, I misquoted you, but listen, retailers in all industries in this country don't need the consequences of Mr.Bushs actions to help them put there prices up, don't kid yourself, they can do that all by themselves. Yes the price of oil will have an effect on Ireland, but its not the supreme factor as to our prices rising in this country.

How is posting ones objections to Mr. Bush being affected going to ruin your day, you seem to be unessarily angry about it.

I didn't say there was a problem with posting objections to Bush, it was the nature of the comments "I'm devastated", "I'm traumatised", "I'm suicidal" etc. because Bush won, why are people being so dramatic? I don't see the same passion when it comes to things a little closer to home i.e our own joke of a country. I think the glasshouse analagy fits nicely for Irish people roaring abuse at Americans who voted for Bush.

I remember vaguely asking three times for the same thing in after hours when you and three other users trashed everything that I believed in for ten pages. The thread was never locked though.

Listen, I thought this one was over. My final comment on this is that, yes my first thread was not a nice one and I apologised to you personally for that, but my responses to the the second thread, the Dunsink Lane one, were justified and from an experienced viewpoint. I'm sorry if it hit a little close to home for you, my comments and views were not intended as a personal attack, however, I agree 100% in what I posted on that thread.
If you can't let it die, if you can't let me post my views and comments on other subjects like this one without dragging up references to other posts, then let me know and I'll leave boards.

People in this thread were calling people morons and thick shlts because I and other people differed with their opinions and stating that americans should burn in hell for this, a little over the top if you ask me. I seem to remember Irish people were regarded as thick paddies the world over not too long ago, a stereotype we didn't like now did we? So what gives us the right to call people morons for executing their constitutional right to vote for whomever they choose.

Thats why I suggested it to be closed.

GreeBo

cdebru wrote:

so it is a worry when a born again nutcase is put in charge of these weapons

as much of a worry as an Iraqi nutcase having them surely...
As far as he(W) was told by his intelligence agencies, Saddam had these weapons and I think we all know his(Saddams) attitudes to the rest of the world.
Maybe I'm just distrusting, but if someone wont let Weapons Inspectors in when they call and then lets them in a while later (to find nothing) I'd get concerned that maybe they were hiding something from me.

Id rather he invade and find nothing than not invade and discover them as they fly overhead...
:eek:

A Dub in Glasgo

GreeBo wrote:

Id rather he invade and find nothing than not invade and discover them as they fly overhead...
:eek:

You mean - I would rather we kill tens of thousands of innccent men, woman and children and find nothing than not kill thousands of innocent men, women and children and discover them as they fly overhead :eek:

Sleipnir

GreeBo wrote:

as much of a worry as an Iraqi nutcase having them surely...
As far as he(W) was told by his intelligence agencies, Saddam had these weapons and I think we all know his(Saddams) attitudes to the rest of the world.
Maybe I'm just distrusting, but if someone wont let Weapons Inspectors in when they call and then lets them in a while later (to find nothing) I'd get concerned that maybe they were hiding something from me.

Id rather he invade and find nothing than not invade and discover them as they fly overhead...
:eek:

The weapons inspectors said that they were dismantled after the 1st Gulf War. It's just that that wasn't the answer Bush was looking for.

We knew his attitude, just like we know many other dictator's attitudes but we do nothing about them.
Mugabe anyone?

GreeBo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

You mean - I would rather we kill tens of thousands of innccent men, woman and children and find nothing than not kill thousands of innocent men, women and children and discover them as they fly overhead :eek:

Its a war, innocent people die.
Mind you, the US were not beheading the people they killed and shot in self defence or at military targets (if the Iraqis want to turn their schools and religious buildings onto military buildings thats their business)

The US & UK didnt go to Iraq to kill people, they went there to remove the WMD's because the Weapons Inspectors were prohibited from doing their jobs properly.

billy the squid

Keyzer

My problem here is that in the other thread you along with a couple of other users spent ten pages of a thread degrading mocking and insulting another user blub2k4.

Now that the **** is going in the other direction you turn into a crybaby looking for threads to be locked.

Tell me did you or ANY of those other users offer blub2k4 any kind of an apology for your and their behaviour.

you should be able to take as good as you give.

I am not going to go down the road of argueing with you (a) because it would be off topic and (b) i would probably end up breaching this forum's charter

oh and the user who insulted another users girlfriend in this thread, you should be ashamed of your self as well.

Redleslie2

Sleipnir wrote:

We knew his attitude, just like we know many other dictator's attitudes but we do nothing about them.
Mugabe anyone?

Burma and Uzbekistan tbh.

therecklessone

Redlancer wrote:

If someone drove a plane into your house would you not want justice? Would you not try increase you security? Would you not try get to the root of the problem just like Bush?

Iraq is not the root of the problem. You do know Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11, don't you?

Redlancer wrote:

Thank you George Bush for ignoring the UN because if you did not we would be looking at another srebrenica on our hands.

Where exactly?

Carpo

GreeBo wrote:

Its a war, innocent people die.

This attitude really gets my goat. Just because its a war does not mean that its ok if innocent people die! That kind of write off just doesnt cut the mustard.

GreeBo wrote:

Mind you, the US were not beheading the people they killed and shot in self defence or at military targets

And yet they have managed to kill an estimated 100,000 people. But I'm sure they are all grateful that they didnt get beheaded as the bombs fell.

GreeBo wrote:

The US & UK didnt go to Iraq to kill people,

But they went to wage war and in war people (including innocents) die right?

GreeBo wrote:

they went there to remove the WMD's because the Weapons Inspectors were prohibited from doing their jobs properly.

err....if they didnt do thier job properly then why exactly are there no wmd's there??

arcadegame2004

GreeBo wrote:

Its a war, innocent people die.
Mind you, the US were not beheading the people they killed and shot in self defence or at military targets (if the Iraqis want to turn their schools and religious buildings onto military buildings thats their business)

The US & UK didnt go to Iraq to kill people, they went there to remove the WMD's because the Weapons Inspectors were prohibited from doing their jobs properly.

Well in the case of the UK, I almost feel like saying that if Bush asked him to jump off a cliff, he'd do so (metaphorically-speaking of course!). No matter what US President is in office, Blair would always be the Yankee poodle. His is the most slavishly Americanophile UK government for decades.

In the case of the US, I now believe we were lied to about WMD and AQ links. Bush's war was intended to fulfill 3 main aims:

A: Finishing off "what his father started"
B: Appeasing the fanatical, crazy religious Right in the US, whose fanatical bias towards Israel causes them to demand US intervention to depose all anti-Israeli-imperialist governments.
C: Letting the oil-companies make blood-money from Iraqi oil.

Only the naieve believe otherwise in my opinion, especially with regard to C. Who will believe the US the next time Colin Powell or his successor waltzes to the UN Security Council to warn of "weapons of mass-destruction"? Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me! :eek:

Keyzer

billy the squid wrote:

Keyzer

My problem here is that in the other thread you along with a couple of other users spent ten pages of a thread degrading mocking and insulting another user blub2k4.

Now that the **** is going in the other direction you turn into a crybaby looking for threads to be locked.

Tell me did you or ANY of those other users offer blub2k4 any kind of an apology for your and their behaviour.

you should be able to take as good as you give.

I am not going to go down the road of argueing with you (a) because it would be off topic and (b) i would probably end up breaching this forum's charter

I thought you were better that that Billy...
Did BLUB2K4 apologise for calling me a nazi?
Did he take on board any of our arguments?
Did he make a coherent argument?

The answer to all of the above is no, so before you start pointing fingers at me, take a look at the other posts. BLUB2K4 opened a thread on a subject which is always going to be a heated subject, and wasn't willing to even listen to what I or other people were posting, thats why I called him an ignoramus.

My apology to you obviously wasn't accepted, like you said it was.

I don't give a shlt what people say to me or about me, but people calling other peoples girlfriends morons is ridiculous, and that person was rightly banned for a week - If you had seen where I was coming from then you would have realised this - There was one person who was slagging me off, fair play to him, he can say what he wants, and he got banned for it.

You have an air of a superiority complex about you from your condascending posts.
I agree with not getting into an argument here, but I think you need to drop you vendetta of sorts with me, your previous post included mostly my comments, why didn't you pick up on anyone elses comments???

Get over it mate, I hit close to home on different subject, I'm sorry if I offeneded you, if you can't let it go then don't respond to my posts.
Or just have me ignored, your a moderator, I'm sure you can do that.

A Dub in Glasgo

GreeBo wrote:

Its a war, innocent people die.

Yeah, that one cheesy cop out line makes everything right and proper. War crimes spring to mind but we all know that will not happen.

Frank Grimes

Redlancer wrote:

I think it is great to see some person willing to stand up for us when all the Arab countries hate.Dont be fooled they have hated us from early human existance and at the end of the day it was Bin Laden who started the fire.

What do you mean by "they hated us from early human existance"? The Arabs have been around for a very long time. They were a civilisation that equalled or bettered the Romans etc. long before white people stepped foot in America.

Would you not try get to the root of the problem just like Bush?

How exactly is he getting to the root of the problem?
All I can see that he's done is turn Iraq into a complete free for all, killed 1000s of people and is acting as a walking recruitment advertisement for every militant group in the Arab and Muslim world.
He's doing nothing to address the problems which cause so much resentment in the Muslim towards the West e.g. Isreal/Palestine. All he's doing is antagonising the situation further.

...unlike spain who just except been bullied and walked on the USA will fight for choice

Spain did no such thing. The government lied to the population about the bombs, they tried to pin it on ETA initially when people realised that even they wouldn't do something like that. The new government kept a campaign promise and pulled the troops out. That is not being bullied, that's a nation exercising democracy.

Maybe you all want to read the Koran every night but I am happy with my religion I do not want to change and Bush will make sure I have a choice.

So whatever he does, no matter who he attacks and no matter how many people (innocent people) die it's ok as long as this "threat" is kept at bay?

Thank you George Bush for ignoring the UN because if you did not we would be looking at another srebrenica on our hands.Never again I say and until all youdo gooders live through what happened in my country please do not give your opinions so lightly

They're commiting Srebrenica's in Iraq everyday - they just call it "liberation" this time.

por

Redlancer wrote:

I would just like to congratulate George Bush on his super victoey in America by winning the popular vote which proved it was only right he got in ahead of Gore the last time.He must have pleased alot of people as he did not have the popular vote the last time.
I think it is great to see some person willing to stand up for us when all the Arab countries hate.Dont be fooled they have hated us from early human existance and at the end of the day it was Bin Laden who started the fire.All you people who hate Bush,just go to Iraq get captured by one of these radical groups then tell me Bush is not doing the right thing.If someone drove a plane into your house would you not want justice? Would you not try increase you security? Would you not try get to the root of the problem just like Bush?
The problem is people see this issue with blinkers,it is not it is a world problem taking the examples of spain and russia.It has to be shown that terror cannot win and unlike spain who just except been bullied and walked on the USA will fight for choice.Maybe you all want to read the Koran every night but I am happy with my religion I do not want to change and Bush will make sure I have a choice.
Thank you George Bush for ignoring the UN because if you did not we would be looking at another srebrenica on our hands.Never again I say and until all youdo gooders live through what happened in my country please do not give your opinions so lightly

Well said Redlancer, the problem with people here in Ireland is that they seem to love to bash America without looking at the full picture. Remember people there are Muslims out there ready to cut the heads off two Irish\British women, and Muslims who are ready to blow up buildings, trains, planes etc. here is the western world without a second thought all in the name of God. So wich do you want, a democrartc western society or a Muslin society run by Tallaban like authorities.

Well done America and well done Bush.

Well done GWB for being a strong leader and good luck for the next 4 yaers.

Frank Grimes

por wrote:

Well said Redlancer, the problem with people here in Ireland is that they seem to love to bash America without looking at the full picture. Remember people there are Muslims out there ready to cut the heads off two Irish\British women, and Muslims who are ready to blow up buildings, trains, planes etc. here is the western world without a second thought all in the name of God. So wich do you want, a democrartc western society or a Muslin society run by Tallaban like authorities.

Well done America and well done Bush.

Well done GWB for being a strong leader and good luck for the next 4 yaers.

Certain Muslims are doing that, just as certain white western people are massacring civilians in Iraq.
You do realise that not all of the 1 billion plus Muslims think like an extreme minority of fanatics? Or is that just wishful thinking on my part.

A Dub in Glasgo

por wrote:

Well said Redlancer, the problem with people here in Ireland is that they seem to love to bash America without looking at the full picture. Remember people there are Muslims out there ready to cut the heads off two Irish\British women, and Muslims who are ready to blow up buildings, trains, planes etc. here is the western world without a second thought all in the name of God. So wich do you want, a democrartc western society or a Muslin society run by Tallaban like authorities.

Well done America and well done Bush.

Well done GWB for being a strong leader and good luck for the next 4 yaers.

You are so right. There are also Christians who are shooting and blowing up women and children and I suppose it would be fair to paint all Christians with that same 500 mile wide brush

por

Frank Grimes wrote:

Certain Muslims are doing that, just as certain white western people are massacring civilians in Iraq.
You do realise that not all of the 1 billion plus Muslims think like an extreme minority of fanatics? Or is that just wishful thinking on my part.

So what if there are civilians being killed in Iraq, that is the price of freedom, millions of European civilians died in WWII and I don't see anyone complaining about the outcome of that war.

Of course I realise that not all 1 billion Muslims are fanatical but I also realise that there are a number hell bent on trying to destroy the western world and that these have to be rooted out and liquidated.

A Dub in Glasgo

por wrote:

So what if there are civilians being killed in Iraq

You and GWB fit perfectly together

Hobbes

por wrote:

Well said Redlancer, the problem with people here in Ireland is that they seem to love to bash America without looking at the full picture.

I would say its the reverse. We have seen the full picture (or like the titanic only the top part of the iceberg). It is nothing to do with bashing America and more about wondering wtf would someone pick Bush for knowing all that we know.

Remember people there are Muslims out there ready to cut the heads off two Irish\British women, and Muslims who are ready to blow up buildings, trains, planes etc.

Which means what? There Christians/catholics/prodestants who plan to do the same. Does that mean they are all the same?

Its your comparing all muslims to the actions of a minority is like saying that all Republicans are evil because Bush is.

Zombienosh

bush = cheaper imports from america?

Frank Grimes

por wrote:

So what if there are civilians being killed in Iraq, that is the price of freedom, millions of European civilians died in WWII and I don't see anyone complaining about the outcome of that war.

You cannot equate what is going on now to WW2, it's a different ball game altogether.
How will carpet bombing towns in Iraq protect your freedom and defeat "terrorists"?
And I care that civilians are being killed. Why should "our freedom" be worth more than their lives?
Why don't you put all your cards on the table and give an honest answer without spouting talk of freedom and democracy.

mr_angry

I have to admire the complete hypocracy of GreeBo's post. "Its war. Innocent civilians die". If I remember correctly, Osama Bin Laden considers himself and his followers at war with the US. Does that mean it was alright that the people in the Twin Towers died?

Same logic, different perspective.

por

Frank Grimes wrote:

You cannot equate what is going on now to WW2, it's a different ball game altogether.

How is it a different ball game, in wars civilians die, that is just a cold hard fact.

Frank Grimes wrote:

How will carpet bombing towns in Iraq protect your freedom and defeat "terrorists"?.

Sorry if I was not clear in my previous post, I am not talking about my freedom. The US is trying to create a freer (sp), open Iraq, and if carpet bombing helps achieve that so be it. Again I go back to WII, the blanket bombing of Dresden and the atomic bombs on Japan helped end the war, and we are much the better for it.

Frank Grimes wrote:

And I care that civilians are being killed. Why should "our freedom" be worth more than their lives?

As above I am not talking about "our freedom". However I am concerned about "our security" and I believe a more democratic Iraq would help "our security"

Frank Grimes wrote:

Why don't you put all your cards on the table and give an honest answer without spouting talk of freedom and democracy.

I would like to see the places like Iraq run by elected govts. that are friendly to the west. Once the process has started in Iraq and Afghanistan money should be pumped into these countries from the west to re-build them, poverty is a breeding ground for extremists, so the better off these people are the less chance of extremism.

You may accuse me of being idealistic but that that is what think.

Now why don't you put your cards on the table and tell us what you think should happen in Iraq.

Frank Grimes

por wrote:

Now why don't you put your cards on the table and tell us what you think should happen in Iraq.

Stop killing civilians for one. Things like that kind of encourage support for militant organisations.

As above I am not talking about "our freedom". However I am concerned about "our security" and I believe a more democratic Iraq would help "our security"

Explain how a democratic Iraq will improve your security.

The US is trying to create a freer (sp), open Iraq, and if carpet bombing helps achieve that so be it.

Forced into accepting democracy. Interesting concept.

I would like to see the places like Iraq run by elected govts. that are friendly to the west.

US meddling in other countries across the world, installing of "friendly" governments etc. have caused a lot of the problems the world is faced with at the moment.
What if the population of the country isn't interested in being governed by what the US deems as an acceptable and friendly government? What next? Keep killing them until they accept it?

Sleipnir

por wrote:

How is it a different ball game, in wars civilians die, that is just a cold hard fact.

Sorry if I was not clear in my previous post, I am not talking about my freedom. The US is trying to create a freer (sp), open Iraq, and if carpet bombing helps achieve that so be it. Again I go back to WII, the blanket bombing of Dresden and the atomic bombs on Japan helped end the war, and we are much the better for it.

As above I am not talking about "our freedom". However I am concerned about "our security" and I believe a more democratic Iraq would help "our security"


I would like to see the places like Iraq run by elected govts. that are friendly to the west. Once the process has started in Iraq and Afghanistan money should be pumped into these countries from the west to re-build them, poverty is a breeding ground for extremists, so the better off these people are the less chance of extremism.

You may accuse me of being idealistic but that that is what think.

Now why don't you put your cards on the table and tell us what you think should happen in Iraq.

I'm sure you'd agree it's a "cold hard fact" if it was your family who were killed as they sat down to dinner.

The war was already over before America dropped the atom bomb.
The blanket bombing of Dresden did nothing to end the war. It
just destroyed a city and killed thousands of people, that's all.

Money pumped into Iraq? That's just plain laughable.
Money is being pumped out if Iraq and that won't change
until there is no money left.

How was your security affected by Iraq before the war?

por

Frank Grimes wrote:

Stop killing civilians for one

Very easy to say, but what exactly would you do to solve the issues in Iraq.

Frank Grimes wrote:

Explain how a democratic Iraq will improve your security.

Democratic, safe, rich = less chance of becoming an extremist breeding ground.

Frank Grimes wrote:

Forced into accepting democracy. Interesting concept.
US meddling in other countries across the world, installing of "friendly" governments etc. have caused a lot of the problems the world is faced with at the moment.
What if the population of the country isn't interested in being governed by what the US deems as an acceptable and friendly government? What next? Keep killing them until they accept it?

Money is the key, pump enough money into the place and the population will be quiet happy with their lot.

Keyzer

You'll all be delighted to know that me and Billy the Squid and pals again....

billy the squid

ya my fault misreading a post zorry keyzer

por

Sleipnir wrote:

I'm sure you'd agree it's a "cold hard fact" if it was your family who were killed as they sat down to dinner.

I have never been in a war situation so I cannot answer that question.

Sleipnir wrote:

The war was already over before America dropped the atom bomb.
The blanket bombing of Dresden did nothing to end the war. It
just destroyed a city and killed thousands of people, that's all.

Millions of innocents died in WWII, and both Europe and Japan are better places as a result, I dare to think where we would be in 2004 if Hitler and Japan were successful.

Sleipnir wrote:

Money pumped into Iraq? That's just plain laughable.
Money is being pumped out if Iraq and that won't change
until there is no money left.

It's an oil rich country, build up the oil infrastructure and I reckon the locals will be quite happy with the returns.

Sleipnir wrote:

How was your security affected by Iraq before the war?

Rouge state, world is better off without Sadamm.