* SPLIT* (A Very Pertinent Question)

Ripwave

SkepticOne wrote:

I'm not sure what you are responding to here (maybe someone elses post?).

If I wanted to have a private conversation with you, I'd use the PM system.

SkepticOne

Ripwave, and your suggestions to the problem of poor availability of broadband are...? What should the government do?

Ripwave

SkepticOne wrote:

Ripwave, and your suggestions to the problem of poor availability of broadband are...? What should the government do?

Why don't you read what I posted, Skeptic? You can start with the very first response in the whole thread!

eircomtribunal

Ripwave wrote:

Where did you get this number from? Every major US dialup ISP costs over $20/month. The migration to DSL was helped by the fact that the incremental cost of switching to broadband was relatively low.

Your argumentation about the reasons for migration to dsl in the US is interesting...


In the Msn link here

http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=features/compare&HL=Compare_Plans&ST=1&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-us

where do I go wrong to assume that I don't get real narrowband flat rate for 9.95 Dollars a month (+ three month free with sign-up)?

Or in the offers in this link? http://www.thelist.com/misc/usa/

P.

Eurorunner

Ripwave wrote:

AOL has tens of millions of customers paying over $20/month. How many customers are availaing of your friends zero cost ISP?

"Im sure it varies" remember?
Just illustrating that there are free dialup deals over there too.

Ripwave

eircomtribunal wrote:

Your argumentation about the reasons for migration to dsl in the US is interesting...

In the Msn link here

http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=features/compare&HL=Compare_Plans&ST=1&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-us

where do I go wrong to assume that I don't get real narrowband flat rate for 9.95 Dollars a month (+ three month free with sign-up)?

The title right there at the top of the first column would be the first place - MSN® Premium Internet Software does NOT include Internet access.. The second hint would be the line that says Unlimited Internet Access
(7000+ Local Access Numbers) Not Included

The $9.95 package gives you access to MSN.com premium content over your existing internet connection, it doesn't give you a dialup account.

Or in the offers in this link? http://www.thelist.com/misc/usa/

I didn't say that you couldn't get dialup access for less than $20 - I said that every major US ISP charges over $20 for unlimited dialup - and that means that the vast majority of US dialup users are paying far more than your $10/month. So your whole arguement that this $10 rate is vital to takeup is baseless, because $10/month is far from typcial of US dalup users.

eircomtribunal

Ripwave wrote:

AOL has tens of millions of customers paying over $20/month. How many customers are availaing of your friends zero cost ISP?

AOL is not a normal dial-up service as you know! It is disingenuous to use the AOL pricing in this discussion, to say the least.
P.

Ripwave

eircomtribunal wrote:

AOL is not a normal dial-up service as you know! It is disingenuous to use the AOL pricing in this discussion, to say the least.
P.

You're the one being disengenuous, Peter - you know very well that AOL is the only way that 10's of millions of US users experience the internet.

Very few of the 10's of millions of US housholds that are paying $23.90 to AOL to get access to the Internet bother paying someone else another $10/month to dial into the "plain" internet.

The US market is very, very different from the Irish internet market. "Content Services" like AOL and MSN go some way to explain the higher internet penetration in those markets. If you want to draw parallels with the US market, you can't just pick and choose the bits that happen to suit your argument, and ignore the bits that don't.

eircomtribunal

Ripwave wrote:

The title right there at the top of the first column would be the first place - MSN® Premium Internet Software does NOT include Internet access.. The second hint would be the line that says Unlimited Internet Access
(7000+ Local Access Numbers) Not Included

The $9.95 package gives you access to MSN.com premium content over your existing internet connection, it doesn't give you a dialup account.

Ok, I overlooked this one.
But both AOL and MSN are Premium ISP's and offer a lot more than flat-rate for 20 dollars. Their service is not comparable to our 150 hours prepaid for 29.95 Euros (=37 dollars).
The normal flat-rate Internet access in the US is 10 dollars and less. That was the recipe for rapid Internet take-up in the US.
P.

Slutmonkey57b

Interesting question. The problem is not lack of thoughts on what the solution is, but there are so many problems, which one do you tackle first? Soo.. I'd plump for a number of answers:

1: Remove the current pricing regime for LLU and replace it with one in which NOT ONLY the "obvious" €14 charge is reduced, but in which the majority of the superfluous "survey" charges eircom hands out to competitors is reduced or removed. We hear a lot about the €14 but not a lot about the thousands it costs for a company to even find out if they CAN supply a customer. Personally I'd be prepared to spend as much on line rental as I currently do if it was going to a different company - that's how much I hate the incumbant.

2: Fuctional Internet defined at 64k+ on ALL lines, with last mile provision of service to be flexible. Ergo no, the incumbant doesn't have to rip up the roads if it doesn't want to and can deploy wireless instead. BT's move to IP-based systems indicates that a forward thinking company sees capex as not a burden but a competitive advantage.

3: Muck for the vacant Commissioner's post in Comreg. Free kick up the arse for all the lackeys and PR recyclers in there. Not to mention a big scare for eircom.

I was going to suggest a general review of eircom's pricing "basket" but the stick-v-carrott approach here is if the financial and political press really start to take on board the implications of what O'Reilly and co have scammed out of the country, and the taxpayer, with their acquisition of eircom and the rape of its balance sheet. Assuming they ever get wind of it, it will provide more than ample pressure for the establishemnt to put the boot in, if only to save its political neck.

The debate of flatrate dialup's effect on broadband penetration is an interesting one, but as an obvious piece of anecdotal evidence, don't you find it's true that once introduced to the internet, a new user always finds more use for it than they first thought? My experience is that even the most technophobe of people when they get a handle on things like a mobile phone or a computer, embrace far more of what they can do with it than you might expect. Dialup is still usually the first step and if this is cheap enough, let's face it it only takes a couple of months of frustrating modem use, followed by a 5-minute display of broadband, for most people to take the plunge to the newer technology because they'll see what they get for their extra €€.

Ripwave

eircomtribunal wrote:

Ok, I overlooked this one.
But both AOL and MSN are Premium ISP's and offer a lot more than flat-rate for 20 dollars. Their service is not comparable to our 150 hours prepaid for 29.95 Euros (=37 dollars).

Peter, you keep going on about internet penetration rates. The simple fact of the matter is that the US's high internet penetration rate was achieved because of these Premium ISPs - if you want to discount them, then fine, but you'd need to cut the US's internet penetration rate in half.

eircomtribunal wrote:

The normal flat-rate Internet access in the US is 10 dollars and less. That was the recipe for rapid Internet take-up in the US.
P.

That's just utter nonsense. There isn't a single "low price" ISP in the US that's even a household name - I doubt that more than 10% of US dialup users are using <$10 dialup ISP, and they're far less likely to "upgrade" to $35/month for broadband than someone who's used to paying $25/month for dialup.

Eurorunner

Was chatting with my m8 in Nevada and ran it past him:
Hes actually using a relatives yahoo dialup account - yahoo give their broadband customers a free dialup account as backup - which is a novel idea. Otherwise, he says he would be paying $15/month for dialup.

Other than that, hes paying €23/month line rental with free local calls.

spongebob

Ripwave wrote:

The simple fact of the matter is that the US's high internet penetration rate was achieved because of these Premium ISPs - if you want to discount them, then fine, but you'd need to cut the US's internet penetration rate in half.

Normally I would avoid pedantry but MSN / AOL / Compuserve are not and never were ISP's . They are Online Services .

You would be correct were you to say that the US (and UK and Germany) have a high Online Service penetration as well as High Internet penetration. In Ireland they are invisible outside of Dublin.

There isn't a single "low price" ISP in the US that's even a household name - I doubt that more than 10% of US dialup users are using <$10 dialup ISP, and they're far less likely to "upgrade" to $35/month for broadband than someone who's used to paying $25/month for dialup.

Nationally no, you are right about the branding . but locally yes . Earthlink is quite large and is a 'pure' ISP but there are others .

Ultimately the US model is that you pay your telco a sort of FRIACO and and then pay your service provider for access to an Internet port . This dual contract mechanism applies to BB too.

M

damien

This has turned into a debate on whether flat rate dialup will promote broadband use. This needs its own thread. Can someone split this and can we get back to the Martin's question ?

Ripwave

Muck wrote:

Normally I would avoid pedantry but MSN / AOL / Compuserve are not and never were ISP's . They are Online Services

Muck, they're how the vast majority of US dial-ip users access the Internet - they are Internet Service Providers in any sane, rational sense.

Nationally no, you are right about the branding . but locally yes . Earthlink is quite large and is a 'pure' ISP but there are others .

Muck, you have about as much experience of the US dialup market as Peter does. Earthlink is a national ISP, and the only reason I didn't list their $21.95/month standard price in the list I posted yesterday is because their site was too slow to load.

The bottom line, though, is that US dialup users are more likely to be paying $20/month than $10/month for their "internet access". So the argument that we "need" €10/month all you can eat dialup access to encourage internet penetration is simply not grounded in reality.

Urban Weigl

Ripwave wrote:

So the argument that we "need" €10/month all you can eat dialup access to encourage internet penetration is simply not grounded in reality.

I can speak for the people that I have talked to in my area when I say that many just do not bother with the internet, because dialup is too uncertain in terms of cost, but €30 is too expensive for what it is.

Beyond that, there are plenty of ISP's in the US that come in around that price point. I think someone mentioned Yahoo! not being far off, and in Texas, Everyones Internet is a big brand (ev1.net). They have always offered "just 10 bucks" all you can eat dialup. I asked a mate of mine who is still on dialup, and he says he pays $12 a month to his local ISP, plus $18 line rental, which includes free local calls.

I also remember AOL losing market share fast at one stage, because they were being squeezed by the "$10 vanilla ISP" on one side, and broadband on the other.

I'm not saying that $10 "all you can eat" access is the holy grail, but here are two facts: it will help, and it will motivate to roll out broadband, because right now Eircom still sees dialup as a cash cow. And quite frankly, with the state of internet penetration and broadband availability in Ireland, we need all the help we can get!

Ripwave

Urban Weigl wrote:

I can speak for the people that I have talked to in my area when I say that many just do not bother with the internet, because dialup is too uncertain in terms of cost, but €30 is too expensive for what it is.

eircom offers a €10/month, and €20/month and a €30/month plan. IOL/Esat offers €10, €15, €20 and €27 packages. UTV has a €10 package, and a €25 package.

The people who "do not bother with the internet" don't need, or want, to pay for 6 hours a day services. If they don't want to go online, they don't want to go online - big stinking deal! If they think €10/month is too expensive, it's because they don't think they'll spend an hour a day online, not because 35c/hour is too expensive. Cheaper broadband won't convince them that they need to spend more than an hour a day online. (And this is where the constant comparisons to the US really run themselves into the ground - content really did play a big part in the growth of internet penetration in the US. That particular enticement is missing for many potential Irish users - online shopping isn't all that enticing, increasingly cheap international and national calls makes e-mail less attractive, relatively pain-free access to local news, sport and entertainment through traditional media.

Beyond that, there are plenty of ISP's in the US that come in around that price point.

How often do I have to repeat myself on this - the issue isn't whether there are cheap dialup services available in the US - the issue is whether "under $10/month" is "normal" for US dial-up users. It isn't, plain and simple.

I'm not saying that $10 "all you can eat" access is the holy grail, but here are two facts: it will help, and it will motivate to roll out broadband, because right now Eircom still sees dialup as a cash cow.

You know, I'm becoming convinced that some of you think that the phrase "critical thinking" desribes the process of thiking up new ways to criticise eircom, or the government, or whoever else is supposed to be responsible for your woes.

Cheap dialup access will discourage people from upgrading to broadband. And dialup is not a "cash cow" for eircom anymore. (At least, it isn't any more of a cash cow than DSL is). If you just want to wave your magic want and decree that eircom should provide unlimited dialup access for €10/month, whether it's economically feasible or not, why don't you just go the whole hog and use your magic wand to deliver DSL for €10 instead?

eircomtribunal

Ripwave wrote:

Cheap dialup access will discourage people from upgrading to broadband. And dialup is not a "cash cow" for eircom anymore. (At least, it isn't any more of a cash cow than DSL is). If you just want to wave your magic want and decree that eircom should provide unlimited dialup access for €10/month, whether it's economically feasible or not, why don't you just go the whole hog and use your magic wand to deliver DSL for €10 instead?

I think we've fecked up Martin's thread bad enough by now - sorry for that.

Let's agree to disagree and just let it stand at those opposing statements?

Your statement above and mine here:

Cheap real flate-rate dial-up is necessary to encourage more Irish people to discover the Internet. This will result in a wider base for people to migrate to broadband.
Dial-up is still the cash cow for Eircom (more dial-up minutes than call minutes, according to Comreg), with Broadband they cannibalise their profits from leased lines and dial-up ("free", subscription and prepaid hours)
Our current "30 euros for 150 prepaid hours FRIACO" is lunacy.

P

Ripwave

eircomtribunal wrote:

Let's agree to disagree and just let it stand at those opposing statements?

Okay, you can pull random numbers out of thin air and convince yourself that they mean something, and I'll stick with rational assumptions, based on the real world.

Cheap real flate-rate dial-up is necessary to encourage more Irish people to discover the Internet.

NEWSFLASH! We have cheap dialup access for people who want to "discover the Internet". Pay as you go is far cheaper for people who want to "try out" the internet than prepaid, lump sum, minimum contact packages (you know, like the ones they have in America?). You can "try out" the internet for a euro an hour, without any commitment, and no worry about "wasting" the lump sum.

The only argument that you've provided to support your argument has already been demonstrated to be nonsense, as you obviously don't have any useful knowledge of the US dialup market.

This will result in a wider base for people to migrate to broadband.

Here we go again. Why would an ordinary web user step up from €10/month flat rate to €35/month broadband? Sure, the P2Pers will, and the gamers might. But they're a tiny minority. The people booking an aerlingus.com flight 3 times a year? The people who send a couple of e-mails a week? I don't think so.

You've decided what you want the world to look like, and you're redefining the data to give you the answer that you want.

Dial-up is still the cash cow for Eircom (more dial-up minutes than call minutes, according to Comreg),

Hello??? Anyone there? A business that makes 120 hours of local calls in a month will be charged over €200. If they make 120 hours of calls to the internet, they'll pay €30.

Some cash cow. It WAS a cash cow, before they were forced to introduce flat-rate packages. While it's unlikely that eircom are losing money on those packages, they're still making far, far less than they used to, and online minutes have probably gone up as a result.

spongebob

Ripwave.

40% of homes use the internet to some degree. As 100,000 homes (max) have BB we can assume that the rest use the Tooth Fairy or Dial Up ....or else they sit in circles chanting ummmmmmmmmmmmmmUUUUUUMmmmmmmmmm and crank a few packets out that way. ME! , I think they use dial up . 500,000 of them out c.600,000 home internet users.

Eircom in their SEC filing indicated that some 50,000 were on FRIACO , I would bet thats wholesale FRIACO or all of the FRIACO user base .

The other 450,000 of them are on PAYG 1892 or Discounted Daytime PAYG 1891. I make that 90% of Dial Up users and over 4 times the number of BB customers in the country. who are not on any form of useful home package.

This clump of 450,000 users are the ones who should be encouraged to move to FRIACO where their usage justifies it or may justify it if they were not counting the minutes.

Yes we can forget Anty Mary and her 2 Ryanair flights a year but an education campaign is required for FRIACO as there are maybe 100,000 potential beneficiaries out there who do not need BB but who have reasonable online usage.

Why don't you set out your stall on what the issues are (as you see them) and what can be done to sort them (as you see it) instead of constantly knocking others with your relentless pointless pedantry and negativity .

M

mrblack

Muck wrote:

This is a virtous linkage Andrew. In the event that a line cannot support functional internet access the person must spend far longer online for the same 'result' . Giving them a discounted rate encourages the owner of the line to fix same and give themselves a revenue increase on the spot. It is consistent with the legal obligation on Comreg to ensure that Functional Internet Accesss (FIA) is universally available. A special €10 rate for Unlimited FRIACO for an impaired line focuses the mind . Fixing that line can produce €20 revenue a month from day one (daytime package) .

Furthermore, if the internal wiring on the premises is at fault (as it often is) the owner of the wires can simply test just outside the premises , establish that it is working in a manner consistent with FIA and serve notice on the customer that they should deal with the wiring inside themselves......and probably charge €50 for the unneccesary visit as well. Therefore it is not a regulatory 'burden' as there is a mechanism to claw back costs where the line is not at fault.

Your suggestion is equitable to all the stakeholders and is easy to administer.

M

This seems such a reasonable proposition to advance internet usuage. I wonder if the regulator has thought of it. If not it he should be advised of this possible initiative in the telecom market. I know of a few people who have to redial up many times to get their email never mind surf because its too frustrating with all the hangups. and each time they dial its minimum call charge to eircom so its in their interest to do nothing at the moment for such customers.