Programming ...

wmalgal

Hi there,

I am at a bit of a cross roads in my career and I need some advice.

I am 32 years old, Computer Science graduate who has been working with
the Lotus Domino platform for 8 years.

Recently, I have been involved in developing Java servlets and agents
and that coupled with reading Steve Mconnell's Code Complete(anyone else read this?) has rejuvenated my attitude toward coding and software development in
general.

Now I have a few questions that you may be able to help me with
(please excuse me if some of them seem silly)

1) The way it seems to me is that after a certain age you are almost
expected to move on ... into project management for example. I really
like programming and feel I have so much to learn and so much to do
(especially since I have been doing more rapid application development
and lotus scripting etc). Is there any resistance or is there anything
stopping me from being a good programmer and or programmer for the
next 5 years or so?

2) How to do I get from where I am today to where I want to be? What
are the best platforms (as far as jobs availability) .. is J2ee the
way to go etc?

I was disillusioned for a long time. I feel much better about it now..
I avoid computers when I am not at work (I want to have some balance
in my life)... Is there room in the software development world for
people like me? Do we have many 30 something programmers in the world? Am I being paranoid? :-)

Yours!
wmalgal

Evil Phil

I'm 31 and a programmer. I'm freelance (mostly contracting) working with C#. Age has nothing to do with my being a coder, I like it and it makes me money. There comes a point when you're working in a company where programming/development reaches the end of the line and the next available career move is management. Having a spouse or children often necessitates this. For me I move onto another project/contract/customer. Management for me is a pointless unless you're making the money. Don't run somebody else's company for them; plenty of others are willing to do that.

Is there anything stopping you being a programmer? No. Lockheed Martin has had positions for people with strictly no less than 15 years coding experience, 15 years!!!

I say be a coder for a long as it’s interesting and viable, then move into something new. That being said if I could make more money out of maternity wear then that’s what I’d be doing.

jessy

wmalgal wrote:

Hi there,

1) The way it seems to me is that after a certain age you are almost
expected to move on ... into project management for example. I really
like programming and feel I have so much to learn and so much to do
(especially since I have been doing more rapid application development
and lotus scripting etc).
wmalgal

your defiantly been paranoid, No company in a normal state of mind who developing safety critical system would ever let a programmer with less than 8-10 years even look at there code.

Traffic controllers
Nuclear power stations.
Life support sys
Controls on an Airplane.
Medical equipment.

Non Safety critical but extremely complex
Weather prediction
Expert systems.
Even Games
AI for chess

Remember most software developed is not for a PC.

Kernel32

I agree that there are older programmers out there, I am 29 and I have worked side by side with programmers in there late 40's and 50's. One of the problems they do have is ageism when it comes to finding a new job, it is a real problem in this industry and in many others. I am working as an independent consultant myself and I have 9 years experience. The company I have consulted with for the past year now want me to come on board as the director of software development which means I will be moving into more management. I have wrestled with it for a while and decided to do it because I feel I have hit the top of the level I am at. I hope I don't regret it.

As for Steve Mconnell, I urge every developer to read his work. I don't agree with everything he writes about but he is indeed a master. I started reading his books several years back and it also gave me a new view of software development. It wasn't until that point that I even really understood what it was to be a true professional developer.

aidan_walsh

wmalgal wrote:

Steve Mconnell's Code Complete(anyone else read this?)

Nothing constructive (sorry), but just wanted to say that I've added the book to my reading list based on the recommendations here. Thank you.

dent

Programmers where I work range in age from 23 - 50.

bonkey

wmalgal wrote:

1) The way it seems to me is that after a certain age you are almost
expected to move on ... into project management for example.

This may be the way its seen in your company, but its not industry-wide.

In the early 90s there was literally a revolution in the IT industry, led from the US, as managers discovered that they needed to find ways to allow their best programmers etc. to remain programmers etc. if they wanted to and still have some form of career progression....because if they didn't, the programmers just left for elsewhere.

Is there any resistance or is there anything stopping me from being a good programmer and or programmer for the next 5 years or so?

Not really, but you may have to accept the unpleasant reality that your programming experience to date may not command the same salary as your Domino expertise does.

2) How to do I get from where I am today to where I want to be?

Same way everyone else does, unless you're lucky to find a "bridging" project where you can use your Domino skills as a "helper" whilst improving your programming skills.

F'r example...I worked on a project recently coding a Java app to run as an interface between a Peoplesoft database and another system. As a result, I know some Peoplesoft. Not enough to become a PS-consultant, but if thats where I wanted to be, I could have learned a lot of Peoplesoft and come out of there sellable as a PS-Consultant, despite having gone in as a Java consultant.

What are the best platforms (as far as jobs availability) .. is J2ee the
way to go etc?

Oof. Java or .Net would be my initial reaction, but then again, thats what everyone does

Is there room in the software development world for people like me?

There's room in SD for anyone who can actually develop well, as opposed to be paid well to develop badly. If you fit into the former group, you'll find there's no shortage of room. If we have another boom like the .com, then you'll find no shortage of toom regardless of which group you fit into

jc

Stugots

I've been in software for 15 years. I've dabbled with the dark side (management) for a few years, but programming is much more satisfying work to me. With management, its a lot more difficult to measure what you actually accomplished in any given day. I missed the rush of the first run, the resolved bug, releasing a product etc. I reverted to programming full time six years ago and haven't regretted it.

I work for a major multi-national and as with most modern engineering organizations, they provide for and encourage a dual career path option - management or "individual contributor". There are equivalent positions on both paths right up and including vice president level.

The best perk of working in software is that I have worked full time from home for the last several years - its hard to do that as a manager!

stevenmu

You could also consider working for a smaller company where you may end up managing a team of developers but still do a lot of development yourself.
J2EE and .Net seem to be the way for the future but one big advantage of being an older developer though is being familiar with legacy systems. If you take a look at any of the job websites there's usually a few jobs up for things like AS/400 and there's plenty of money on offer too.

yop

"Steve Mconnell's Code Complete"

Great book.

Don't worry about the age thing. Work with 4 programmers. 3 are over 30.
I am not far off the mark and have no intention.

As for .NET or JAVA - seems to be much of muchness as regards jobs out there. Which ever you feel most comfortable with.

dazberry

wmalgal wrote:

1) The way it seems to me is that after a certain age you are almost
expected to move on ... into project management for example.

Funny enough this was a conversation that a friend of mine and myself had recently, and we would have echoed a similar sentiment. Discussing it with other people and the sentiment has again been echoed.

I've worked in development for 10 years, and I often get asked why I haven't moved to for example Project Management. The thing is I guess like yourself and others here is that development is what I want to do. No one can argue with that sentiment but I do get asked quite frequently, and it is a common perception.

Now the issue with all this is that looking at the arena I work in, the most common minimum experience requirement is 4 years. So say I see this job and apply, so does say Fran who has 4 years. Say both myself and Fran are spot on for the technical requirements - all things being equal, they'd hire both of us if they could, so why would Fran get the job and not me...

The immediate perception is that I will be more expensive in salary terms. It really doesn't matter if I work out cheaper in the long run, that is the perception. If I'm not more expensive than Fran they immediately smell a rat, and of course if I'm too expensive I'll price myself out.

So they've scoped the position and are happy with what Fran can do, I can't compete on price, and any technical advantages don't add enough weight. All this prior to any interviews, how to I differentiate myself from Fran and justify the additional perceived expense?

The key I believe is being value added. Its where a programmer remains a programmer, but has to wear many different hats. So what do I want them to see on my CV? Ok, there's no getting away from the fact that I string code together in some fashion. Firstly I want them to see that I string code together with a rhyme and reason, I'm a software engineer. Then I want them to see that I've worked thru' the complete lifecycle. So firstly the business analyst hat goes on, maybe some process modeling. Then say onto project architect, development, QA, delivery - all with some project management rolled in.

Firstly this doesn't mean that I'm all those things. It just means I've done those things as part of work. Secondly of course it doesn't guarantee I get the job above our fictional friend Fran. But it serves in essence to differentiate and hopefully justify (to make a business case as it were), as to why they should hire me

The way I see it (in the arena I work in anyway) is that often the technical experience diminishes beyond a certain point, and things become extricably linked to the business - be that the business of writing software or a business that has scant regard to the software that is written for it. There are of course exceptions if you're lucky enough to find them. But them is the rules so that is the way I have to play it.

Apologies to anyone named Fran BTW ... and another book I read recently (should have read it years ago) and would recommend is Fergus O'Connell's "How to Run Successful Projects III - The Silver Bullet".

D.