my epiphany, the EU and Bush

OfflerCrocGod

chill wrote:

The EU is already an economic superpower.

It's losing that 'power' very quickly. With 9-10% growth in China and with world growth at ~4.5% Europe is lagging behind with it's crappy 2.5%< growth. We need France, Germany, Italy to reform start pumping up the population figures - even if it means using immigrants. There just isn't long term growth in Europe, we are dying. Even Ireland, young 'growing' Ireland only has a 1.6 child rate. We will - in time - disappear, something has to be done about that.

chill wrote:

All it needs to do is bite the bullet and establish a joint foreign affairs policy, modernise the enormous waste being poured into most of the country's bureocratically dominated military, and form a decent sized EU Military forces Group that can be deployed quickly and effectively in trouble spots that threaten our security and way of life.

Yes, I wish that would happen but our stupid European politicians only care about their country; they don't see Europe as a state but as an economic union. What we need is time, what we don't have.....is time I only wish for a European Army, a joint research and development structure that supports European companies. Look at American dominance in advanced weapons and technology. We can do anything and everything that the USA does and makes but we won't! We would rather fight amongst ourself or - even worse - we try and partener with the USA. With crap results.

At the same time, the greatest JSF customer expectation of all - that of equal partnerships with meaningful industrial co-operation - is still largely unfulfilled. Important partner nations such as Australia, Denmark and Norway have all now expressed very public dissatisfaction at the hand they have been dealt by the JSF Programme Office. Nowhere are these concerns more keenly felt than in the UK.

NO **** UK - great move another butt-**** by the US :mad: EQUAL, hahaha man the US must be laughing it's ass off! It gets the know-how the jobs and the profits! Forget it Europe is no super-power it's a super-could-have-been.

chill

OfflerCrocGod wrote:

It's losing that 'power' very quickly. With 9-10% growth in China and with world growth at ~4.5% Europe is lagging behind with it's crappy 2.5%< growth.

Wrong. Growth is irrelevant. And also growth is not linear. EU growth may increase dramatically in ten years time and Chinese growth may crash by then. Either way they wouldn't reach the economic influence of the EU for many decades.

We need France, Germany, Italy to reform start pumping up the population figures - even if it means using immigrants. There just isn't long term growth in Europe, we are dying. Even Ireland, young 'growing' Ireland only has a 1.6 child rate. We will - in time - disappear, something has to be done about that.

A worrying issue but not very likely. Immigration will continue, Immigrant populations are growing fast and modern industry is changing fast.

Yes, I wish that would happen but our stupid European politicians only care about their country; they don't see Europe as a state but as an economic union.

Sadly I agree this is still true.
Until Europe wakes up and sees what is happening around the world, the danger to our very way of life, the new reality of global terrorism and unreformed Islamic domination and exploitation of it's people against us, then you will remain correct.

I just hope leadership can arrive in time to save us from ourselves and our parochial small mindedness typified by Ireland's disingenuous 'neutrality'.

What we need is time, what we don't have.....is time

No. Time won't help either way, unless we LEARN. We need leadership to LEAD, despite the petty small mindedness of the people. Leaders lead and show the people they are right. They don't just act as agents of the people.

I only wish for a European Army, a joint research and development structure that supports European companies. Look at American dominance in advanced weapons and technology. We can do anything and everything that the USA does and makes but we won't! We would rather fight amongst ourself or - even worse - we try and partener with the USA.

While I do see value in what you say - I do not claim that we need to turn ourselves into another USA.
We don't need to 'become' another USA.... we just need to stand up and be a player. We don't need a military 'equal' to the USA. We just need a military that makes a difference in specific circumstances, in key scenarios. And we need CONSENSUS, because with CONSENSUS in the EU we can mobilise the power that we have already, the economic power, with a significant if not enormous military one.

chill

ionapaul wrote:

You know as well as I do of the talk over the past year of a 'fast-tracked' group of EU countries more intent on integration than most of the others - I believe these rumours / threats were first reported last Christmas during the impasse with the EU constitution. As we have been talking hypothechically from the very first post of this thread, no, I won't be supplying any interweb links to information to back up my particular hypothesis.

You spoke about it as if it is fact. I only spoke about what I 'hoped' for. Big difference.
The 'fast-tracked' issue is only talk talk talk. It is possible that a two tiered EU will emerge, but it is highly unlikely that it would be ruled by France and Germany.

OfflerCrocGod

chill wrote:

Wrong. Growth is irrelevant. And also growth is not linear. EU growth may increase dramatically in ten years time and Chinese growth may crash by then. Either way they wouldn't reach the economic influence of the EU for many decades.

Sure it could and Santa is real. China is not going to crash; in 20 years it will have the largest economy in the world and a military that will make the USA's look like a joke. R&D Investment is moving there, it will be more powerful then the US is now in 20 years, just watch, it will crush US and EU companies. Growth is relevant! The only way CN's growth will stop is by the US taking control of world oil or the prices reaching massive highs or oil running out all together.

chill wrote:

A worrying issue but not very likely. Immigration will continue, Immigrant populations are growing fast and modern industry is changing fast.

They are not being intergrated they need to feel as if they are European citizens and not foreigners in a foreign country! We in Europe are very bad at intergrating and I think it will harm us in the long run.

chill wrote:

Sadly I agree this is still true.
Until Europe wakes up and sees what is happening around the world, the danger to our very way of life, the new reality of global terrorism and unreformed Islamic domination and exploitation of it's people against us, then you will remain correct.

Islam dominates sh1t....so a bunch of poor, ignorant, powerless people in some backwater are Islamic, whoop-de-do give them a medal! Religions are meaningless and will become more so as time goes on.

chill wrote:

I just hope leadership can arrive in time to save us from ourselves and our parochial small mindedness typified by Ireland's disingenuous 'neutrality'.

Neutrality depends on the conflict, but I do dislike the 'neutral' crap people come up with here in Ireland.

chill wrote:

No. Time won't help either way, unless we LEARN. We need leadership to LEAD, despite the petty small mindedness of the people. Leaders lead and show the people they are right. They don't just act as agents of the people.

No we need time to intergrate, when the **** willl the UK switch to the € for God's sake?

chill wrote:

While I do see value in what you say - I do not claim that we need to turn ourselves into another USA.
We don't need to 'become' another USA.... we just need to stand up and be a player. We don't need a military 'equal' to the USA. We just need a military that makes a difference in specific circumstances, in key scenarios. And we need CONSENSUS, because with CONSENSUS in the EU we can mobilise the power that we have already, the economic power, with a significant if not enormous military one.

The USA rarely uses that power but it has it available, that's what's important. Equality in everything including military technology is what we need. Anyway here is a nice article on Franco-German dominance of Europe

uberwolf

from todays Irish times
______________________
Iran, EU reach draft nuclear accord




IRAN: Iran and the European Union's three big powers have reached a tentative deal that could see Tehran avert UN Security Council sanctions over its disputed nuclear programme, Iranian and EU officials said.

The agreement, hammered out during two days of talks in Paris ending late on Saturday, awaits the go-ahead from Iran's clerical leadership, EU sources said.

Under the deal Iran would freeze all nuclear fuel enrichment and reprocessing activities until it has reached agreement with the EU over a package of economic, technological and security incentives in return for abandoning potentially weapons-related nuclear activities, the diplomats said.

"The time frame [ of the enrichment suspension] will be given by the pace of reaching overall agreement," an EU diplomat said.

A deal with the EU trio of Britain, Germany and France is Iran's best hope of avoiding a showdown with the US in the UN Security Council.

President Bush has dubbed Iran an "axis of evil" member, and vowed to prevent it from acquiring nuclear arms.

Israel also refuses to rule out strategic strikes against Iran's nuclear facilities.

Washington wants Iran's case to be sent to the Security Council but agreed last month to give the EU trio a final opportunity to negotiate a solution with Iran, which says its nuclear plants will only be used for a civilian atomic energy programme.

The EU trio told Iran it must freeze uranium enrichment - a process used to purify uranium into nuclear reactor fuel or to make bomb-grade material - before the November 25th board meeting of the UN's atomic watchdog, or face the Security Council.

"Negotiations were very hard and complicated but we reached a preliminary agreement on an expertise level," said Mr Hossein Mousavian, head of Iran's delegation in Paris.

"It is a framework that contains the viewpoints of all sides."

Iranian Foreign Minister Mr Kamal Kharrazi said: "The important thing is that there was acknowledgement that Iran is a country with a peaceful nuclear technology."

________________

this happened under the shadow of threat from the states, but there maybe something in this. The respect the EU in some parts of the world allows them negotiate like this. The States could not have achieved this deal.

chill

OfflerCrocGod wrote:

Sure it could and Santa is real. China is not going to crash;

This is a simplistic view of the world and of human history. Firstly nothing stays the same, secondly the Chinese peopel are in the middle of a revolution bigger than almost any in the history of modern humanity. They are acquiring material wealth fast, but no freedom to go with it. Do you seriously think this will continue ? With a fast deepening chasm between the poverty in the regios and the wealth in the cities ?
I don't know what will happen but it is very naive to suggest that it will all keep going nicely over the next twenty years and China will pass the EU and US etc.
I suggest that it will be far from true. I suggest that it will stutter seriously in the coming decade and the initial rocketing expansion will slow considerably, and the political situation simply cannot survive this kind of revolution.

Religions are meaningless and will become more so as time goes on.

On the contrary, I suggest that we are in the middle of the biggest resurgence of Religion in a century. Islam is spreading and intent on aggressively undermining western values and way of life, illustrated by this weeks murder of the director in Holland (?) while at home it is remaining unreformed and keeping it's people in the middle ages. In the US religion is driving US domestic and foreign policy like never before. Only in Europe is religion integrated into people's lives successfully, up to now.

Time ? There is no time.

uberwolf

chill wrote:

Islam is spreading and intent on aggressively undermining western values and way of life, illustrated by this weeks murder of the director in Holland (?) while at home it is remaining unreformed and keeping it's people in the middle ages. Only in Europe is religion integrated into people's lives successfully, up to now.

Islam is in Europe too as you acknowledge is a major cause of instability. Both France and Holland have the ramifications of a major Islamic presence in the fore front of the political sphere nationally. I can't speculate how this will impact the EU but my impressions are that so far it is not going well. Perhaps this is principally a consequence of a minority of violently minded fundamentalists but In France their actions were prompted by concerns over the average muslim, not the nut case ones

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

mike65

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3954631.stm its not French enough apparently.

Mike.

OfflerCrocGod

mike65 wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3954631.stm its not French enough apparently.

hehe, I posted that up earlier in the thread Mike, forgotten? Anyway chill the Chinese are hyper-nationalistic, they will try everything to stay together, united and strong.......but creeping Western individualism may just - just! - cause some damage if the Chinese countryside is not taken care of. The farmers of China are the biggest threat to the Party not the students. As for religion, yes it is dying, what we are seeing right now is the upheaval of a religion spurned on by people who know their religion will end up like christianity in Europe. That strikes fear into their power hungry hearts and so they try to fight the "Evil West". They will fail, all despots fail, it's just a matter of when. Do you really believe that in 200 years time there will still be such massive ignorance and poverty in the Middle-East? It may take many years but in the end they will be as powerful as the Pope is in Europe, i.e. powerless.