Kerry Won. Here the facts by Greg Palast

chewy

from the man who broke the story the last time...

http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=392&row=0

conspiracy theories are uncool, but we all know in Ireland the government lost the arguement for electronic voting big time! without a paper trail there's no real proof no recount... the owners of diebold could have easily won the elections for Bush.. they had the capability why wouldnt't they do it

unkel

From the article:

So what's going on here? Answer: the exit polls are accurate

Yeah, more accurate than the ballot :rolleyes:

chewy

" watched the c-span recording of the congressional hearings into what went wrong during reporting of the 2000 elections on the morning of the 2004 elections. one of the media heads testified that the accuracy of exit polling has increased dramatically in the last 3 elections to a 2% margin of error (from above 10% margin of error) this was "based on impirical data."

if the difference is less than 2% from the actual record it may be hard to prove.. it is above then that's the story."

steviec

Seriously, that article just shows pure desperation. Can't people accept that Bush won the election fair and square this time, receiving more votes than any US President in history in the process?
The democrats had those challengers just like the republicans did, and they didn't do a whole lot in either case. And I'm not exactly sure how a machine is less likely to punch through a piece of paper fully if the person standing in front of it is black, he never seemed to explain that. Also the big evil black-oppressing Republican secretary of State for Ohio is black himself. So I guess that means his vote was probably spoiled. And since he's black he must have been voting Kerry, as the article says.

Whatever about 2000, nobody can claim that this election was undemocratic, it had record turnouts and Bush won the popular vote by 4 million. The Senate and House of Congress have republican majorities. I think the American people made it clear what the majority of them want, whether people on this side of the world like it or not.

chewy

" Can't people accept that Bush won the election fair and square this time, receiving more votes than any US President in history in the process?"

you have some doubt over whether he won it fair and square last time, why would he win it right this time? as pointed out he also received more anti-bush/kerry votes then any president in us history...

with all these shenigans going on you telling me the us is democractic?

Sparks

steviec wrote:

Seriously, that article just shows pure desperation. Can't people accept that Bush won the election fair and square this time, receiving more votes than any US President in history in the process?

Well, we could, but the problem is that most people aren't anti-american. We don't want to believe that nearly sixty million people conciously voted for a man with a proven record for destroying international relations, domestic stability, economic prosperity and who has all the linguistic skill of a drunk five minutes after closing time. We don't want to believe the numbers that tell us that vast swathes of people voted for homophobic, xenophobic, hate-filled reasons. We don't want to believe that because of these 30% of the US population, that we're facing the very real threat of the world diving head-first into a series of brushfire wars as if it was the 1980s all over again, or the possibility of a US-EU trade war, or just the sheer irritation of having to watch Bush murder the english language on television time and again.

It's ironic when you think of it - protest against bush and you get called anti-american. But in order to support his election wholeheartedly now, you'd have to be anti-american.

ColoradoGal

I just wanted to say hello to all you lovely folks in Ireland and thank you for following our election and for those who were hoping that Bush would be replaced with Kerry.

I am very, very depressed about this - as are 55 Millions Americans, as I'm sure you know. I've never seen such passion in an election as I did in tring to fire Bush and to to put a more progressive person like Kerry. If you only could have seen all the energy and passion on the Left side!! People who worked day and night for free for getting Kerry elected. I spent countless hours myself on this effort, that didn't compare to thousands of those who gave much more.

Although I think that Kerry's campaign folks made some tactical mistakes, that our mainstream media is sad, and that Bush & Co. ran a slimy campaign on fear, I feel that the blame and "The Buck stops" with those Americans who voted for George Bush, period.

I do feel alienated from half of my country. No, I'm not one of those "elite liberals" which is what they like to call us. I don't look down upon small town people who go to church regularly (some Big City liberals here and in Europe do). But I used to believe in the American People as a whole, even through that silly Clinton impeachment, the American People stood by him and overwhelmingly opposed that action. But now, I just don't understand them! Maybe 9/11 really did change us. Damn that Osama!! I don't know what I'll say to the first person who blurts our that they voted for Bush, I'm sure it won't be pretty. (and no I'm not going to engage in that discussion on this site as I suspect I'd get banned from what I might say :-)

Beloved people of Ireland: Please, please don't forget the beautiful millions of Americans who want a more progressive, more peaceful America and world. The Schrub still does not speak for the American people!! No, I'm not planning on moving to Canada. This is my country that I love passionately. I still have faith that we can triumph over the veil of fear.

American progressives will be in shock, and depression for a while. Many here have likened it to having a death in the family. But that passion that was overspilling on our side is not dead. We've been through worse in this country and we will keep fighting for a better day.

Peace and Love to you all.
Lauren
a.k.a. ColoradoGal

PH01

I don't believe that the numbers are there for Kerry in Ohio. He got the vote out but it wasn't good enough. Simply the numbers aren't there.

Bush's won by by 136,483 votes. And if we take it that say 250,000 votes (Today, the Cleveland Plain Dealer reports there are a total of 247,672 votes not counted in Ohio, if you add the 92,672 discarded votes plus the 155,000 provisional ballots) were left to be counted, Kerry would have to get 193,000 of these ballots inorder to just draw level with Bush.
That's nearly 78% of the ballots not counted just to draw level. And therefore he would need 80% to win comfortabily.
I don't think there's a constituency in the States that would have given Kerry 80% of the vote.
At the end of the day, the numbers aren't simply there for Kerry.

bobbyjoe

Some more conspiaracy theories while we're at it.
This one's about voting machines.

Diabold

Hope we never bring evoting in here

MG

As someone who believes that Bush is the worst US President in recent memory, I think this is an unnecessary distraction from the real business. I wouldn't put any type of jiggerypokery past the GOP but so what if Kerry won by a few thousand votes. The country is still divided. The Democrats should forget about the conspiracy theories and concentrate on getting voters nehind them. In theory, this isn't an insurmountable challenge. Vitually all their voters will stick with them next time around, but one wonders whether those who voted for Bush out of fear (a largely unjustified fear whipped up by the Republicans) will remain fearful for long. People react to fear but they prefer hope.

seamus

All exit polls I saw for Ohio said that Bush took the state.

I don't like to support it, but let's not kid ourselves here.

Women on the whole voted more for Kerry. Men on the whole voted more for Bush. At the end of the day, the aggregate worked out that more Men voted for Bush, than women didn't vote for Bush.

For example, say Women were 55% of the voters. And say 55% of women voted for Kerry, and 40% of Men voted for Kerry. The figures work out like this:

As part of the whole, Men who voted for Kerry were 18% of the voters.
Women who voted for Kerry make up 30.25% of the whole electorate.

Therefore Kerry receives 48.25% of the votes with the rest going to Bush, ergo Kerry loses.

Keep in mind these aren't exact figures, but something similar to what they were, for illustrative purposes. I worked it out on the day from CNNs exit poll to see where Ohio would go, and Bush came out ~0.9% ahead of Kerry. I found it interesting that neither candidate took 50% or more of the votes.

[EDIT:
Actually, here we go, the real exit poll from CNN.

Men = 47% of the electorate. 52% to Bush, 47% to Kerry.
Women = 53% of electorate. 50% to Bush, 50% to Kerry.

Men who voted for Kerry = 22.09% of electorate.
Women who voted for Kerry = 26.5% of the Electorate.
Total polled who voted for Kerry = 48.95%

Men who voted for Bush = 24.44% of electorate.
Women who voted for Bush = 26.5% of the Electorate.
Total polled who voted for Bush = 50.94%

I thought neither had received over 50%. Maybe I was thinking of another state.

And those two figures are so close to the actual result, I think they're accurate enough to be reliable.

sovtek

ColoradoGal wrote:

If you only could have seen all the energy and passion on the Left side!! People who worked day and night for free for getting Kerry elected.

And if more energy was spent on supporting a candidate that actually represented the majority of Democrats, instead of trying to get Nader off the ballot....that may very well not have been in vain.
Sorry had to say it sometime.
Next time don't tell people that want to vote their conscience that they shouldn't...because the ABB illogic has proven it's failure.
Next time don't tell the Democrat's to "move right".
Don't tell those peope that want true reform in America to "shut up and vote blah blah".
K got it out ....sorry this isn't all directed at you CG

Nuttzz

Of course the Republicans accuse the Democrats of trying to cheat also

From the "lovely" ann coulter website http://www.anncoulter.org

"They had liberal thugs ransacking Bush-Cheney headquarters, stealing Bush-Cheney signs and slashing the tires of Bush-Cheney get-out-the-vote vans on Election Day. In Colorado, they traded voter registrations for crack cocaine. In Ohio, they registered Mary Poppins and Dick Tracy. In South Carolina, Emily's List called Republican households and gave them incorrect information about the location of polling places."

I love the one about the crack cocaine!

"The Democrats' cheating never stopped. The big story of this election is the fraudulent exit polls on Election Day. Strange as it seems to me, it is well acknowledged that people are more likely to come out and vote for a winner. Early exit polls showing Kerry the clear winner could be expected to depress the vote for Bush."

"The exit polls were absurd: They showed Kerry winning Pennsylvania by 20 points and Bush tied with Kerry in Mississippi. Only monkey business can explain the wildly pro-Kerry exit polls "

"But for all their chicanery, vote-stealing, Hollywood starlets, fake polls and faux patriotism, the Democrats were wiped out on Election Day."

Both sides accuse each other of more or less the same thing, personally I dont trust the voting machines and much prefer the tradition paper vote. I would hope we dont abandon it here.

To be honest its now over, Bush is in, Kerry isnt going to fight that, we need to move on. The democrats should start looking for their next candidate now.

dahamsta

a) Thanks for taking the time to post ColoradoGal, nice to see not only nutcases coming over here to talk to us.

b) Ann Coulter is a whore. Sorry, but she is.

c) The message below was posted to Dave Farber's IP list. I don't hold much hope tbh, posting it purely for informational reasons.

From: Alan Patti
Date: November 4, 2004 3:32:17 PM EST
To: Dave Farber
Subject: Ohio Not Official for 10 Days?

For IP:
What are people's thoughts on this?

A friend of mine got off the phone with the office of the Ohio Secretary of State and was told the following:

- Kerry's concession has no legal bearing on who wins the election.

- Ohio has been using and counting provisional ballots the exact same way for the past 10 elections.

- Ohio and Federal law dictate that the state will wait 10 days and then begin counting the provisional ballots.

- All valid provisional ballots will be counted.

- The winner of the state of Ohio shall not be considered official until such time as all provisional ballots have been counted.

- If Kerry is found to win Ohio, regardless of his public concession, he will win the election.

The woman she spoke with asked that people post this information far and wide because, for whatever reason, the media aren't reporting it.

There remain a couple of questions though. As of yesterday, Secretary of State Blackwell said there were about 175,000 provisional ballots, but that didn't include about 10 counties that hadn't turned theirs in yet. Did those counties include huge democratic stronghold and highly populated Cuyahuga county, that contains Cleveland?


J. Kenneth Blackwell
Ohio Secretary of State
180 E. Broad St. 16th Floor
Columbus, OH 43215

General Telephone Number (Toll Free): 1-877-767-6446 General Telephone Number (Local): 1-614- 466-2655

Elections questions or comments:
email: election@sos.state

NZAI

Greg Palast was going to write this article no matter what.

His writings are interesting, but he has a major agenda and is outrageously biased for a journalist.

Raskolnikov

Nuttzz wrote:

Of course the Republicans accuse the Democrats of trying to cheat also

From the "lovely" ann coulter website http://www.anncoulter.org

"They had liberal thugs ransacking Bush-Cheney headquarters, stealing Bush-Cheney signs and slashing the tires of Bush-Cheney get-out-the-vote vans on Election Day. In Colorado, they traded voter registrations for crack cocaine. In Ohio, they registered Mary Poppins and Dick Tracy. In South Carolina, Emily's List called Republican households and gave them incorrect information about the location of polling places."

I love the one about the crack cocaine!

"The Democrats' cheating never stopped. The big story of this election is the fraudulent exit polls on Election Day. Strange as it seems to me, it is well acknowledged that people are more likely to come out and vote for a winner. Early exit polls showing Kerry the clear winner could be expected to depress the vote for Bush."

"The exit polls were absurd: They showed Kerry winning Pennsylvania by 20 points and Bush tied with Kerry in Mississippi. Only monkey business can explain the wildly pro-Kerry exit polls "

"But for all their chicanery, vote-stealing, Hollywood starlets, fake polls and faux patriotism, the Democrats were wiped out on Election Day."

Both sides accuse each other of more or less the same thing, personally I dont trust the voting machines and much prefer the tradition paper vote. I would hope we dont abandon it here.

To be honest its now over, Bush is in, Kerry isnt going to fight that, we need to move on. The democrats should start looking for their next candidate now.

I particularily liked . . .

It's absurd that the election was as close as it was. The nation is at war, Bush is a magnificent wartime leader, and the night before the election we didn't know if a liberal tax-and-spend, Vietnam War-protesting senator from Massachusetts would beat him.

Hardly very democratic! Anyway, I thought Bush proclaimed that the war was over?

caulfield

Hi,

As someone who hoped for a Democratic victory, I think we have to accept that 52% of the American people have spoke and what Bush to lead for anther 4 years.
I believe that primarily the reason why he won, was because of the way he communicated fear to Americans. I tip my hat to Karl Rove who has done a sensational job for the Republicans.
Moral values and the thought of losing them, were a huge issue.
To my knowledge, 11 States voted on legislation for gay marriage on election day. Again that was very clever by Republicans. I have no problem at all with gay marriage, and believe that homosexuals should have this right. However, (and I am straight), I believe that I am a minority in this country and I feel that the vast majority of Irish people are against gay marriage. This is one of the major reasons why Bush got elected and I think we are little Hypercritical to complain to the Americans that they are too conservative.

Slan
Caulfield

Sparks

52% of the americans who turned up to vote, not 52% of the american people. There are 256 million of the latter; only 58 million voted for Bush. That's 23%, give or take.

por

seamus wrote:

[EDIT:
Actually, here we go, the real exit poll from CNN.

Men = 47% of the electorate. 52% to Bush, 47% to Kerry.
Women = 53% of electorate. 50% to Bush, 50% to Kerry.

Men who voted for Kerry = 22.09% of electorate.
Women who voted for Kerry = 26.5% of the Electorate.
Total polled who voted for Kerry = 48.95%

Men who voted for Bush = 24.44% of electorate.
Women who voted for Bush = 26.5% of the Electorate.
Total polled who voted for Bush = 50.94%

Seamus, stop allowing facts get in the way of a good conspiarcy theory, the Republicans cheated and that is that ......... :rolleyes:

caulfield

Sparks wrote:

52% of the americans who turned up to vote, not 52% of the american people. There are 256 million of the latter; only 58 million voted for Bush. That's 23%, give or take.

Your missing the point sparks, and actually, it's 293 million Americans but course all cannot vote.
My post was not about figures, I do acknowledge that Bush won the electoral vote and the popular vote. What I was talking about is what caused this to happen and the values of conservatism.

Sparks

Indeed caulfield; I'm just trying to be pedantic in the cause of anti-anti-americanism.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

PH01

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

which is a myth.

shotamoose

seamus wrote:

All exit polls I saw for Ohio said that Bush took the state.

Exit polls were subsequently adjusted to reflect the final vote. A little strange, I know, but there you go.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Essey

Sparks wrote:

Well, we could, but the problem is that most people aren't anti-american. We don't want to believe that nearly sixty million people conciously voted for a man with a proven record for destroying international relations, domestic stability, economic prosperity and who has all the linguistic skill of a drunk five minutes after closing time. We don't want to believe the numbers that tell us that vast swathes of people voted for homophobic, xenophobic, hate-filled reasons. We don't want to believe that because of these 30% of the US population, that we're facing the very real threat of the world diving head-first into a series of brushfire wars as if it was the 1980s all over again, or the possibility of a US-EU trade war, or just the sheer irritation of having to watch Bush murder the english language on television time and again.


Hey Sparks - can we have a bit more drama there?? 60 million people are wrong - but your right??? The unemployment rate in the US is 5.5% - whats it in Ireland? Today it was announced that payrolls in the US experienced an increase in Oct. Gay rights are championed and protected here in the US - they just cant get married - cant they in Ireland? What about a womans right to choose - what are her choices in Ireland? Trade war? No war - the US dollar is weak make US good more competitive than Europes - would buy something that was more expense - just because the Europeans are cute? Murder the English language - ever been to Cork?

Essey

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

He did daveirl - but the insurgents didnt get the memo.

eoin_f

peeps,

i don not and cannot disagree that many are not happy with the result of the US elections, in the end they now have a leader who has been voted in according to their own laws and voting system, if there had been voting discrepencies so be it, if it is found out and highlighted all the better. there is little use in bickering after the result, i for one would prefer a proper election system as we have here in ireland but is bnever going to happen due to the sheer vast size of the country.

sorry to say but have to grin and bear for the time being but the great thing is the awareness this has made on a global platform.

E><

ps. if and whne i enter polotics here please vote for my enemy!!

sceptre

Essey wrote:

The unemployment rate in the US is 5.5% - whats it in Ireland?

Less

I'm interested though - what were you going to say if someone produced figures showing it was more?

Murder the English language - ever been to Cork?

It only gets really bad amongst the drunks five minutes after closing time. Besides, it isn't compulsory in Cork.

Redleslie2

sceptre wrote:

Less

Yeah and we don't have a huge prison system and government revenue gobbling military to help lower the rate further either.

Gay rights are championed and protected here in the US - they just cant get married - cant they in Ireland?

No but a dress wearing bender can present telly bingo and the oul wans don't bat an eyelid.

Hobbes

sceptre wrote:

Less

I'm interested though - what were you going to say if someone produced figures showing it was more?

The numbers for unemployment in the USA is based on how many are on welfare. Once your off welfare you are no longer counted as unemployed (your not even a statistic). I believe the unemployment number is around 8%-10% after adjustment.