[articles] Politicians go into hiding after Van Gogh Murder

pickarooney

unkel wrote:

It's not a century from now, neither is it a few decades. The majority of secondary school children in Amsterdam and Rotterdam are muslim. The most popular name for a new born boy in those cities has been Mohammed for many years

Rubbish, barely 5% of Dutch inhabitants are Muslim. Unless you do your surveys in Islamic schools.

bonkey

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Apologies daveirl...it wasn't really targetted at you...I just didn't make that clear, and this was probably the wrong thread to pick that particular fight....

All I'm asking is that there is a proactive policy of integration.

I'd settle for any policy that was actually upheld for a start...

You can't just stick your fingers in your ears and pretend that there isn't a problem.

Lordy no. There most certainly are problems (not just one) and they most certainly should be dealt wth. But its the problems, and not the symptoms that I'd like to see addressed, and I'm generally not convinced that most of today's kneejerkist approaches to "fixing problems" fix anything or even target problems.

Why do you automatically assume that we'll all integrate into a peaceful multi-cultural society?

I don't. I believe that this should be our goal, for a variety of reasons....which are most probably the work of another topic.

jc

pork99

A muslim majority in Europe - assuming there is no change in the culture of Islam would mean Europe becoming part of the 3rd World. Europe's prosperity is very dependent on being a liberal secular society.

If you want a history lesson - Get Tolerant - Get Rich

There's no doubt that Europe needs immigrants but do they all have to be from Muslim countries? Wouldn't it be fairer on everyone to control immgration so there is a healthy mixture of peoples and cultures coming in? There must be 10s of millions of people in Eastern Europe, non-Muslim Africa, Latin America, India and China who would be delighted to migrate to European countries. Immigrants from these backgrounds should integrate better into our society and culture - and that doesn't mean people from Muslim countries wouldn't get their chances also.

Frank Grimes

pork99 wrote:

Wouldn't it be fairer on everyone to control immgration so there is a healthy mixture of peoples and cultures coming in?

How is it unfair at the moment?

pork99

Frank Grimes wrote:

How is it unfair at the moment?

maybe more chaotic than unfair

Frank Grimes

pork99 wrote:

maybe more chaotic than unfair

Ok, how is it more chaotic at the moment then?
Also, a lot of the Muslim population in the West is being made up now of converts and the children of immigrants etc. so the "problem" isn't soley with immigrants.

OfflerCrocGod

I afto agree with Frank Grimes here in that Muslims* are a threat to Europe, our society and our way of life. We should be letting in more Latin-Americans, Chinese and Indians. Fewer religious loony-toons, more sane people open to intergration into European society. You don't like the West, you don't agree with the West, you don't support the West, you wish to subvert the West. Well, that's fine by me but.....
**** OFF BACK TO YOUR OWN ****ING COUNTRY THEN
You disagree with our lifestyles? You can disagree back in Algeria or whatever ****hole country you crawled out of. Bye, Bye, now. Don't send us a postcard when you get there. Makes sense to me, right Frank Grimes??


*Any and all religions, Muslims are the just an example.

Frank Grimes

OfflerCrocGod wrote:

Makes sense to me, right Frank Grimes??

I have not said anywhere that I believe Muslims are a threat, what on earth are you talking about?

swiss

I have not said anywhere that I believe Muslims are a threat, what on earth are you talking about?

I suspect he was being facetious. Otherwise he's just trolling.

On a personal note, I can only see these developments as leading to a furthur polarisation between the Arab and non-Arab world. Yes, there are Christian as well as Islamic fundamentalists, and I find both equally disturbing and objectionable. However at the moment the Islamic fundamentalist movement appears to have garnered some strength and is consequently more visible than it's Christian counterpart. This is due in no small measure to US involvement in Iraq, but that's a different debate.

The major issue facing countries like the Netherlands is finding an effective manner of dealing with the threat such radicals present without harming the culture of tolerance and openness for which they are so famous. However it is darkly ironic that such an open and liberal society could foster such intolerance and conservative views as a direct result of that tolerance.

My view is that anyone who attempts to change the culture or laws of the Netherlands should do so only within the democratic and legal confines of that society. Since it was the Islamic element who threatened this democracy in such a way, with contempt for the democratic and legal process, their goals and aims should not be entertained. All necessary measures in accordance within those confines should be taken to rally against these attempts to destabilise Dutch society.

gandalf

OfflerCrocGod wrote:

I afto agree with Frank Grimes here in that Muslims* are a threat to Europe, our society and our way of life. We should be letting in more Latin-Americans, Chinese and Indians. Fewer religious loony-toons, more sane people open to intergration into European society. You don't like the West, you don't agree with the West, you don't support the West, you wish to subvert the West. Well, that's fine by me but.....
**** OFF BACK TO YOUR OWN ****ING COUNTRY THEN
You disagree with our lifestyles? You can disagree back in Algeria or whatever ****hole country you crawled out of. Bye, Bye, now. Don't send us a postcard when you get there. Makes sense to me, right Frank Grimes??


*Any and all religions, Muslims are the just an example.

I hope to god for your sake you are taking the p!ss with these comments. You have until this evening to explain them better before I ban you for racism. Lumping all Muslims in with fundamentalists is like saying all Americans are Warmongers because of the neo-cons.

Don't mess with me today I am at home dying with the flu !

Frank Grimes

Going to explain those comments OfflerCrocGod?

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Sand

However at the moment the Islamic fundamentalist movement appears to have garnered some strength and is consequently more visible than it's Christian counterpart.

Theres also the actual weakness of fundamentalist christianity. American evangilism, which is what most people mean when refering to fundamentalist christians by and large have toned down their "fire and brimstone" nature. Stuff like Christian rock is just a knockoff of regular music. There are Christian theme parks, the biggest ranks just behind the two Disney Lands. If "christianity" is more visible and more invoked its because its weaker, diluted and abandoning core values to attempt to sell the word to the masses. This is actually demonstrated by the Christian Right getting into politics - back in the 60s they were apolitical, believing they had no religious obligation to do anything other than preach the word and leave the sinners to their fiery imolation in the afterlife.

I can slag off Christianity because its so weak - I can go on national TV and say the whole bible is a load of crap and the Pope is a child molester and sleep quite soundly in my bed. As poor old Theo found out, and as Salman Rushdie has also found out you cant say similar things about the Islamic faith without living in fear for the rest of your life. And of course while it is popular to criticise the Christian faiths and institutions it is not acceptable to criticise the Islamic faith or institutions - thats racism.

However it is darkly ironic that such an open and liberal society could foster such intolerance and conservative views as a direct result of that tolerance.

Its not actually. Bushs comments that Al Qaida hate the US for their freedoms is often sneered at. Obviously, Al Qaida hate the US for the same reason arts students hate them.

But its not especially wrong - one of the philisophical fathers of modern militant Islam was an Egyptian, Sayed Qutb who wrote a hugely influential work on the Koran whilst living in the USA between 1948 and 1951. He was intensely offended by the immoral behaviour of Americans in general and their women in particular, in dance halls for example.

Many of these immigrants are coming from patriarchal, chauvinistic cultures where freedoms we take for granted are either unheard of or viewed in a bad light - we discuss whether its okay to kill unborn children at 6 weeks or 7 weeks whilst drinking alcohol with women were not related to in our company; thats not a common experience in Saudia Arabia where women arent even allowed to drive. Throw in a language barrier and youve the perfect recipe for culture shock, and the retreat to familiar or even fundamentalist values that help them explain the world theyve been thrown into even if its only in negative terms - actually especially if its in negative terms because this helps breed a sense of superiority which we all like.

We shouldnt be surprised that a highly secular/immoral society can be tough for people brought up in other cultures to adjust to. Think how easily would you adjust to a society where the appropriate thing to do with a woman who slept with another man was to stone her? Not only accept it should be done, but actually help out with the stoning yourself?

Also, a lot of the Muslim population in the West is being made up now of converts and the children of immigrants etc. so the "problem" isn't soley with immigrants.

Thats the positive thing - The Islamic faith isnt irreconcilable with the modern world. There are female immans in China for example ( they have survived the Saudi sponsored Wahhibi kulturkamp because the Chinese refuse to allow any foreign inteference with anything in their country ). Most of the negative things that have been assigned to the Islamic faith are actually more to do with the local culture than the religion itself, and that cultures *interpretations* of hadith.

As such Muslims born in Europe, who know only the European culture, are quite likely to accept it without any real difficulties assuming that culture accepts them. Thats the kicker because if the culture doesnt, or if muslim immigrants become marginalised youll end up with Ballymun breeding fanatical radicals who reject the culture thats marginalised them, which is perfectly understandable.

And theres no Muslim institutions, like the Catholic Church, that can crack down on extremists and rein them in to the party line. The Islamic faith is rather anarchic - a Pakistani taxi driver in New York has as much right to issue a fatwa against a herectic as Osama bin Laden or Sistani. With fanatics out there willing to kill people they will are apostates, this can terrorise the moderates. This has already happened across the Arab world where even the moderates have to couch themselves in appropriate language or fear being murdered. This has to be prevented in Europe somehow, though its difficult to see how.

Lumping all Muslims in with fundamentalists is like saying all Americans are Warmongers because of the neo-cons.

Heh, we all know that would never happen.

OfflerCrocGod

gandalf wrote:

I hope to god for your sake you are taking the p!ss

Of course I was! I was saying the total opposite of what Frank Grimes was saying and I said I agreed with him! I though putting one of these would have spoilt the effect. I was voicing an extreme form of BattleBoars thoughs and yet I was saying I agreed with Frank who was arguing against BattleBoar.

It's just going to take time before the Middle-East and Islamic society catch-up with Europe and the rest of the West. Europe once had the inquisition and in Spain it only stopped in 1834 so I think the Islamic world just needs time to mature and progress. Europe didn't just move from the collapse of the Roman Empire to the Renaissance straight to the Industrial Revolution. The church was just as powerful a force in Europe as Islam is in the Middle-East right now. Now look at the church! it doesn't have the power to find it's own ass with a map. In 200 years time it will be the same with Islam.

por

OfflerCrocGod wrote:

Of course I was! I was saying the total opposite of what Frank Grimes was saying and I said I agreed with him! I though putting one of these would have spoilt the effect. I was voicing an extreme form of BattleBoars thoughs and yet I was saying I agreed with Frank who was arguing against BattleBoar.

It's just going to take time before the Middle-East and Islamic society catch-up with Europe and the rest of the West. Europe once had the inquisition and in Spain it only stopped in 1834 so I think the Islamic world just needs time to mature and progress. Europe didn't just move from the collapse of the Roman Empire to the Renaissance straight to the Industrial Revolution. The church was just as powerful a force in Europe as Islam is in the Middle-East right now. Now look at the church! it doesn't have the power to find it's own ass with a map. In 200 years time it will be the same with Islam.

I agree, seeing as Islam dates from approx 500AD it is 500 years behind Christanity in terms of maturity.

ionapaul

por wrote:

I agree, seeing as Islam dates from approx 500AD it is 500 years behind Christanity in terms of maturity.

In that case Christianity is a good long way behind Buddism, and both are FAAAAAAAAARRRR behind Hinduism in terms of maturity!
I don't you can argue that religions progress and become more mature over time in the same way humans do (or are supposed to!)

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

gandalf

Who says they need to catch up at one stage they were ahead of us in Christian Europe. Heres good article from David McWilliams about what has gone wrong with the Islamic world.

Article here.

Basically what McWilliams is saying in the article is that Religion and Oil are holding the Middle Eastern countries back and after reading it I agree with him. The Elite classes that have control of the oil wealth are lazy and have no motivation to take risks or change the status quo.

Lennoxschips

Hi, just seen this thread.

I am currently living in the Netherlands, and have for 12 years now.

As far as I can see the tensions in the society at the moment are down to both sides, and people blaming it on Islamic culture are not looking at the full picture.

The Netherlands native whites have never been the world's most accepting people when it comes to race relations. They have a very dodgy record with regards to World War II (the survival rate for Dutch Jews was the lowest in Europe, yes, lower than Germany). Racism has never really been taboo in Dutch society - Santa's helpers here are black men (called Black Piet). When Santa comes, grown men and women all over the country put on black make up, paint their lips bright red and wear big afro's. The Dutch word for a black person is "neger." The nation has yet to see the offensiveness of any of this.

I'm not saying that the Dutch are to blame for the problems at the moment, both sides are to blame. But the right wing government, which is coming up with all sorts of strange ideas has not helped. (Some ideas include: banning people from marrying non-EU citizens, deporting immigrant families that have lived here for up to 10 years with their Dutch born children (this has been done) and suggesting that immigrants wear special colour-coded badges to show how integrated they are within Dutch society) The Dutch media is also openly racist. Second and even third generation immigrants, born and bred in the Netherlands, who speak Dutch as their native language, are referred to on television as "Moroccans" and "Turks."

Muslims in the Netherlands have been stigmatised and discriminated for 30 years. They came in as immigrants and replaced the Dutch working class. The current uprising is coming mostly from second and third generation immigrants - Dutch people. So I would conclude that the problems in the Netherlands at the moment are an inherent problem of Dutch society, caused by the massive inequalities between the working classes and the elite classes. That the working and elite classes are of a different race unfortunately only adds fuel to the fire, but it is not the crux of the problem.