A little bit about Dan Puder

dlofnep

I'm not an avid wrestling fan like I used to be but you would of seen Daniel Puder over the last few weeks on tough enough. This is the guy who pulled half guard on Kurt Angle and slapped a kimura on him. I'm sure you all know by now that this was un-scripted and depending on your grappling knowledge you may or may not know that Angle was not getting out of the kimura and he would of tapped out clearly in the referee's hadn't acted fast to call a pin.

Daniel Puder has won a few grappling tournaments - His most famous win was in a Machado grappling tournament. He also has a flawless mixed martial art's record. Some sites are saying 4-0 but I think it's more along the lines of 1-0.

Make no mistake about it, this guy is the real deal. He trained with Frank Shamrock (adopted brother of Ken Shamrock and clearly more skilled than Ken) for a number of years.

Keep your eye out for this guy. He is a real fighter with real skill. He's already proved that by locking down your olympic gold medalist.

gimmick

Kimura is an illegal hold in Pro Wrestling.

Apparently Angle was furious with what happened.

Unfortuneatley, its reckoned that Puder will be first to go. It hasnt earned him too much respect, as by embarrassing the companies top guy hardly endears yourself, though a few backstage (from what ive read) are delighted, as Angle isnt the most popular guy in the world.

savemejebus

I had no idea that the kimura is an illegal hold and i'd imagine puder didn't either. He asked the ref at the start of the match if submissions were allowed and the ref said yeah so he just went for one. would have loved to be a fly on the wall in the dressing room though

Ph3n0m

gimmick wrote:

Kimura is an illegal hold in Pro Wrestling.

Where did you get that information?

gimmick

Just from another msg board
here .

and some interesting discussion here

cannonballkid

i didnt get to see that on smackdown. Im not sure what the kimura is can someone describe it please

savemejebus

Don't think i can explain it well enuf so here is a gif of the action, watch angles arm at the end, puder pushes up on the wrist while cranking the shoulder down, basically using opposing pressures to push the shoulder out of the socket ( and i think put stess on the elbow)

cannonballkid

looks cool. thanks man

savemejebus

found a video of it here ,http://the_phenom.spymac.net/angleowned.avi, it's worth checking out just to hear a fan shout "puder kicked your ass" to angle at the end of the clip. It's around 7mb in size

Magnolia_Fan

From what I could see though Puders shoulders were actually down, whether Kurt was going to tap out or not Puder lost fair and square...Fair Play to him though I hope he wins...He's gonna get my vote

Cactus Col

dlofnep wrote:

Keep your eye out for this guy. He is a real fighter with real skill. He's already proved that by locking down your olympic gold medalist.

As far as I'm concerned all he proved was that he's a dangerous asshole.

This dude used an ultimate fighting style move against a wrestler expecting a pro wrestling match. If he had surprised Angle by using a legitimate wrestling move .. then grand ... but to use an actual submission hold was dangerous and moronic.

Angle seemed to handle it well by pinning him so quickly, which shows how savy he actually is.

ShawnRaven

Reliable sources say that Angle could have gotten out of that hold in seconds and destroyed him. Given Angle's olympic past, i'd believe it.

VR!

cannonballkid

Olympic past or not the so called rookie got him in a move that could finish angle off i think thats good

ShawnRaven

Don't get me wrong! I'm not taking anything away from him. And besides, a mosquito biting on Angle's neck could finish him off at the minute, lets face it

VR!

savemejebus

As far as I'm concerned all he proved was that he's a dangerous asshole.

asshole he may be but i'd disagree with the dangerous part, I don't think his move would be even half as dangerous as if he'd decided to try a powerbomb or pileldriver or some other dangerous move that he wasn't trained in. The Kimura would only be a dangerous hold if he refused to release it or if Angle refused to tap, in which case angle would have been at fault, or at least his ego.

This dude used an ultimate fighting style move against a wrestler expecting a pro wrestling match. If he had surprised Angle by using a legitimate wrestling move .. then grand ... but to use an actual submission hold was dangerous and moronic.

Many submission holds in wrestling are actually lightly applied or half arsed real submission holds so what sets that move apart from any other real submission move that is lightly applied in wrestling matches? the armbar, the figure 4 , that half-crab. All these moves are legitimate submission moves and are often used in a wrestling match.

Angle seemed to handle it well by pinning him so quickly, which shows how savy he actually is.

I wouldn't give angle the credit here, i'd give it to the referee, he saw what was happening and gave the phantom 3count to spare any blushes or injurys for angle. Great officiating on his part.

Reliable sources say that Angle could have gotten out of that hold in seconds and destroyed him. Given Angle's olympic past, i'd believe it.

once that hold was sunk in i don't thinkthink angle would have been able to get out of it easily, he might have easily been able to counter it if he'd been expecting it but the fact is he wasn't, he was too distracted going for his own hold and got caught out and by the time he realised what was going dow the move was almost fully sunk in and he was in pain (look at his leg twitch in the video)


I think that this whole thing was the equivalent of a sucker punch, angle got hit with a move he wasn't expecting and at least part of that is his own fault as he didn't define the rules of his segment. Puder took a liberty on this and got the upper hand due to surprise.

I couldn't condone the guy using a move like that in a proper match but to be fair this was unscripted, it was kurt being sent out to fill 15 mins with guys that were wrecked and puking after pushup and squat contests. I haven't looked at the preceeding match too closely but i've heard that angle put the first guy into a guilotine hold and cranked his neck a bit, which if true means he was taking liberties and if thats the case he's just as bad as puder

What i'm amazed at is that the wwe isn't acting on this and building an angle out of it as this subject has been the biggest news on many mma bulletin boards for months. They could have milked this for all it's worth and contacted some big mma guy to come in for a programme but they didn't they just let it slide to hide angles blushes and in doing so put him before the company

Venom

They are not milking it due to the bad vibe it could send backstage. All matche winners are pre-determined before hand and the business cant work if it really was a free for all and every wrestler was truly out to win. If they pushed this noobie for the stunt then every newcomer would try crap like this and serious accidents and deaths could happen.

This guy while talented is a asshole for ****ing around as he could have seriously injured Angle by not following the script.

savemejebus

I understand the points you've made about the bad vibe being sent backstage but i wasn't talking about a real challenge a la butterbean and bart gunn, but a work, wwe vs ufc or something like that with someone like ken shamrock representing ufc and angle representing wwe, standard wwe rules applying etc or maybe an octagon ring, but still with predetermined winners. It would be excellent cross promotion publicity.

Also, what script was puder supposed to follow? from what i've read Angle was sent out there with no script, it was just assumed that he'd dominate using his olympic and mat wrestlling skills.

oneofakind32

I missed Smackdown this week was it an actual amiture wrestling rules match?

D-FENS

Personally, I couldn’t care less if he could legitimately take Angle or not.

Being able to hand a guy his ass in real life doesn’t mean anything,

Shamrock could have killed most guys in the Locker room in his time with WWF, didn’t get him much in the end, did it?

Same with Bart Gunn, the winner of Brawl for All and therefore the toughest man on the roster according to WWF, got him no where.

The requirements to make it in WWE are to safely apply the pre arranged moves, and to obviously make them look good as well. (I’m not saying Shamrock and Gunn were lacking this)

This, along with showing charisma/mic skills, whatever you what to call it, is what will bring you success. (Shamrock and Gunn were severely lacking this)

Basically, it doesn’t matter if you're the world toughest man, strongest man, tallest man, whatever,
getting over with the fans by making them think your cool or hate you and not completely stinking up the ring while you're at it is what's needed.

So far, Puder has shown nothing to say he can do this.

(Still funny though, and no harm to bruise Kurt's ego a bit)

dlofnep

Cactus Col wrote:

As far as I'm concerned all he proved was that he's a dangerous asshole.

This dude used an ultimate fighting style move against a wrestler expecting a pro wrestling match. If he had surprised Angle by using a legitimate wrestling move .. then grand ... but to use an actual submission hold was dangerous and moronic.

Angle seemed to handle it well by pinning him so quickly, which shows how savy he actually is.

I'm sorry but your lack of submission grappling knowledge does you no justice. Angle didn't actually have Puder pinned - Puder slapped a standing kimura on Angle and pulled him down into half guard (a jiu-jitsu defensive position). Angle wasn't going anywhere and he would of surely tapped out if it wasn't for the referee's quick thinking.

I praise Puder for what he done - WWE programming wanted to run these guys until they had no energy and then throw them in with an olypmic gold medalist wrestler to make them look bad. Puder did what he had to do to ensure he would have a chance of winning tough enough and actually gave Kurt Angle all he could handle.

For those who think that Kurt could of got out of the Kimura, you are highly mistaken. The counter to the kimura is to roll out of it - Kurt however could not roll out of it because Puder held in in half-guard.

In any case, this guy is the real deal - He's far from talentless. He's got my vote. Seems like a cool guy too..

Fozzy

dlofnep wrote:

In any case, this guy is the real deal - He's far from talentless. He's got my vote. Seems like a cool guy too..

The real deal....in the MMA world. Stating the obvious, WWE is not MMA, so why should this make him any better than any of the other guys? He's got talent alright, but it may not be the right talent required to become a wrestler.

RebelRockChick

How can this guy be praised , in Pro Wrestling , its a mortal sin to go against the script , it usually makes big news when it happens. Steiner in WCW , Bret in WWF. These guys want a WWE contract after all , not a professional ju jitsu contract , scripting is something they gonna have to get used to.

gimmick

RebelRockChick wrote:

How can this guy be praised , in Pro Wrestling , its a mortal sin to go against the script ,

There was no script. How many times must that be said? It was meant to be catching one of the TE contestants off guard, amke Angle look strong, and Puder (or whoever) look weak. As far as I see, Puder did nothing wrong, buit was perhaps a little naive.

Fozzy

gimmick wrote:

It was meant to be catching one of the TE contestants off guard, amke Angle look strong, and Puder (or whoever) look weak.

I'm not so sure that the plan was to make the contestants look weak.. It would be stupid if that were the case. Why would WWE want these guys to look weak and make people not want to watch them? Surely more people will watch if they all come off strong? And whoever wins needs to come off strong aswell, otherwise no one would take the winner seriously.

Hanza

Guys, you have it a bit messed up.

Wrestlers are all thought to shoot (for the late fan: wrestlers jargin for real, so in this case it means real fighting)

Kurt Angle above anyone in the WWE should be able to shoot with anyone. The segment was also shoot, as Kurt Angle was told to atempt to brake the contenders morale, making sure WWE votes were picking the strongest possible option, hence the name "tough enough".

The tough enough finalists were asked by Angle if they wanted to wrestle him. Having previously seen what Angle did to another TE contender the remaining trainees knew what they were in for. Kurt was asking to shoot with a volounter.

Daniel Puter stepped up. Kurt was off guard and almost beaten. It was Kurt Angles fault, no one elses. Daniel Puter did waht he was asked to do and did it. Puter is not a worker, so he wouldnt have the sence to let Angle beet him. Dangerous he is not. As a trained shoot fighter he is obviouosly the safest fighter out there.

The kimura is a side under hook key-lock, and not illegal in anyway. The only 2 illegal moves in WWE are the tiger and dragon suplexes. Pile drivers are alos frouned apon.

burningspirit

when did they make tiger and dragon suplexes illegal? havent seen either since 2000, but I never heard they where illegal.

Ph3n0m

burningspirit wrote:

when did they make tiger and dragon suplexes illegal? havent seen either since 2000, but I never heard they where illegal.

just to clear up a mistake that was mentioned earlier on

A Kimura is illegal in wrestling (olympic, amateur), it is not illegal in pro-wrestling (WWE style)

As for tiger, dragon suplexes and piledrivers - they are not longer used as frequently as they used to, as the risk of injury to the neck area of any recipient of the move was far too great.

Only to emphasise the closure or intensity of a match, will any piledriver type move be used (i.e. Rikishi, when he was with WWE rarely used his finisher, unless it was to emphasise a point)