Life. Is it worth living?

Chipboard

I am new to this forum, but I feel compelled to reply to the above threads. I am absolutely shocked at some of the comments above. Sure you have the right to feel bored/depressed/unloved etc but you have to realise its just a temporary thing. Everyone goes throught bad ****, some go through very bad **** but it makes you grow and become a better person. I'm not trying to belittle anyones problems. What seems like a small problem to one person could be astronomical to another, especially if they dont have anyone to talk to about it but surely you dont think you would grow (spiritually/intellectually) if you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth, lived a gift life, got all the beautiful women, were rich and never came up against adversary in your whole life. I can tell you, if this happened, you wouldn't appreciate the good stuff when it arrived because it was all good stuff ("there wouldn't be any sunshine, unless there was some rain"). I dont mean to talk down to anyone but I get a very strong feeling that some of the above posts are from younger people, say under the age of 30. I'm turning 32 in a few weeks time and I can tell you that some of what I considered the worst things that happened to me, actually turned out to be very fortuitous. There's no one thing that I could say that would convince you that it will get better (even though I know it will) but have a read of the following, it illustrates the point.


Two traveling angels stopped to spend the night in the home of a wealthy family. The family was rude and refused
to let the angels stay in the mansion's guest room. Instead the angels were given a space in the cold basement.
As they made their bed on the hard floor, the older angel saw a hole in the wall and repaired it.
When the younger angel asked why, the older angel replied....Things aren't always what they seem.

The next night the pair came to rest at the house of a very poor, but very hospitable farmer and his wife.
After sharing what little food they had, the couple let the angels sleep in their bed where they could have
a good nights rest.
When the sun came up the next morning the angels found the farmer and his wife in tears.
Their only cow, whose milk had been their sole income, lay dead in the field.

The younger angel was infuriated and asked the older angel - How could you have let this happen? The first man
had everything, yet you helped him,- she accused. -The second family had little but was willing to share everything,
and you let their cow die.

Things aren't always what they seem,- the older angel replied.
When we stayed in the basement of the mansion, I noticed there was gold stored in that hole in
the wall. Since the owner was so obsessed with greed and unwilling to share his good fortune, I sealed the
wall so he wouldn't find it. Then last night as we slept in the farmers bed, the Angel Of Death came for his wife. I gave her the cow instead. Things aren't always what they seem.

Sometimes things don't turn out the way you think they should. If you have faith, you just need to trust that every outcome is always to your advantage.
You might not know it until some time later.

elivsvonchiaing

Sounds like a rip-off of Paulo Coelho! However if this is your own stuff - sell it - looks good to me!

Chipboard

elivsvonchiaing wrote:

Sounds like a rip-off of Paulo Coelho! However if this is your own stuff - sell it - looks good to me!

Actually I didn't know that it was by Paulo Coelho. In fact, I never even heard of Paulo Coelho until now. I found this (the second part about the Angels) on a computer I was deleting files from around 3 years ago and it wasn't attributed to anyone - If my post looked like I was taking credit for it, apologies, but its doubtful if anybody would be stupid enough to attempt to take credit for someone else's (I assume published) short story, on the internet. The first part was by me but I hardly think that anyone is going to be pay money to hear it, and by the way who mentioned money - what has that got to do with it. I posted that with good intentions but they're obviously lost on some people.

By the way, the piece below was written by Epictetus - just in case you accuse me of ripping off him as well!

Neuro

blobert wrote:

On a philosophy related note, don't read any Schopenhauer. His views on life will depress the hell out of you. A lot of philosophy is quite depressing come to think of it.

Don't read Schopenhauer! Are you mad! Schopenhauer was one of the few people who was able to look at the world and see it for what it is and not what we believe it to be. Yes, the world is truly an ugly place full of suffering and pain and the best way to overcome this suffering is via a form of quietism (a renunciation of desire) through aesthetic appreciation.

While not the first philosopher to theorise about the existence of the unconscious mind, Schopenhauer was the first to contend that it was the primary source of all human actions, long before Freud (who claimed to have never read any of Schopenhauer's works). Schopenhauer's work is of more relevance today than ever before particularly as Behaviorism has been displaced by Evolutionary theories in the field of psychology.

If you're interested in Arthur Schopenhauer's work I'd suggest that you start with his book Essays and Aphorisms to get a general overview of his ideas before moving on to The World as Will and Representation.

At a more general level, I think people often get confused about the goal of philosophy. That goal is to find truth. But truth and consolation are not synonymous and it is on this point that many people fall down.

tribble

Chipboard wrote:

I am new to this forum, but I feel compelled to reply to the above threads. I am absolutely shocked at some of the comments above. Sure you have the right to feel bored/depressed/unloved etc but you have to realise its just a temporary thing. Everyone goes throught bad ****, some go through very bad **** but it makes you grow and become a better person. I'm not trying to belittle anyones problems. What seems like a small problem to one person could be astronomical to another, especially if they dont have anyone to talk to about it but surely you dont think you would grow (spiritually/intellectually) if you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth, lived a gift life, got all the beautiful women, were rich and never came up against adversary in your whole life. I can tell you, if this happened, you wouldn't appreciate the good stuff when it arrived because it was all good stuff ("there wouldn't be any sunshine, unless there was some rain"). I dont mean to talk down to anyone but I get a very strong feeling that some of the above posts are from younger people, say under the age of 30. I'm turning 32 in a few weeks time and I can tell you that some of what I considered the worst things that happened to me, actually turned out to be very fortuitous. There's no one thing that I could say that would convince you that it will get better (even though I know it will) but have a read of the following, it illustrates the point.

I don't think (and I may be wrong) that you have tried to intellectualise the issue. To really think about your continued existance, the why the wherefore.

Now - should you have a belief in God or some hope of an afterlife then perhaps you may just bide your time here, but if you do not, then life takes on an altogether different hue.

But as I dare say most people these days have no such faith and believe that at the end of the day as far as the individual is concerned death is death. An end. Not good, not bad, just nothing.
If you are continuing your existance simply for the sake or others then I would question you sanity - that is no way to live.

I'm not about to top myself, but I can't see why people in the west get so het up about those that do. Sure some are clinically depressed and could benifit from drugs, but I'm sure many just see no point, good or bad, in living.

transperson

why is atheism so rampant?has no-one any spiritual side? from a neutral stand point it makes things easier to deal with.for the entirity of human history people have believed in something more but now over even my short life that has all changed.

for me what keeps me going is,hope/belief/curiosity in something more,be it futurelives,heaven,knowledge,experience,love,people,family,pleasure,nirvana,learning,discovery,growth and the whole world.in fact there is no reason not to be joyful in existance.its when i'm trapped in a way of looking at things that i get down on life,it always just takes time to realise that its only how this wee me is looking at things.once i do then im not sad anymore.read Power of the Now by eckhart toole [i think his name is anyway].it cant but change how you look at yourself and the world and bring joy to your life.

simu

transperson wrote:

why is atheism so rampant?

It's not really - only a tiny percentage of the world's population would describe themselves as atheists. Any one know if there are exact figures available for this? Twould be interesting to see if the proportion of atheists in the population is increasing or decreasing.

Neuro

transperson wrote:

why is atheism so rampant?has no-one any spiritual side

I'd rather be unhappy and sane than happy and deluded. As for The Power of Now, it's little more than saccharine pseudo-philosophical nonsense.

Pherekydes

Neuro wrote:

I'd rather be unhappy and sane than happy

To prefer being unhappy is hardly the mark of sanity.

transperson

neuro
thats fair enough,i do some times have doubts about things.a spiritual inquisitiveness seems to be innate in humans,all groups have it,pygmies to americans,is almost very human ever born in history[atheism is quite recent] deluded?a grand claim! anyway, why not enjoy life with delusions ,if they are that. i have looked for somewhere there are no delusions and cannot find any,at all levels we are ridden with ideas and concepts based on our past experience and learning.you said in an earlier post that the goal of philosophy is truth, i cannot find it ,every thing seems to be coloured by my perception and my delusions.i cannot find a self.i have nothing really to go on but my intuitions ,gut feelings and thoughts all of which are changable.can you honestly point me in the direction of truth and certainity.oneness and divinity seem right to me,it feels true and works.there is no evidence of it,it is purely a matter of faith in my case.i was raised as nonreligious and have arrived here myself.my veiws will change, im still young. there is no need to be so harsh and bitter. it will a person nowhere except to make their little ego feel better in its deluded superiority. there is a difference of opinion you believe that life is meaningless i do not.who is better?neither of us.
as for power of the now it is pseudo-philosophical and a bit icky but it genuinely made me a happier person, if you believe feeling good and having a positive outlook is in a way happiness.

solas

makes me think of the comment " I think therefore I think I am"

If anything thats what makes us humans "unique", we have the ability to choose how/what we think and in doing so we can change our perception of life and how we relate to it... if we want to.
"is life worth living?"
If you think life is worth living, than it most probably will be for you and you might find this reasoning increases your enjoyment level or sense of worth.
On the other hand, if you think life is a drag and that there is no purpose to it than I can't see how it will ever be enjoyable.
I suppose philosophy is about reasoning and if you can find one good reason why life is worth living more power to you, maybe realising that is purpose in itself..

simu

If people are going to discuss spirituality, I'd be interested to know what exactly they mean by it (no doubt, there will be differing views on exactly what it is).

Neuro

transperson wrote:

there is a difference of opinion you believe that life is meaningless i do not.who is better?neither of us.

I've always disliked the platitude "everyone is entitled to their own opinion". Opinions are worthless; the only opinions of any value are those that have some logical reasoning behind them. Opinions in this format:

"In my opinion X because Y..." are of infinately greater value than
"In my opinion Z".

Y can be analysed and the validity of the opinion verified.

e.g.

"In my opinion the world is round because the lower part of a ship disappears as it reaches the horizon" is far superior to "The world is flat".

By your reasoning, you could hold the opinion that the world is round, I could be of the opinion that the world is flat and neither of us would be wrong.

Neuro

Slow coach wrote:

To prefer being unhappy is hardly the mark of sanity.

Ah, quoting out of context! Have you ever considered a career in tabloid journalism?

Pherekydes

Neuro wrote:

"In my opinion X because Y..." are of infinately greater value than
"In my opinion Z".

That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it, however worthless it may be.

You're mixing up opinions with verifiable facts.

Opinions are subjective, and that's why everyone is entitled to one.

DadaKopf

Many would argue that facts are also opinions. Or, at least, the subjective and the objective are necessarily intertwined.

I subscribe to this idea.

SkepticOne

DadaKopf wrote:

Many would argue that facts are also opinions. Or, at least, the subjective and the objective are necessarily intertwined.

I subscribe to this idea.

That is interesting. Are opinions also facts?

Neuro

Slow coach wrote:

Opinions are subjective

And hence worthless! If everyone's opinions were of equal value regardless of their foundation we'd find ourselves in a quagmire of epistemological relativism; truth would have no value and it would render philosophy meaningless!

transperson

neuro
i ask again where is truth,in your opinion!!! or in supposed "fact" deduced through your logical reasoning,the only "true" way of knowing anything?

by what criteria do you deem something worthful or worthless?

can the value of something be judged by the rewards it gives to the particular people it effects or is emotional experience out of the question for you??

where is your Y evidence to support your claim X that you "know" that human existance is meaningless and random and that anybody who thinks it has some meaning is delusional?


i think that facts are just a set of assumptions about the world around us that happens to work and describe things well.so there is no real difference between fact and opinion,just opinions that work better and are accepted as fact [once upon a time it was a "fact" that the world was flat] . everybody is entitled to opinions and some work better than others.

in my eyes there is no real way that we humans can verify if life is meaningless and no divinity or unity exists so in that particular matter it is my beliefs and opinions against neuro's beliefs and opinions,which he seems to consider as "fact",without any evidence.

if neuro has evidence for his position then please present it,otherwise please do not be condecending towards others with different veiws as you have just as little basis to stand on other than your agrumentation.

magpie

we'd find ourselves in a quagmire of epistemological relativism

Oh no! not again!

Phil_321

Neuro wrote:

And hence worthless! If everyone's opinions were of equal value regardless of their foundation we'd find ourselves in a quagmire of epistemological relativism; truth would have no value and it would render philosophy meaningless!

Couldn't have put it better myself.

marvin2k

What gets me through is remembering back to a time when i was really once happy and that was when I was a kid , I didnt give a **** about anything except cartoons sweets and who was around to play with I was very very lucky to have great although not perfect (who is though ) parents and a happy enviroment I would drop my pants and piss anywhere and I could get hours of enjoyment just from running through a field of high grass or jumping off hay bales, real simple **** ,.it was a really simple happy fufilled existence for me .

all of a sudden things got complicated it all became a big race and the fun was gone.there was pressure to look good ,be cool , fit in ,earn money and as many people on this thread have pointed out to strive forward in careers and education like a blind man in thick fog just doing things for the god damn sake of it .

we could all learn a lot from kids they have the right attitude . next time you see a busker on the street watch the kids that pass dancing around him to the music . then watch the dudes in the buisiness suits and suitcases thundering past with their stressed heads . its not that the kids are immature or stupid to dance , its just that they havent been beaten down by society yet .the buisiness man doesnt walk by as he is more learned or better than them its because hes forgotten how to play .Never forget how to play .let go, watch the plastic bag floating in american beauty or let go of the steering wheel like in fight club .

elivsvonchiaing

Opinions are logically valid and arguable until you come up with paradoxes - or completely subjective sh1te like what's the best country to live in - where you get objectivity and subjectivity completely blurred into pure bullsh1t! ... It's too late at night for paradoxes debate etc. (translation - I'm fúcked /tired half cut)

Just my 5c is all!

SkepticOne

marvin2k wrote:

we could all learn a lot from kids they have the right attitude .

Or we could learn from the old. The advice from them is:
1. Ideally get a job with a good pension.
2. Look after your teeth.

bus77

tribble wrote:

So what am I overlooking?

The one word/rule that seems to link every living thing. Survive.

bus77

simu wrote:

If people are going to discuss spirituality, I'd be interested to know what exactly they mean by it (no doubt, there will be differing views on exactly what it is).

hmm I'll give it a wack..

Spirituality, is being able to see the outline of the system that makes everything go.

RedRules5

bus77 wrote:

The one word/rule that seems to link every living thing. Survive.

Should that be Procreate.

bus77

RedRules5 wrote:

Should that be Procreate.

Procreation is also a form of survival tactic, not only in the "more is better" sense, but also in adapting to the environment.

I hate it when people try to be deep and meaninful, but come asross as being misinformed.

Suicide is a waste. All it accomplishes is make people who care about you suffer. Its a selfish and stupid act. Maybe if you spent as much time reexaming your life as you do thinking about suicide you may find the thing that troubles you.
I'd be a liar if I said I never thought aabout killing myself, I have, when I was sixteen. Even back then I realised that I would never have do it because its a pointless exercise.

So grow up and get a life.

is_that_so

Events occur - rain falls, I sleep, I wake up; it is perception that makes the difference , that gives us our opinions and ultimately determines how we see ourselves in realtion to the rest of life. Once we understand we can make decisions as to how we want influence this perception. We can choose to be happy or miserable.

Happiness is a precarious peak that we can so easily fall from and a poor state to be in - contentment is a more realistic way to look at what we tend to call happy.

There are times when sadness is part of our lives, in relation to lost love, physical loss and pain. But we cannot permanently exist in that state, for that is the word. That is not life or living.

Misery can be its own best companion , there is nothing better than comforting ourselves and seeing everything else to blame for it.

Our life is about choices, some made for us , many we make ourselves. We need to be clear in our minds is the glass half-empty or half-full ? That is what makes life worth living